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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:23:40 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pipes (Micmac)
I was more interested in the Possible use of Corn Cob by
> anyone in the pre 1840 period Native or otherwise!
> Your Humble Servant,
> M.A.Smith
Good question. Sparks this thought. What do you suppose the corn cobs left
over from crops grown on the upper Missouri were used for bout the time they
hosted Lewis and Clark for the winter of 1804 - 1805. Plenty of smokers
along with tobacco. Women smoked. What did they use?
Walt
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:23:52 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: interesting pictures
Lee
I'd bet the ill fated Brown Bess was loaded with modern smokeless
powder.
Is the fellow who did it still in recovery? [and I don't mean from the
blow-up incident]
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:41:07 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some Interesting Pictures
In a message dated 1/10/01 11:03:11 PM, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes:
<< Makes for some sobering viewing. >>
Lee....Great pictures! .....but something about the gene pool comes to mind.
That, I hope wasn't an original Bess, was it???!?
Ymos,
Magpie
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:43:54 EST
From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Bents Fort Redux
- --part1_a6.e7ede9f.278f58ea_boundary
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About three years ago, I inquired about Bent's Fort for the purpose of having
a reunion of the descendents of the Bent St Vrain families. Well......i was
initially told that NPS was not into this..however we have contacted the
Superintendent at Bents Fort (Mr. Hill) who said that the BENTs had a reunion
in '87 -- thus, plans are now in motion to have an all out July reunion of
the St Vrains, Bents, Maxwells, Carsons, well....EVERYONE who is related to
these folks. I understand there is a rendezvous in the area around this
time. Does anyone know any details? Does anybody want to come? Let me know!
Thanks!
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#400040" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">About three years ago, I inquired about Bent's Fort for the purpose of having <BR>a reunion of the descendents of the Bent St Vrain families. Well......i was <BR>initially told that NPS was not into this..however we have contacted the <BR>Superintendent at Bents Fort (Mr. Hill) who said that the BENTs had a reunion <BR>in '87 -- thus, plans are now in motion to have an all out July reunion of <BR>the St Vrains, Bents, Maxwells, Carsons, well....EVERYONE who is related to <BR>these folks. I understand there is a rendezvous in the area around this <BR>time. Does anyone know any details? Does anybody want to come? Let me know! <BR> Thanks!</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:46:09 -0600
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
Dianne wrote:
Hard dog wrote "I am not about to explain that his original Hawken rifle
priced at $300
is really worth $5,000....."
Really? One thing I had always heard about Buckskinners was their sense of
honesty. Guess that just aint so. If you can sucker the guy and he doesn't
know he has been suckered, it's ok to do it?
Sorry fellas. I can't do it. I'd suggest to the dealer that he do some more
homework.
I don't want anybody cheating me and I damned well wouldn't cheat somebody
else.
Shame on you boys!
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
Dianne,
First of all I have been a storefront dealer of antiques and used guns for
35 plus years. I am not one of those dealers who is known as a bedroom
dealer. I don't sell out of my garage, my basement or my bedroom, I own a
building downtown on the main street of town, I pay real estate taxes, and
charge and pay State sales taxes and hope to end up each year with a profit.
I learned my business by "The School Of Hard Knocks" method before there
were price guides for everything under the sun. I never try and "Jew"
anybody down on a price they are offering an item for. I either pay the
asking price or walk away. This may seem cruel and dishonest to you, but I
learned a long time ago that it is best to not try and tell some other
dealer about their prices or their merchandise, it usually only serves to
make them mad. Anybody who is trying to operate in the antiques market
should be intelligent enough to do their homework, identify their
merchandise and do enough research to be able to establish a price that is
realistic and reasonable. If someone is not capable of doing that then they
should not be in the antique business, period.
I am a legitimate antique dealer who at present makes a good portion of his
living running a legitimate antique business. I am not some casual antiquer
who gathers up some amount of garage sale merchandise and tries to make a
few extra bucks by going to an occasional flea market.
There is absolutely nothing illegal or immoral in just paying what someone
asks for their merchandise. When one your local stores has a "going out of
business sale" I am sure you don't go to the sale and demand to pay the full
price. Now if a person had an original Hawken in his store for $5,000 and I
went in and jewed him down to $300, by telling him that I was an expert in
antique arms and that this item was a copy and not an original, then that
would be unscrupulous and dishonest.
Being a legitimate, tax paying, antique dealer or used gun dealer is no
different than running any other type of retail business, you try and
purchase your inventory for the best price. Many people like you see antique
dealers as part time hobby business people and expect us to give large
discounts on the merchandise we sell. Some people even have the audacity to
ask for as much as a 50% discount on items. How often do you go to the
grocery store and try and get them to sell you your groceries for less than
the marked price?
You said, "If you can sucker the guy and he doesn't know he has been
suckered, is it all right to do?" It would be suckering a guy if you
recognized that his item was worth more than the asking price and then
trying to jew him done some more, or you sold a customer a "Genuine Hawken"
that was really a Lyman Great Plains Rifle, a Hawken Shop Rifle or a
Thompson Center Hawken. I don't do either of these.
When you are at a rendezvous where all those honest buckskinners are do you
ever ask them to come down on their prices? Do you ever see things on
someone blanket that you think is under priced and tell them so? Have you
ever been to a rendezvous? If you have then you will have noticed the
buckskinner's penchant for trading items. Do you know that the definition
for "Trade" is "the exchange of items between individuals where each
individual feels that he got the better of the deal". I have never seen two
people trading where each is trying to give more than is asked because they
think they are getting the best of the deal, have you?
In the last 35 years I have sold some, out of ignorance, for far less than
what they were worth on the open market. Did I think I had been cheated by
the purchaser? NO! I sold the items for more than I paid for the them, made
a profit and learned a lesson in the process.
I don't know where you are from, but I live in the United States where the
free enterprise system is alive and well and has proven to be the best
economic system in the world. Adhering to the principles of the free
enterprise system is what allows me to purchase that $5,000 Hawken for $300
and not feel guilty or in actuality have cheated the seller.
YMH&OS,
Harddog
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:51:29 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
In a message dated 1/11/01 9:22:41 AM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes:
<< Shame on you boys!
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) >>
Well....... I'm shocked too, Dianne!
Ymos,
Magpie
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:00:45 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pipes (Micmac)
M.A. Smith, I have an old 'Missouri Meerschaum" (cob pipe) made by the
H.Tibbs & Son MFG CO. Trade Mark Registered Jan 23 1883. Patented July 9
1878. I bought it at the old factory store(or maybe it was just an
antique store there) in Washington, Mo (I think that's where it was)
While I was on a canoe trek from Ft Osage to St Charles. I think I heard
that they went out of business. Perhaps a search on Missouri Meershaum
Cob Pipes might bring some results? This all the info. I have on it...
hope it helps. hardtack
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:17:00 -0800
From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some Interesting Pictures
What kinda gun was it?
I think it was a Track, or some such. The sad part about this whole incident
was the way the fella handled the situation.... just brought back the pieces,
shoved it at the owner, and said here's your gun.
As fairminded and gentle a Celt as I like to believe I am... I think I'd a
lifted his hair... not for the accident, but for the way it was handled
afterwards..... credit goes to the owner for not running him through. Needless
to say, that fella probably doesn't get invited over to dinner by the owner
anymore!
Most of the folks I've talked to seem to think it was modern powder.... I would
have thought that modern would have destroyed the breech area before the ball
could have traveled that far up the barrell?
It, and the powder horn, now travel with my good friend Tony Roberts of
MountainTop Trading Co. as a safetly display and warning to others.
Regards from Idaho
Lee Newbill
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:29:06 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pipes (Micmac)
I did a google search and found this........ hardtack
History of the Corn Cob Pipe
It all started in 1868.
A fur trapper was passing through the little town of Washington,
Missouri, located on the banks of the Missouri River. The trapper asked a
renowned woodworker by the name of Henry Tibbe to make him a cool, sweet
smoking pipe.
Mr. Tibbe knw that the local fruit woods were too soft to provide a dry
sweet smoke. So, he decided to experiment with corn cob. He figured that
a cob, like Meerschaum, should be porous and light. Henry Tibbe worked
throught the night and when morning arrived, he had fashioned the world`s
first Corn Cob Pipe.
The huge-as-a-bear trapper at first was shocked and indignant. But when
he lit up, he was pleasantly surprised to discover that the Corn Cob Pipe
gave his tobacco a cool, sweet taste. He was so pleased that he told Mr.
Tibbe to make him six more pipes. Soon the word was passed around about
Tibbe`s discovery and he was flooded with orders for pipes. He no longer
had time for wood carving and instead he concentrated on making Corn Cob
Pipes. He formed the Missouri Meerschaum Company in July 1872 and on
July9, 1878, the company was awarded a patent from the United States
Government.
Today, millions of men (and women) all over the world enjoy the same
cool, sweet smoke of a Missouri Meerschaum Pipe as did the trapper back
in 1868
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:15:28 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
In a message dated 1/11/01 10:47:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
harddog@mediaone.net writes:
'I never try and "Jew" anybody down on a price they are offering an item
for...'
'...and I went in and jewed him down to $300'
'...and then trying to jew him done some more'
Don't hold back Harddog, why don't you tell us how you really feel? This
kind of tirade is insulting to many, including believers in any religion, and
I would think against the rules of the list.
It's uncalled for and just plain offensive; certainly no less so than using
the expression 'coon', which drew a prompt warning and reprimand.
Barney
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:51:50 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
In a message dated 1/11/2001 12:48:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
admiller@brier.net writes:
<< Please note, if the dealer was only asking $300 for it, he probably gave
the
owner a MAXIMUM of $150 for it in the first place. Now, if he has a price
tag of $300 on it, that tells me he is willing to accept that amount for it.
I fail to see where any dishonesty comes in here. Was the dealer dishonest
because he only paid the guy $150 for the Hawken? No >>
I agree with this totally. From the antique dealers I've known (I was one),
they would stick it to their own mothers to make a buck. They brag to their
friends about the Stradivarius or whatever they bought from some poor slob
for $50. Not all, but the huge majority. If you pay a dealer's asking
price, it's different from the widow who brings that Hawken to you and asks
you to give her a fair price for her departed husband's pride & joy. I
always hated that and often gave them more than I should have (never got a
Hawken, but a lot of guns). It's the dealer's responsibility to research
something before they put a price on it. Those that don't just put a hefty
profit on it and not worry about the research. You won't see many of these.
More often it's the "spaghetti" caplock muzzle loader that was "carried by
Daniel Boone" and he got it from his ggg grandson blah, blah etc.
Greg Sefton
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:02:59 -0600
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tirade???
"It's uncalled for and just plain offensive; certainly no less so than using
the expression 'coon', which drew a prompt warning and reprimand."
Barney,
Perhaps you are right. I don't know where you are from. I am from an area of
the country that has the largest population of Polish Jews in the United
States and here the words that I used and that you take offense to are
considered a compliment and tribute to the astute business sense of the
locals of Jewish decent. The term that you mentioned is a derogatory term
associated with people of "supposedly" lower class, lower morals and lower
intelligence that are held in disdain by the speaker. I don't feel this way.
I don't use that word and never have. If you are of the Jewish faith and I
have offended you then I apologize.
"Don't hold back Harddog, why don't you tell us how you really feel?"
Whats the point Barney? Didn't you just tell me how you feel and didn't
Dianne tell me just how she felt in her answer to my message????
I am sure that there is also some list rule against someone insinuating that
some other list member is dishonest in their business dealings?? I
remain.......
YMH&OS,
Harddog
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:04:35 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some Interesting Pictures
In a message dated 1/11/2001 2:12:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bluethistle@potlatch.com writes:
<< I think it was a Track, or some such. The sad part about this whole
incident
was the way the fella handled the situation.... just brought back the pieces,
shoved it at the owner, and said here's your gun.
As fairminded and gentle a Celt as I like to believe I am... I think I'd a
lifted his hair... not for the accident, but for the way it was handled
afterwards..... credit goes to the owner for not running him through.
Needless
to say, that fella probably doesn't get invited over to dinner by the owner
anymore! >>
Now if that was down here in FL, the guy who brought the gun back would have
his lawyer with him and in the process of suing the guy who lent him the
"defective" gun. I knew a guy who accidentally loaded a bunch of 7mm mag
shells with pistol powder. Blew up the Ruger 77 and it blew exactly as it
was supposed to; through the magazine box and ruptured the barrel. Ruger
offered the guy a new gun and to pay his doctor bills but he had gottena
lawyer in the meantime and they were about to file a lawsuit. I had broken
down one of the rounds and found it was pistol powder (win 630 instead of
785) and told the lawyer I'd be testifying for Ruger and they dropped the
suit.
Greg Sefton
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:56:02 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
In a message dated 1/11/2001 3:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LivingInThePast@aol.com writes:
<< Don't hold back Harddog, why don't you tell us how you really feel? This
kind of tirade is insulting to many, including believers in any religion,
and
I would think against the rules of the list.
It's uncalled for and just plain offensive; certainly no less so than using
the expression 'coon', which drew a prompt warning and reprimand.
Barney >>
He's right, you know Harddog, you gotta be mighty careful what you say these
days. Cause some people spend a whole lotta their time just lookin' fer
somethin to be offended by (whether it was meant thataway or not). And, as
you know, if they look hard enough, they're gonna find something. They sure
woulda been in hog heaven at a rendezvous with all those insults and "N"
words flying around. They would have spent all their time bristled up in
righteous indignation (and loving it). You gotta be HC AND PC these days :o).
Greg
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:44:18 -0800
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
The interesting thing about cyber conversations is that they are written
down. In anger or in righteous indignation, someone might use a phrase or
adjective that expresses just how they feel. Often as not, it's one they've
used before or has been used frequently enough at home to spring to mind.
The nice thing about written responses is that you have time to think about
what you're writing. You can choose the words you want to use. You can
punch spell check and get it right. And you can reread what you've written
to make sure you're getting what you really want to say across. I'm
assuming that this is what happened. Harddog chose just the exact words to
express what he wanted to say. To "Jew" a person down is a insulting term
for an disreputable business transaction. It reflects upon the culture
labeled and the person using the term. The fact that Harddog
made a point of saying he doesn't use those disreputable methods in his
business transactions points up the fact that those words "to Jew down" was
just what he wanted to say.
I think Harddog was right to be sensitive about what could have been a slur
against his profession. It think he was wrong to choose to use a slur
against a culture as a rebuttal. Let's let his "apology" stand and get off
this discussion. But be aware, this is a public list and ALL are invited to
participate. Consideration of that will keep the exchange going. I'd
recommend everyone reread what they write before they push "send".
Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <BrayHaven@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
> In a message dated 1/11/2001 3:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> LivingInThePast@aol.com writes:
>
> << Don't hold back Harddog, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
This
> kind of tirade is insulting to many, including believers in any religion,
> and
> I would think against the rules of the list.
>
> It's uncalled for and just plain offensive; certainly no less so than
using
> the expression 'coon', which drew a prompt warning and reprimand.
>
> Barney >>
>
> He's right, you know Harddog, you gotta be mighty careful what you say
these
> days. Cause some people spend a whole lotta their time just lookin' fer
> somethin to be offended by (whether it was meant thataway or not). And,
as
> you know, if they look hard enough, they're gonna find something. They
sure
> woulda been in hog heaven at a rendezvous with all those insults and "N"
> words flying around. They would have spent all their time bristled up in
> righteous indignation (and loving it). You gotta be HC AND PC these days
:o).
>
> Greg
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:08:38 -0600
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
Larry,
After reading your message I couldn't understand whether you were half
heartedly defending me or trying to roll me through the hot coals one more
time.
Perhaps our paths will cross sometime, as I am an AMM member, and then you
will find that I am really a nice person who harbors no predjudice toward
any race or nationality.
I remain.....
YMH&OS,
Harddog
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:17:43 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tirade???
Ok... I have a suggestion... Let it drop here!!! ....before this gets into
a flame war. This is supposed to be a list for passing knowledge and to
interact with others.... How about we do that? Many of the terms used 200
years ago, are considered to be derogatory now... I find myself slipping
into the venacular of the times in my writings, but I mean no ofense to
anyone. Can we try to remember that...
Ad Miller
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:34:19 EST
From: Traphand@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers
In this day and age we must unfortunately or fortunately, whichever
you tend to think, watch or "p's and q's". But being brought up
in an age where certain terms were accepted and the norm, using
those terms can be a hard thing to lose.
I'm not criticizing Harddog for his vocabulary, as I'm one that
more or likely has used the same terms quite innocently. However,
it has gotten to the point where you need to watch everything you
say as everyone is getting ticked off if they take your wording in
the wrong way.
At my place of employment, I was called up to H.R. the week I
started after I innocently walked into an office, saw a lady working
there, and cheerfully said "Good morning young lady. How are
you today?" She instantly told me she was not a young lady (she
was about 30-35), had worked too hard to obtain the position she
was currently in, and took my comment as a highly offensive one.
Course I could have responded incorrectly back, but didn't.
We are living in an age where "Everything" could be construed as
"inpolitically correct". Perhaps we need to learn to read things
and accept comments with a "grain of salt". With the media
triggering this whole mess and your place of employment giving you
"sensitivity training", you reach a point of fearing opening your
own mouth, or using your fingers to respond innocently to a message.
I say we should all "toughen up" a little, "lighten up" a little,
and do our best to be brothers (or sisters) who are on this list to
benefit ourselves intellectually, rather than wasting time blasting
people for their "slips of toungue/fingers".
As far as the rifle goes, when you go to purchase a new vehicle,
do you not sit down and try to get the price down as low as you
possibly can? If you don't then that's your right since it's your
money. But most people are looking for a deal that benefits them
to the max and would'nt think twice about going for a deal that
more than benefits them, even if it is actually financially harming
the other person who didn't take the time to educate themselves
before entering into such a deal. Paying someone only $300 for a $5,000
Hawken and having the seller accept that deal is not much
different than the uneducated person who might take that same
$5,000 rifle and hock it at the pawn shop for only $300 with no
intention of ever getting it back.
Sorry for being so long winded, lets find a new topic to discuss.......
Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:59:24 -0600
From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Sinew
Thanks, guys, for all your posts on where to
find sinew.
Victoria
On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:28:42 -0500 (EST) SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net
writes:
> I'll second that,Moscow Hide and Fur is a great Company!
> M.
>
> "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau
