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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #678 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, November 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 678 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá MtMan-List: aka Bead Shooter -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: aka Bead Shooter -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá MtMan-List: shaker stoves -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá MtMan-List: dogs & r'vous -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's mone y -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá MtMan-List: Don King, Master Gunsmith -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá MtMan-List: To Diane on the trail of the wild Megwich. . . . -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Don King, Master Gunsmith -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dogs & r'vous -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs -áááááá MtMan-List: For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:39:14 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Linda one thing that one should keep in mind is to the Native America back then many things the Europeans had to offer had no soul because it had no life before. Canvas would be one of these things. Especially when you consider it is inferior to a hide cover when it comes to living year around in one. The hide cover would keep you warmer so why would they want canvas. the only reason I could see is out of need do to the lack of Buffalo hides. Either because of all the hides being all trade off and the numbers of Buffalo falling off. That is why we don't start seeing Canvas covers until the late 1850s. For some Tribes it was not until they were put on the Reservation that they had to start using canvas. Granted Canvas is lighter but when it comes to warmth it is no match to leather. That's my thoughts Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:04:51 -0800 From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Good thoughts, but why was there such a pride of ownership put on having a cloth cover tipis in the early 1850s' when buffalo was still plentiful. It was a big deal to own such a lodge. Lodges from cloth, notice I do not say canvas, was very expensive and a larger lodge could be made without weighing so much. Ever pick up a buffalo hide cover for a 17' lodge? I have several photos of tribes with cloth cover and they are not on a reservation. To solve this problem or point of view I am still looking for more documentation in writings and original pictures. Linda Holley Tipi Wastewin "Good Lodge Woman" GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Linda one thing that one should keep in mind is to the Native America back > then many things the Europeans had to offer had no soul because it had no > life before. Canvas would be one of these things. Especially when you > consider it is inferior to a hide cover when it comes to living year around > in one. The hide cover would keep you warmer so why would they want canvas. > the only reason I could see is out of need do to the lack of Buffalo hides. > Either because of all the hides being all trade off and the numbers of > Buffalo falling off. That is why we don't start seeing Canvas covers until > the late 1850s. For some Tribes it was not until they were put on the > Reservation that they had to start using canvas. Granted Canvas is lighter > but when it comes to warmth it is no match to leather. > That's my thoughts > Crazy Cyot > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:51:51 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi In a message dated 11/21/00 3:41:47 PM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: << Tribes it was not until they were put on the Reservation that they had to start using canvas. Granted Canvas is lighter but when it comes to warmth it is no match to leather. That's my thoughts >> You bring up some good points, Cyot. I'm of the belief that canvas became more popular because you could build a very large lodge with it being so light in weight. If the plains folk are anything like my wife, the bigger the house, the better...<G> Also easier to set up, and nice and bright inside. Haveing said that, I'll trade you my 20' canvas tipi for your 14' buffalo hide tipi.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:14:42 -0500 From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Dogs are like Children.. Okay if quiet & restrained and they also are tender meat for the pot when they are young. D "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.." - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:36:09 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: aka Bead Shooter Hallo the List, I'm recently back from an overnight in Helena Montana, and got to spend the afternoon with Ghosting Wolf (Gene Hickman). A finer Mountaineer, you'd be hard pressed to find! He picked me up at the hotel, and we spent some time at a gun show, checked out the baby bears at Fish and Game, (he works there), headed out to the F&G hunter check point and looked at some nice elk and deer that had been taken. From there we drove over to Gene's home where he whipped up a meal fit for a starvin mountain man. "Chicken Fried" elk steaks, home made bread, fresh garden potatoes, home canned apples in sugar syrup...... I ate like a pig! Over dinner, Gene told the story on how he shot a pretty nice Mule deer recently with his flintlock. Seems when he left home, he grabbed his shootin bag and gun, and headed up into the hills behind his place. After putting the sneak on a nice buck, he got off a nice shot and got a fair hit. Upon reaching into his bag to reload, he found that there were no round balls to be found! (they fell out at home) With it getting dark, and snowing pretty good, he decided to track the deer and try to finish it off with his knife...<VBG> Well....needless to say, the Mulely had other ideas and fear and better judgment kept Gene from getting kilt. The next plan involved Gene removing his favorite large BEADS from his jacket and pouch, and loading his rifle...using his T-shirt for patching! LOL! I won't go into the details but "Bead Shooter" was near outta beads by the time the deer went under...had tears in my eyes to hear him tell it. Thanks Gene, for a great afternoon, a great meal, and a great story! I sure enjoyed it.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:25:50 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Linda you said but why was there such a pride of ownership put on having a cloth cover tipis in the early 1850s' when buffalo was still plentiful. It was a big deal to own such a lodge. Linda where are you getting this Information from. Just wondering what's your source? You said Lodges from cloth, notice I do not say canvas, was very expensive and a larger lodge could be made without weighing so much. This is a twenty century mind set bigger is not always better. The bigger the lodge the colder the lodge and yes I have picked up the cover of an 18' buffalo hide tipis it weighed around a hundred and fifty pounds. The 14' elk hide tipis I helped set up once weighed around a one hundred pounds. I did not say all the tribes I said some of the tribes did not start using cloth until they were put on the reservation. One or two pictures of a few cloth tipis does not make wide spread use of them neither does the sale of enough yardage of cloth to make a tipis. I've got a question for you, have you ever been out in your large tipis when it was 20 below or colder? Well, I have when it was 45 below in a 16' and at the time I wished it was only 14' or smaller. Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:04:37 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Richard James you need to read Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains Page 130. He talks about a trapper by the name of Milman going out to check his traps with his dog and how the dog tried to warn him of an ambush by some Indians. Seems some of them trappers did have dogs as pets and they were of some use besides the eating of them. Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:47:01 -0800 From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi > > but why was there such a pride of ownership put on having a > cloth cover tipis in the early 1850s' when buffalo was still plentiful. It > was > a big deal to own such a lodge. > Linda where are you getting this Information from. Just wondering what's your > source? > One of my sources can be found at: > http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/covers.htm > > You said Lodges from cloth, notice I do not say canvas, > was very expensive and a larger lodge could be made without weighing so much. > This is a twenty century mind set bigger is not always better. What makes this a 20th. cent. mind set? Can it be a woman's' set or how about having a Hudson bay blanket as compared to a nice ever lasting elk robe. Or lets get that flint lock over the old standard bow and arrow. How about a steel knife compared to a flint knife. You can only compare one to the other on what you might prefer or hold more valuable. Women wanted cloth dresses and blankets to that old buffalo robe and brain tanned hide for a dress. What does make something better than another item of the same use? And can a writer put this down on paper the feelings and reasons of the time period as to why people did things without asking that person. I can only document from what I have read and seen and there is still so much more to learn. I keep learning from this group of "fine" gentlemen all the time. > The bigger > the lodge the colder the lodge And then what about spring, summer and fall? It isn't always winter. Didn't have to worry about heating the place all the time. Here is where we start getting into insulation, wind breaks and ozans. And many times they camped without a lining. > and yes I have picked up the cover of an 18' > buffalo hide tipis it weighed around a hundred and fifty pounds. The 14' elk > hide tipis I helped set up once weighed around a one hundred pounds. Heavy isn't it. > > I did not say all the tribes I said some of the tribes did not start using > cloth until they were put on the reservation. That is true, but you did bring in the decline of the buffalo a little early? And you imply that canvas was "mostly" a reservation item by your statement. > One or two pictures of a few > cloth tipis does not make wide spread use of them neither does the sale of > enough yardage of cloth to make a tipis. I do have many more than one or two photos of the early cloth tipis as I stated. And there is the documentation of large amounts of "cloth" being sold. Most of this I am still researching for my web site and a future book. So if I do not go into all the details here, pardon me while I am still gathering information. > > I've got a question for you, have you ever been out in your large tipis when > it was 20 below or colder? Well, I have when it was 45 below in a 16' and at > the time I wished it was only 14' or smaller. > You are right that I have not camped in a Large tipi at 20 degrees below zero, > but I have lived in Alaska at much colder temperatures. I have a very good > idea what it would be like from my living and camping experiences there. I own > a 17' for the reason of heating and not wanting to carry the "kitchen" sink. > Also own a 10' for some real cozy camping. I can put a fire in it and stay > nice and warm. Linda Holley.....you know, I like my computer over my old typewriter and the computer is bigger. I like my Ford Explorer over my old Toyota Tercel and the Ford is bigger, uses more gas (to keep me warm) and has Firestone tires. (So much for the recall) and I live in a stupid state than cannot pin prick a voting ballot and then count them. So much for the education of the Florida resident. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:17:47 EST From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: aka Bead Shooter SWcushing@aol.com writes: > Thanks Gene, for a great afternoon, a great meal, and a great story! I sure > enjoyed it....>> When I saw this "Bead Shooter" subject line I was afraid to open the e-mail. You were much kinder and gentler in the retelling of the story than I thought you would be. Thanks. My lead ball had broken three ribs, went through both lungs and the liver. It was getting dark, snowing hard and deer was moving into heavy ponderosa pine scrub. Never lost a deer and I wasn't going to loose this one. I stuck with him and he was stumbling and falling down. It actually laid down and let me get up to 15-25 feet when I shot it with the beads. It was dying but I was afraid of loosing it in the dark, snow and heavy cover. Magpie forgot to tell you that I shot a rock at the deer, before the beads. Deer was 50 feet and rock went right over its back. Can't get any accuracy out of these rocks around here. The first bead was a black skunk bead, around .50 cal. and fit pretty tight with 3 or 4 patches. It penetrated the neck at an angle and went in about 4 inches and chipped a piece off the vertebrate. The next load was two red white-heart beads (8mm) broke the lower jaw and went through the mouth. All these shots were at about 25 feet with 60-80 grains of fffg. Had to use T-shirt and some leaves for patching on the smaller beads. Everytime I hit the deer it would jerk it's head from the impact and get up and take off at a stumbling slow run falling down every 4 or 5 steps. It would go 40-50 yards and lay down. Then I would sneak up and shoot it again. It was not pretty and I would not recommend it. I finally killed it, but I had already cut a stick about 3"-4" long, sharpened it, and whittled it down to slightly smaller than .54 cal. That was my next shot AKA Private Shannon on the Corps of Discovery. Two things I learned: use brass beads for decoration on your horn and pouch, and loads beads with the hole facing out. YMOS Bead Shooter - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 01:04:16 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs In a message dated 11/21/0 08:05:23 PM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: << did have dogs as pets and they were of some use besides the eating of them. Crazy Cyot>> Crazy - let me ask you . . . 1828, you are in Crow country by yourself. Do you want a barking dog hanging around your camp RJ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 06:16:54 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs If he was braking at a crow Indian to let me know that they were there. You bet, better then getting arrow in the back. Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 06:40:10 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs I forgot to mention if I had the dog I would not be alone. I would have one more set of eyes and good nose to help me watch the camp and my back plus have a good horse guard at night. Crazy but no fool Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 06:49:17 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: shaker stoves On a couple occasions I have seen owners of tipees use tin cans with both ends cut out and lined in a trench from outside to the fire pit. this provided a source of fresh air to the fire and when covered with dirt did not distract from appearance. Dunno if the indians did anything like that but it is a good idea for safety. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:54:52 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi Linda every one of the things you mentioned did have some improvements over what it replaced. When it comes to wet weather nothing can beat wool. When that woman got that Hudson bay blanket she still had her self a buffalo robe for when it got good and cold to keep warm with. I would prefer to live in a house made out of loges, rock or brick, they are warm in the winter and cooler in the summer but they cost more to build now. So I live in a framed house. What I'm get at is by the 1850s the price of beaver was down but the price of buffalo was up. How were they going to get all the other things they wanted like you mentioned? With the western migration of whites The price of cloth had to be cheeper then it was in years past. So for them it would have cost them more to have a hide tipis. Something to think a bout. Here in Idaho and in most of the rocky mountain state winters are longer then all the other season put to gather. So I would want a warm house to live wouldn't you? I know how women like to stay warm so I think that would be high on the list for reasons to keep a hide tipis. It was also women's job to keep it warm by gathering the wood as well as put it up. Which do you think they spent more time doing? Buffalo started to deduce in numbers faster on the West side of the Rockies. It was mention as early as the late 1830s by men like Osborn Russell and others. So I do not think that by say they were on the decline by the 1850s I'm putting it to early. Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:02:35 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: dogs & r'vous Linda, many years ago at the National Shoots in Friendship there were two serious incidents with dogs. One involved a five year old girl who had her face very badly torn up by a dog. This triggered a series of rules restricting dogs at any NMLRA event. These were very tragic happenings and I can understand if any of that legacy of caution regarding dogs at NMLRA events still lingers. I like dogs but have no patience with loose animals or their owners. I have lost valuable cattle to so-called 'family pets'. If one is chasing my cows or calves I shoot it. No second chance or appeals. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:17:17 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's mone y Richard James asked "So what is a Megwich?" It is Anishinabe for "Thank you". Oh, in case you haven't run into it, the Anishinabe people are often called Ojibwa by the whites - it is the predominant language group in my part of the country, that being Manitoba and northwestern Ontario. My Anishinabe language skills are rudimentary - just enough to get myself in trouble on Reserve because I THINK I know what was said but what I thought was said, wasn't what was actually said. Confused yet? The other I occasionally use is "Na-ya-whey" which is the same thing in Seneca. I once was told how to say thank you in Miniconju but it was a 5 minute speech and be darned if I can remember ANY of it!!! keep warm.... Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:21:39 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Thanks all for the comments about dogs in camp. I hate dog poo on my shoes too. I hope that a plastic bag hidden in a possibles bag is a permissible sin - don't fancy picking that stuff up with my fingers. Loved the term "B.L.T." - Black Lab on Toast!!! If my dog were not well behaved, I wouldn't have her in camp - probably wouldn't have her at home too. Whether dogs, horses, or kids, if it isn't under control, somebody needs a whack on the back of the head. Thanks again! Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 06:52:35 -0800 From: "Jay Geisinger" <poorboy@ieway.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs Klahowya My Friends, RJ you make two wrong assumptions in you statements against mountain men and dogs. First there are 1st hand accounts of them having dogs. I'm not saying everyone had a dog along. I am sure that there were just as many people around then that did not like dogs around as there are now. Second not all dogs are barkers. I have a short hair that does not bark much at all. He tells me someone or something is around by his actions. And if you are not supposed to be around my place, he would just as soon come up on you quiet and get a chunk of you. If you are lucky you might hear him growl before he hits you. On the other hand if I am around and indicate by my actions that all is OK, he will lick you and play till your arms fall off. Since you are insisting on basing your assertions on your opinion of how dogs act, then here is my humble opinion.....I believe dogs THEN were better behaved and taught not to bark unless necessary, as a matter of survival, whether on the trail or at the cabin. Unlike the dogs of today that must usually make a ruckus to get there lazy owners away from the television set to spend time with them. Again a general statement and not intended to include all dogs or owners. YMOHS PoorBoy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:22:45 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Don King, Master Gunsmith Walt, I just spotted a beautiful swivel breech rifle by Don King in "Contemporary Makers of Muzzle Loading Firearms" while doing a little research for a feller. Is he Mike King's dad, that I met with you, awhile back? And if he is, does Mike have one of his fathers guns I could talk him out of? I'll send over whiskey...wimmins... or whatever it takes to get one......<VBG> Ymos, Magpie at chilly Ft Vancouver - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:30:59 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money Diane: Don't worry about that first Rendezvous. It doesn't matter what you do or how hard you try, you might as well just accept that it (and all those to come) are a learning situation. No one on God's earth could have made more blunders than I did at my first Rendezvous on the Wind River (Riverton) in 1996. When I think of it I still cringe and then, last week, just as I thought I had almost recovered from the dark memory . . . I ran into a man that was at that first Rendezvous and he has a videotape of me standing in the center of the circle at opening ceremony in all my glorious historical inaccuracy. But damn, it was one good time and every time after that has shined even brighter. Just jump in and start making memories. You will never regret the journey, even if you regret your mistakes. Fair weather to you! Laura Glise - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:39:22 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs In a message dated 11/21/00 10:05:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << Crazy - let me ask you . . . 1828, you are in Crow country by yourself. Do you want a barking dog hanging around your camp RJ >> nope... but wouldn't a WELL-TRAINED one to alert you of sneakers comin' up on you, help retrieve downed game from the water, flush critters out of brush, etc. be a nice thing to have? Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:43:48 -0700 From: Buck Conner <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > Anyway the dog was killed in a gruesome way for food before they were too many > days along the winter trail. Again - I don't believe Mt. Men were much for > having dogs, barking not being an asset when stealth is a way of life. > > Richard James Plus they aren't bad eatin' Dick, have had several at the Browning "Holy Smokes", served as part of the doings (we where the only two whites per say, of the 1500 native American quests), so you kind of go with the flow. Later, Buck Conner Resource & Documentation for: ________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT __________________________________HRD__ Visit these sites at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:55:45 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs In a message dated 11/22/0 04:20:32 AM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: << . . . .If he was braking . . . . >> O.K. . . . "Braking" . . . I'll go along with that. Barking at a magpie when you are alone and practicing stealth and Crows are plentiful in their own land. . . . Maybe that is why the "dog man" mentioned does not make much of an appearance in the annals but other-than-dog-keepers went on to make history. Maybe?? RJ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:05:38 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: To Diane on the trail of the wild Megwich. . . . Diane - you take me too seriously but thank you for the seriously gracious explanation of the word. I have talked with Ojibwa on the (a) res in Ontario and I had a close friend from Minnesota who was Ojibwa (which he said was the same as Chippawa, and so did the Canadians), but they never used the "A" word to identify their nation. PROBABLY because they figured I had all the information I could handle and they didn't want to further confuse me. ALL, however, were like you - friendly and gracious. And for that, let me say, "Megwich", Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:08:56 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Don King, Master Gunsmith Yes Magpie. The Mike King you met is the son of the famous ML maker, Don King. Cold over your way? Still good hunting weather over here. Have not seen much action among my friends since the opening week. Maybe some time when you get over to Billings. I can remake the introduction. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:17:55 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs In a message dated 11/22/0 06:22:42 AM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes: <<Thanks all for the comments about dogs in camp. I hate dog poo on my shoes too. I hope that a plastic bag hidden in a possibles bag is a permissible sin - don't fancy picking that stuff up with my fingers. Loved the term "B.L.T." - Black Lab on Toast!!! If my dog were not well behaved, I wouldn't have her in camp - probably wouldn't have her at home too. >> Reading all the messages your question generated, I hope you did not pick up any antagonism from anyone. It seemed all messages were intent on being helpful to you -- dog-lovers and otherwise. I like dogs but have only had one and that was over half a century ago. We have had 42 wolves (not all at the same time) and a coyote - loved them all. You take critism and teasing well. I have a thing going with Crazy Coyote now about dogs and mountain men. I think he is starting to catch on that I am just chiding him rather than dead serious. When he comes to that conclusion, the fun is all over. Meanwhile Megwich R, James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:23:06 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs In a message dated 11/22/0 07:43:24 AM, poorboy@ieway.com writes: <<Again a general statement and not intended to include all dogs or owners.>> Poorboy Is it a safe statement then that some mountain men had pooches - some did not? Journals and other records seem to deal with the have-nots more than the haves? And further, you would have had your dog in tow had you been in the mountains in 1820s? and finally -- he is a very find animal and friend? RJ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:26:42 -0800 From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi You are shifting the whole discussion to something else now than the original line. I stick with what I said and see no reason to continue. You are just rambling. Linda Holley GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Linda every one of the things you mentioned did have some improvements over > what it replaced. When it comes to wet weather nothing can beat wool. When > that woman got that Hudson bay blanket she still had her self a buffalo robe > for when it got good and cold to keep warm with. > I would prefer to live in a house made out of loges, rock or brick, they are > warm in the winter and cooler in the summer but they cost more to build now. > So I live in a framed house. What I'm get at is by the 1850s the price of > beaver was down but the price of buffalo was up. How were they going to get > all the other things they wanted like you mentioned? With the western > migration of whites The price of cloth had to be cheeper then it was in years > past. So for them it would have cost them more to have a hide tipis. > Something to think a bout. Here in Idaho and in most of the rocky mountain > state winters are longer then all the other season put to gather. So I would > want a warm house to live wouldn't you? I know how women like to stay warm so > I think that would be high on the list for reasons to keep a hide tipis. It > was also women's job to keep it warm by gathering the wood as well as put it > up. Which do you think they spent more time doing? Buffalo started to deduce > in numbers faster on the West side of the Rockies. It was mention as early as > the late 1830s by men like Osborn Russell and others. So I do not think that > by say they were on the decline by the 1850s I'm putting it to early. > Crazy Cyot > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:31:30 -0800 From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dogs & r'vous I agree whole hearted with you and do enforce such rules...but you better post them first and not after the fact. And the mention of dogs was not in the insurance issued to NMLRA at the time of my problems. And on the other side...would love to see a little Yorkie take down a cow. And if the mutant Yorkie was taking down a cow I would shoot it too, first with a camera and then the gun. ;-) But I do know your point as I have personally been attacked by a family pet. My dad did kill it. Linda Frank Fusco wrote: > Linda, many years ago at the National Shoots in Friendship there were > two serious incidents with dogs. One involved a five year old girl who had > her face very badly torn up by a dog. This triggered a series of rules > restricting dogs at any NMLRA event. > These were very tragic happenings and I can understand if any of that > legacy of caution regarding dogs at NMLRA events still lingers. > I like dogs but have no patience with loose animals or their owners. I > have lost valuable cattle to so-called 'family pets'. If one is chasing my > cows or calves I shoot it. No second chance or appeals. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:33:21 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@brier.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs At the risk of being dubbed a crumudgeon, I have to side with the "No dogs" crowd. I love critters... have 2 dogs and 2 cats at home, but you get tired of hearing them yap and bark all the time. That, and I pick up enough poo when I am home. A week or so away from the critters is kinda nice once in a while. A "working dog" (seeing-eye) is another matter. No problem there at all... but just to have your pets with you... Nope... Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:23:51 -0700 From: Buck Conner <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: MtMan-List: For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving; - --------------3B4F56C14D76B789AFCD615D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving; Let's take a look at what the Corps Of Discovery are up to: Thanksgiving Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn't happen until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National Holiday. On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come 4,162 miles since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision was needed: where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark explained the options. Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions, and perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which they would need for the return trip. They could remain on the north side of the Columbia's mouth, through the local Chinook I Indians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices for everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game. They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing. Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez Perce - where they could count on drier weather. Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important decision. As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating in territory beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and Clark could simply have imposed their own choice. Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it had already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain soaked gales of the lower Columbia. They would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals who had molded themselves into a cohesive unit that was stronger than the sum of its particular parts. E pluribus unum. One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called out. And each one's preference was recorded. Clark's slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before slaves in the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised. Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before either women or Indians were granted the full rights of citizenship. In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia. There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America between themselves and their countrymen. Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all Cut the first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my name, the Day & year on an alder tree.... William Clark. By Land from the U. States in 1804 & 1805. WILLIAM CLARK Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with large amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working as a unit and making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful day to be thankfull for. ôLEWIS & CLARK / The Journey of the Corps of Discoveryö is the main source where this information was gotten from, Dayton Duncan & Ken Burns have done a wonderful piece of work on these adventures of Lewis & Clark and the Corps of Discovery members. A must have book for anyone interested in the travels of this group and the mapping of America. Later, Buck Conner Resource & Documentation for: ________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT __________________________________HRD__ Visit these sites at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ - --------------3B4F56C14D76B789AFCD615D Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">For a change of pace, Happy Thanksgiving;</a></blockquote> Let's take a look at what the Corps Of Discovery are up to: Thanksgiving Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn't happen until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National Holiday. On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come 4,162 miles since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision was needed: where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark explained the options. Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions, and perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which they would need for the return trip. They could remain on the north side of the Columbia's mouth, through the local Chinook I Indians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices for everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game. They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing. Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez Perce - where they could count on drier weather. Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important decision. As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating in territory beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and Clark could simply have imposed their own choice. Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it had already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain soaked gales of the lower Columbia. They would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals who had molded themselves into a cohesive unit that was stronger than the sum of its particular parts. E pluribus unum. One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called out. And each one's preference was recorded. Clark's slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before slaves in the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised. Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before either women or Indians were granted the full rights of citizenship. In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia. There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America between themselves and their countrymen. Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all Cut the first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my name, the Day & year on an alder tree.... William Clark. By Land from the U. States in 1804 & 1805. WILLIAM CLARK Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with large amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working as a unit and making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful day to be thankfull for. ôLEWIS & CLARK / The Journey of the Corps of Discoveryö is the main source where this information was gotten from, Dayton Duncan & Ken Burns have done a wonderful piece of work on these adventures of Lewis & Clark and the Corps of Discovery members. A must have book for anyone interested in the travels of this group and the mapping of America. Later, Buck Conner Resource & Documentation for: ________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT __________________________________HRD__ Visit these sites at: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A> <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/">http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/</A> ________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! ___ </html> - --------------3B4F56C14D76B789AFCD615D-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #678 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.