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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #710
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Saturday, January 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 710
In this issue:
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Pipes
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #709
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: antique dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: name calling
-áááááá MtMan-List: test
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: name calling
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Antique Dealers
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fwd: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: TEST POST (dont bother opening)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
-áááááá MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson
-áááááá MtMan-List: (no subject)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: [mlml] Re: cabin fever .
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:36:27 -0500 (EST)
From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pipes
Hardtack,thanks for the info on Missouri Mershams.Very interesting,I
still have a feeling
it was probably done before 1868. Its seems unlikely that one man just
suddenly invented something so simple but then again some one had to do
it! Anyone else?
M.
"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau
http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:52:02 -0500 (EST)
From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #709
Walt,good thought on the Lewis and Clark
angle.As I've stated before it just seems like to obvious an idea to
have taken so long to come up with especially amongst the Native Peoples
who have been smoking for so long a time! Let me know if you have any
other thoughts and I'll do the same. Thanks Again!
M.
"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau
http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:47:00 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
In a message dated 1/11/01 1:57:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
BrayHaven@aol.com writes:
<<you gotta be mighty careful what you say these days. Cause some people
spend a whole lotta their time just lookin' fer somethin to be offended by>>
and that's why we all love gettin' to the mountains........ Barney
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:51:49 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
Harddog, Thanks for your post. It was appreciated, by me, at least. I wasn't
personally offended, and certainly hope you weren't by my post. I wasn't
questioning your personal attitudes, and my comment about 'telling us how you
really feel' was definitely tongue-in-cheek.
The context you presented of the expression being a compliment and sign of
astute business sense in your area was enlightening, and opened my eyes to
the haste of my words, especially about a 'tirade'.
Hopeo you'll accept my apology as I accept yours, and that one day we have
the chance to share a fire... Humbly, Barney
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:52:46 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca>
Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
Well, I guess I am the antique here!
The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something
is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person
DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other
person's deficiency.
If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither
knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair.
If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over
price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is
too far away from the value.
I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers
in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl
but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that
much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered,
"Because that's all it is worth."
I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the
one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence
under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the
person I bought it from and shared the profit.
I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I
realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions
expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe
Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all.
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:56:57 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: antique dealers
I must disagree with Diane Best.
If an antique dealer is selling something you can surmise that it is
priced with what he feels is a fair profit margin over what he originally
paid. If you buy that $5000.00 Hawken for $300.00 you both have made a good
deal.
Keep in mind that buying from an antique shop or flea market does not
entail warranties. So, when you get home and start disassembling that
"original" and find out it is really a recent made gun, you may have gotten
$250.00 worth for your $300.00.
On the whole 'skinners are honest. That does not mean making a
profitable trade is dishonest either.
My 2 cents.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:05:55 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: name calling
Barney said,
<It's uncalled for and just plain offensive; certainly no less so than
using
the expression 'coon', which drew a prompt warning and reprimand.>
Agreed. There was also a recent reference to "descendants of Mussolini"
which I found inappropriate, rude and offensive.
Such things do not belong on this list or anywhere in civilized society.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 01 06:06:45 PST
From: rick dixon <slikrickabn@netscape.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: test
This is a test message for the list.
Thanks
rick
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:26:44 EST
From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
Personally, I continually wear a T-shirt that says:
"Politically Incorrect and Proud"
After all what is Political Correctness anyway?
Censorship! Seems the Constitution has been rewritten. No longer do we have
Freedom OF Speech, but Freedom FROM Speech.
My 2 cents which are most likely worth even less.
Longshot
"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
(Newly Redesigned)
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:27:02 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: name calling
In a message dated 1/12/2001 9:06:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
frankf@centurytel.net writes:
<< Agreed. There was also a recent reference to "descendants of Mussolini"
which I found inappropriate, rude and offensive.
Such things do not belong on this list or anywhere in civilized society.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas >>
Give me a BREAK, puuuulease. For a few days on this list I actually thought
there were rational, intelligent people here. Apparently not all. I guess
you have to have tough skin to live in Arkansas though. If I'd asked if the
gun was a cheap itallian gun, you would really have been offended wouldn't
you. Get a life, Frank!
Greg S.
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:52:49 EST
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
LODGEPOLE writes:
> Personally, I continually wear a T-shirt that says:
> "Politically Incorrect and Proud"
Yeah, and it's about time you washed that damn thing. It's starting to smell
worse than you. You can wear your bowling shirt while it's in the laundry.
Glad to see you survived the snowstorm. How many of your dogs got kilt when
the front porch collapsed?
Fox
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:03:20 -0600
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Antique Dealers
>Really? One thing I had always heard about Buckskinners was their sense of
>honesty. Guess that just aint so. If you can sucker the guy and he doesn't
>know he has been suckered, it's ok to do it? Sorry fellas. I can't do it.
>I'd suggest to the dealer that he do some more
>homework.
We're honest, but we're also practical. A 5000.00 rifle for 300.00. You
bet. We've all made deals like that before, although maybe not at that
magnitude. How ofter have we bought nice things at bargain basement
prices, like the original 1880s buffalo coat and matching mittens I bought
for 135.00 at a flea market. I didn't "sucker" her out of it. I paid her
asking price. Do you think I should have said "Ma'am, you could get at
least 500.00 for this." No way. It's not cheating if the dealer is making
the offer. Anyone in that business better know the business. For all we
know the antique may have thhought he was overpricing it (certainly he
didn't pay 300.00 for it). I would let him know *after* I made the
purchase, (not in a gloating way) to wake him up that he'd better do more
homework. I'd help him all I can. That would be my service to him, and
I'd be glad to do it. If I do it in a sincere way, I can walk away with a
clear conscience.
Ad, and others are right. There are many types of honesty, but a bargain
is a bargain. Our hobby is expensive enough. There's no reason that we
should turn down good deals when they present themselves. I don't.
Cheers,
HBC
**********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu
806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
*** Living History . . . Because It's There ***
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:37:31 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
> The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what
something
> is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person
> DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other
> person's deficiency.
I still fail to see where anyone was cheated. If I pay what a seller is
asking for something, and
he/she makes a profit, and is happy, then how is it taking advantage of some
one? I see it all
the time at the Flea Market here. My wife and I make our living buying
items at garage sales
and flea markets and reselling them on eBay and such. I have many times
picked up a piece
of West Virginia glass for $40 for as little as $3. I paid the seller what
they were asking and
did not hggle on the price. Why would I say... "Oh my, that is worth $40,
not $3, so here is
$40 for it."...?? At an auction, my wife bought a box lot of books... in
this was a signed copy
of a book from the late 1800s. She paid $7.50 for the box... the book sold
for $73. Are you
saying she should have gone to the auctioneer and given him the profit? Not
likely!! That is
called business in my opinion.
> I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10,
the
> one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of
Independence
> under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the
> person I bought it from and shared the profit.
Let me understand this... you buy a picture at an old second hand shop, and
behind
the pix is a true copy of the Declaration of Independence. You turn around
and sell
the copy for say $6,000,000 via Southerby's. You are going to go back to
this dealer
and give him say half the profit? Why?? Neither of you knew it was there,
and at the
end of the original deal, you were both happy... he made a profit on the
picture, and
you got a picture you wanted. Neither of you knew that the copy was there in
the first
place. How is that cheating anyone if you keep the profit?
> Maybe Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all.
Dear Lady, I disagree with you on that. Buckskinning is full of wonderful
people, and
truly honest people... as I pointed out in a previous post. I think that
some of us just
do not have ideals that correspond with yours, and if that is the case, then
you are in
for a rude awakening in real life, for not many will ever meausre up to your
standards.
No matter what I have done over the years, I can still look at myselfin the
mirror in the
morning when I shave. My father always taught me... "To thine own self be
true..." I have
lived by that, and am not ashamed of anything I have done in my life...
including paying
$3 for a $40 piece of W Va glass.
Ad Miller
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:02:48 -0600
From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
> Personally, I continually wear a T-shirt that says:
>
> "Politically Incorrect and Proud"
>
> Longshot
Longshot,
Where did you get your t-shirt?
Must have one. No.....better get two.
I can wear the clean one while the
dirty one is in the washer. I don't
have a bowling t-shirt. <G>
Victoria
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:36:51 -0500 (EST)
From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS
- --WebTV-Mail-6607-2360
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Thought this might be of interest to the list!
Michael A. Smith
"In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau
http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN
- --WebTV-Mail-6607-2360
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ETAuAhUAzCnS52A7QPyjeWEYw7o1UFXoV/ACFQDClomVtztGIPS8xzF48bBwNeobYQ==
From: TheAdventuresof@webtv.net (Bing)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:25:07 -0500 (EST)
To: Spiritofthewood@webtv.net
Subject: Fwd: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS
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Der Bingle@
http://community.webtv.net/TheAdventuresof/BINGSUNIVERSE
Life is just a bowl of cherrys...so live...
and laugh...at it ALL!!!
- --WebTV-Mail-9255-1106
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From: ana@athena.csd.net (ANA)
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Subject: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS
Date: 11 Jan 2001 15:14:48 GMT
Organization: Computer Systems Design Company
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Transcript No. 2018
HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS
By Thomas L. LeMarre
When it comes to buying power, we're used to thinking in terms of
dollars and cents. But in some areas of Canada, there was a time when
goods were priced in beaver skins.
In 1670, England's King Charles II granted the Hudson's Bay Company a
charter to operate in the St. Lawrence River area. The activities of the
Hudson's Bay Company traders made Native North Americans aware of the
negotiability of furs--especially beaver skins. So the beaver, not the
dollar, became the monetary standard.
In the early 1800s, the Hudson's Bay Company issued beaver-shaped
copper tokens valued at one beaver skin. Wooden tokens were also used at
various times. They were branded "H-B," for Hudson's Bay, and "1-B," for
"one beaver skin."
The Hudson's Bay Company issued a new type of brass token in the
1850s. On one side were the company's coat of arms and an oak wreath. The
other side was inscribed with the initials "H B," "E M" and "N B." "E M"
referred to the East Main district, which now includes parts of northern
Ontario and west central Quebec. For many years it was the Hudson's Bay
Company's most profitable district.
The Hudson's Bay Company tokens were issued in one-eighth, one-fourth,
one-half and one beaver denominations. But because they were easily lost,
they proved unpopular--and were soon discontinued.
Updated versions of the Hudson's Bay Company tokens made a brief
comeback after World War II--when aluminum "counters" were issued with the
inscription "H B C" and a numeral representing the denomination. But this
time, it was in dollars and cents--instead of beaver skins.
Today's program was written by Thomas LaMarre. "Money Talks" is
produced and underwritten by the American Numismatic Association, in
Colorado Springs, America's coin club for over a century. Visit us on the
web at www.money.org.
- --WebTV-Mail-9255-1106--
- --WebTV-Mail-6607-2360--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:52:04 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
I'm getting drawn into an off topic conversation, but "honesty" is a
timeless issue, I reckon, and one that is important to lovers of history.
The "question" reduces to: is it dishonest to pay someone's asking price
when you believe the item is worth far more?
There are actually several issues at play here: honesty, justice, and
generosity. In order to think clearly, one make must clear distinctions
between different virtues.
"Honesty" is a respect for the truth, and a commitment to speak the truth
at all times. According to this, a customer who meets the seller's price
without discussion has not lied or evaded the truth, and therefore has acted
honestly. If the buyer and seller engaged in a discussion about the merits
and "fair market price" of the article, honesty would then come into play.
"Justice" is a respect for the rights of others, which in this case,
reduces to the fact that buyer and seller are free to voluntarily accept or
reject each other's offers. Since the buyer has not placed any pressure on
the seller, nor attempted to defraud them by misleading them, there is no
injustice in paying the seller what they voluntarily chose to sell the item
for. "Justice" in this case does not REQUIRE the buyer to bring new facts to
the seller's attention. If the buyer or seller attempts to drive the price
in their favor by making fraudulent claims, or attempting to intimidate the
other, we experience dishonesty and injustice.
"Generosity" is a willingness to give to someone above and beyond their
rights in the matter. A cash-and-carry transaction involves certain rights.
The buyer has the right to own the item as represented, free and clear after
payment, and the seller has the right to be full payment in legal tender.
If, after purchase, the buyer is so thrilled that they feel impelled to GIVE
the seller extra, that is very generous, but has nothing to do with honesty
or justice. It is a separate virtue.
It is apparent that Dianne tends to use "honesty" and "generosity" in a
similar manner. This is her personal philosophy, which clearly differs from
some of the others on this thread.
What does this have to do with "buckskinning"? Many followers of this
movement are trying to escape modern confusion and "get back to" a simpler
time where these distinctions were easier to see. One of the disoveries you
make by living "on the ground" with simple technology is that facts matter,
wishful thinking doesn't get you anywhere, and you can't support your loved
ones if you don't see to your own welfare first.
In our historical period of interest (roughly, 1750 to 1840),
philosophers were using logic and making a serious attempt to get clear on
issues such as these. Our constitution, its unprecedented identification and
support of personal rights, and the resulting outburst of freedom,
productivity, and joy were the direct result of this "age of enlightenment".
One of the erosions which has occured over the years, is the gradual
conviction that people have a "right" to receive generosity. This has led to
our modern "nanny state" where the government is "supposed" to take care of
us all. Aside from the question of the government's competence to do so, the
money to do this is "not theirs to give". This stems from confusing
generosity, a virtue of VOLUNTARY giving, with honesty and justice, virtues
which are REQUIRED for a civil society.
In short, much of this discussion has stemmed from differing definitions
for the term honesty. We can't make each other use the same definitions, but
we can head off fruitless argument when it's apparent we use a word to mean
different things.
Respectfully submitted
Pat Quilter
- -----Original Message-----
From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:53 AM
To: 'MountainMan Digest'
Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
Well, I guess I am the antique here!
The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something
is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person
DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other
person's deficiency.
If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither
knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair.
If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over
price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is
too far away from the value.
I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers
in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl
but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that
much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered,
"Because that's all it is worth."
I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the
one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence
under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the
person I bought it from and shared the profit.
I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I
realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions
expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe
Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all.
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:31:19 -0800
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
Thanks, Pat. Always good to hear from you.
Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
> I'm getting drawn into an off topic conversation, but "honesty" is a
> timeless issue, I reckon, and one that is important to lovers of history.
> The "question" reduces to: is it dishonest to pay someone's asking
price
> when you believe the item is worth far more?
> There are actually several issues at play here: honesty, justice, and
> generosity. In order to think clearly, one make must clear distinctions
> between different virtues.
> "Honesty" is a respect for the truth, and a commitment to speak the
truth
> at all times. According to this, a customer who meets the seller's price
> without discussion has not lied or evaded the truth, and therefore has
acted
> honestly. If the buyer and seller engaged in a discussion about the merits
> and "fair market price" of the article, honesty would then come into play.
>
> "Justice" is a respect for the rights of others, which in this case,
> reduces to the fact that buyer and seller are free to voluntarily accept
or
> reject each other's offers. Since the buyer has not placed any pressure on
> the seller, nor attempted to defraud them by misleading them, there is no
> injustice in paying the seller what they voluntarily chose to sell the
item
> for. "Justice" in this case does not REQUIRE the buyer to bring new facts
to
> the seller's attention. If the buyer or seller attempts to drive the price
> in their favor by making fraudulent claims, or attempting to intimidate
the
> other, we experience dishonesty and injustice.
> "Generosity" is a willingness to give to someone above and beyond their
> rights in the matter. A cash-and-carry transaction involves certain
rights.
> The buyer has the right to own the item as represented, free and clear
after
> payment, and the seller has the right to be full payment in legal tender.
> If, after purchase, the buyer is so thrilled that they feel impelled to
GIVE
> the seller extra, that is very generous, but has nothing to do with
honesty
> or justice. It is a separate virtue.
> It is apparent that Dianne tends to use "honesty" and "generosity" in a
> similar manner. This is her personal philosophy, which clearly differs
from
> some of the others on this thread.
> What does this have to do with "buckskinning"? Many followers of this
> movement are trying to escape modern confusion and "get back to" a simpler
> time where these distinctions were easier to see. One of the disoveries
you
> make by living "on the ground" with simple technology is that facts
matter,
> wishful thinking doesn't get you anywhere, and you can't support your
loved
> ones if you don't see to your own welfare first.
> In our historical period of interest (roughly, 1750 to 1840),
> philosophers were using logic and making a serious attempt to get clear on
> issues such as these. Our constitution, its unprecedented identification
and
> support of personal rights, and the resulting outburst of freedom,
> productivity, and joy were the direct result of this "age of
enlightenment".
> One of the erosions which has occured over the years, is the gradual
> conviction that people have a "right" to receive generosity. This has led
to
> our modern "nanny state" where the government is "supposed" to take care
of
> us all. Aside from the question of the government's competence to do so,
the
> money to do this is "not theirs to give". This stems from confusing
> generosity, a virtue of VOLUNTARY giving, with honesty and justice,
virtues
> which are REQUIRED for a civil society.
> In short, much of this discussion has stemmed from differing
definitions
> for the term honesty. We can't make each other use the same definitions,
but
> we can head off fruitless argument when it's apparent we use a word to
mean
> different things.
> Respectfully submitted
> Pat Quilter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca]
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:53 AM
> To: 'MountainMan Digest'
> Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
>
>
> Well, I guess I am the antique here!
>
> The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what
something
> is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person
> DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other
> person's deficiency.
>
> If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither
> knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair.
>
> If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over
> price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price
is
> too far away from the value.
>
> I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm
labourers
> in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl
> but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that
> much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad
answered,
> "Because that's all it is worth."
>
> I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10,
the
> one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of
Independence
> under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the
> person I bought it from and shared the profit.
>
> I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than
I
> realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions
> expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read.
Maybe
> Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all.
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:04:16 -0500
From: Tim Jewell <tjewell@home.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: TEST POST (dont bother opening)
Hello to anyone who bothered opening this. Sorry but I have been having
problems posting and receiving to the list. I am getting some posts now
but need to see if I can send.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:03:12 -0600
From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
Mr. Quilter,
We don't get to hear enough from you,
but when we do, you always have a good
word.
Victoria
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:34:50 -0500 (EST)
From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson
where Johnson, wife Swan, and "son" Caleb are eating what looks like
some sort of large biscuit with what appeared to be dried meat chunks?
(pemmican?) in it. What exactly could this item be called?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:19:00 EST
From: Wind1838@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson
I don't know the answer to your question, but I read the book, I believe,
"Mountain Man," that Jeremiah Johnson hails from . . . my point here is that
when Jeremiah (Robert Redford) returns and finds his pregnant Indian wife and
"picked up" son murdered by the Indians. . . in the book he doesn't just find
them dead. He finds them eaten by wolves, with only their chewed up
bodies/bones remaining. He takes their bones with him and buries them later
at a place he finds appropriate for their burial.
To me it is a much more violent and powerful image than just returning when
they have been murdered. The carrying of their bones is profound.
Just my thoughts.
Laura Glise
Wind1838 (that would be the Rendezvous) @aol.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:14:35 -0500
From: Tim Jewell <tjewell@home.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)
auth bfc61be3 subscribe hist_text tjewell@home.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:14:29 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [mlml] Re: cabin fever .
I got a cure for my cabin fever.... leaving in the morning for Plant
City, FL, and the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! I'll be unsubscribing while I am
gone... Heh... forgot to last time, and came back to over 1300 emails!!!
Took me several days just to sort thru them all... *laughs* Now, with 3
lists, I definately need to remember.
Once again, an invite to all who are going to the Alafia, stop by the
camp... Would love to meet andyone I haven't met yet, and rekindle
friendships with those of you that I have met. I know Bill Marney and Hawk
are going to be staying in my extra tent for a few days.... got room for a
couple more if need be... *grins*... And I promise not to pick up any road
kill for the pot on the way down... well... maybe only fresh road kill... if
the buzzards won't play with it, it won't be in the pot... I promise!
See y'all in about 3 weeks...
Ad Miller
Alderson, WV
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:16:17 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
Pat,
Well said, The term "Buyer be Ware" goes both ways.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
>To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers
>Date: Fri, Jan 12, 2001, 11:52 AM
>
> I'm getting drawn into an off topic conversation, but "honesty" is a
>timeless issue, I reckon, and one that is important to lovers of history.
> The "question" reduces to: is it dishonest to pay someone's asking price
>when you believe the item is worth far more?
> There are actually several issues at play here: honesty, justice, and
>generosity. In order to think clearly, one make must clear distinctions
>between different virtues.
> "Honesty" is a respect for the truth, and a commitment to speak the truth
>at all times. According to this, a customer who meets the seller's price
>without discussion has not lied or evaded the truth, and therefore has acted
>honestly. If the buyer and seller engaged in a discussion about the merits
>and "fair market price" of the article, honesty would then come into play.
>
> "Justice" is a respect for the rights of others, which in this case,
>reduces to the fact that buyer and seller are free to voluntarily accept or
>reject each other's offers. Since the buyer has not placed any pressure on
>the seller, nor attempted to defraud them by misleading them, there is no
>injustice in paying the seller what they voluntarily chose to sell the item
>for. "Justice" in this case does not REQUIRE the buyer to bring new facts to
>the seller's attention. If the buyer or seller attempts to drive the price
>in their favor by making fraudulent claims, or attempting to intimidate the
>other, we experience dishonesty and injustice.
> "Generosity" is a willingness to give to someone above and beyond their
>rights in the matter. A cash-and-carry transaction involves certain rights.
>The buyer has the right to own the item as represented, free and clear after
>payment, and the seller has the right to be full payment in legal tender.
>If, after purchase, the buyer is so thrilled that they feel impelled to GIVE
>the seller extra, that is very generous, but has nothing to do with honesty
>or justice. It is a separate virtue.
> It is apparent that Dianne tends to use "honesty" and "generosity" in a
>similar manner. This is her personal philosophy, which clearly differs from
>some of the others on this thread.
> What does this have to do with "buckskinning"? Many followers of this
>movement are trying to escape modern confusion and "get back to" a simpler
>time where these distinctions were easier to see. One of the disoveries you
>make by living "on the ground" with simple technology is that facts matter,
>wishful thinking doesn't get you anywhere, and you can't support your loved
>ones if you don't see to your own welfare first.
> In our historical period of interest (roughly, 1750 to 1840),
>philosophers were using logic and making a serious attempt to get clear on
>issues such as these. Our constitution, its unprecedented identification and
>support of personal rights, and the resulting outburst of freedom,
>productivity, and joy were the direct result of this "age of enlightenment".
>One of the erosions which has occured over the years, is the gradual
>conviction that people have a "right" to receive generosity. This has led to
>our modern "nanny state" where the government is "supposed" to take care of
>us all. Aside from the question of the government's competence to do so, the
>money to do this is "not theirs to give". This stems from confusing
>generosity, a virtue of VOLUNTARY giving, with honesty and justice, virtues
>which are REQUIRED for a civil society.
> In short, much of this discussion has stemmed from differing definitions
>for the term honesty. We can't make each other use the same definitions, but
>we can head off fruitless argument when it's apparent we use a word to mean
>different things.
>Respectfully submitted
>Pat Quilter
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca]
>Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:53 AM
>To: 'MountainMan Digest'
>Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
>
>
>Well, I guess I am the antique here!
>
>The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something
>is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person
>DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other
>person's deficiency.
>
>If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither
>knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair.
>
>If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over
>price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is
>too far away from the value.
>
>I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers
>in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl
>but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that
>much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered,
>"Because that's all it is worth."
>
>I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the
>one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence
>under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the
>person I bought it from and shared the profit.
>
>I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I
>realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions
>expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe
>Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all.
>
>Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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