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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, November 21 2000      Volume 01 : Number 677



In this issue:

-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
-áááááá MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá MtMan-List: 26 point white tail
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:05:44 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi

Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more

You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).

Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?

In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
liberties with accuracy!)

A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
front poles.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:06:24 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves

elkflea asked if anyone died as a result of asphyxiation from carbon
monoxide poisoning in a Tipi.

When I was down on the Cheyenne River Reserve and talking to the old people
about winter life in the tipi I asked about ventilation (since I had been
told they often stuffed dry grass down in the space between the covering and
the ghost sheet).

I was told that it was common to dig a shallow trench in the ground before
pitching the tipi for the winter. The trench extended from outside of the
covering to the fire in the centre. The trench was then covered with
branches (so you didn't trip on it). It allowed cold air to reach the fire
without making a draft on everyone inside.

I don't expect canvas would likely gas anyone (though it could), but I
imagine a hide tipi wouldn't "breathe" worth a darn!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:19:01 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi

A small tipi of 10 to 12 would take about 25 yards at 36" wide.  If using the
48" it would be less.

Linda Holley

Walt Foster wrote:

> Don't know if anybody's mentioned it yet, but Allen Chronister had an
> article on this very topic in the last Museum of the Fur Trade
> Quarterly.  Good research.  In short, he gives evidence that cloth tipi
> covers can be documented as early as 1846 (Lakotas).  There was another
> article on canvas tipi covers in the MFTQ Fall '84.  And Marcy mentions
> canvas tipi covers in "Prairie Traveler" (1859)
> http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/carrie/kancoll/books/marcy/index.html.
>
> This pushes the documentable date back earlier than 1870's, but doesn't
> quite get you to 1800.  If you're a stickler for authenticity and want to
> document cloth tipi's that early, you could try looking in HBC records for
> huge purchases of cloth by indians - a tipi would require - what - 50 yards
> or more?
> -Dean
>
> Hello Dean,
>
> Walt Marten has a Lewis and Clark reference to a tipi being brought up river
> 1805.  There is a 50/50 chance that this was the first cloth tipi in what is
> now called Montana.  The small tipi was for the use of the guides and
> carried on the big boat.  With the wet conditions and sail clothe being
> available within the expedition.   A small cloth tipi of 10-12 foot in
> diameter does not take anywhere near 50 yards of material.  I will see Walt
> Marten at the Stillwater County Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Commission
> meeting on the 20th and I will arrange to get the reference.
>
> Walt
> Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
> Clark Bottom Rendezvous
> Yellowstone Canoe Camp
> On the Lewis & Clark Trail
> Park City, Montana
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:00:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shaker stoves

In a message dated 11/20/0 12:07:37 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<I don't expect canvas would likely gas anyone (though it could), but I

imagine a hide tipi wouldn't "breathe" worth a darn!


Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)>>

But you still have a heck-of-a vent in that smoke  hole.  Without the draft
coming under the dew cloth or in the previously mentioned "vent-channel" the
smoke won't go out and you get an immediate message.  Many times I have
gotten up in the night to clear fresh snowfall away from the edge of that
covering to allow the draft to come in . . . clears the smoke right out.
Smokey tipis wake you up - they're not like the fumes from those little
stoves.

Richard James

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:58:45 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi

I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
>
> You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
>
> Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
>
> In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> liberties with accuracy!)
>
> A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> front poles.
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:49:38 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi

Elkflea I can't say as I have heard of any one get COed in a Tipis. But I
have had to lay low a few times when the smoke got thick, do to a wind
change. Before I got up to change the smoke flaps. The first winter I lived
in my tipis I dug a trench to the out side as before mentioned but I {for
give the lack of period correctness} laid a pipe in the ground with a ninety
on it so it had about three feet of pipe standing above the ground. So the
snow would not cover it. This worked every well; helped keep a good draft for
the fire and helped to keep the inside of the lodge warmer because the fire
was not pulling cold air in form the edges of the lodge. I also found that a
tall liner helps to keep it warmer. Never tried the grass stuffed in the
liner just figured that when the grass got wet and started to mold it would
help to rote the canvas faster. I found building a wind brake fence around
the tipis helped too, also gave me a place to store fire wood. I spent two
winters in a tipis on the bend of the Bear River by Soda Spring Idaho. I also
found out way the Indians did not winter there it's got to be one of the
coldest places in the state.

                                                    See ya on the Trail
                                                         Crazy Cyot

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:46:06 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Wintering in a Tipi

Hello the list,

What Crazy didn't really emphasize here was that he _lived_ in the tipi year
round for 2 years.  So when it comes to knowing how and what works and what
don't, I'd be a listenin' to the Cyot!

Allen

At 11:49 PM 11/20/2000 EST, you wrote:
>Elkflea I can't say as I have heard of any one get COed in a Tipis. But I
>have had to lay low a few times when the smoke got thick, do to a wind
>change. Before I got up to change the smoke flaps. The first winter I lived
>in my tipis I dug a trench to the out side as before mentioned but I {for
>give the lack of period correctness} laid a pipe in the ground with a ninety
>on it so it had about three feet of pipe standing above the ground. So the
>snow would not cover it. This worked every well; helped keep a good draft for
>the fire and helped to keep the inside of the lodge warmer because the fire
>was not pulling cold air in form the edges of the lodge. I also found that a
>tall liner helps to keep it warmer. Never tried the grass stuffed in the
>liner just figured that when the grass got wet and started to mold it would
>help to rote the canvas faster. I found building a wind brake fence around
>the tipis helped too, also gave me a place to store fire wood. I spent two
>winters in a tipis on the bend of the Bear River by Soda Spring Idaho. I also
>found out way the Indians did not winter there it's got to be one of the
>coldest places in the state.
>
>                                                    See ya on the Trail
>                                                         Crazy Cyot
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 06:33:36 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi

Interesting that the painting is 1860.  Canvas was used in the 1850's.  But how
about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so.

Linda Holley

Mike Moore wrote:

> I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
> between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
> copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
> flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
> the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
> edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
> determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
> goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.
>
> "Best, Dianne" wrote:
>
> > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
> >
> > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
> >
> > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
> >
> > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> > liberties with accuracy!)
> >
> > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> > front poles.
> >
> > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:44:12 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Howdy again group.

I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
allow dogs on the grounds?

My companion is period-correct (being little changed since the 12 Century) -
not my specific hound, you understand, but the breed in general - golly no,
my dog isn't that old.

Dogs were also a part of camp life but I gather that many Rendezvous are
held in parks and I don't know what their rules are.

I'd appreciate a straw vote on how often my hound could go a tradin with me.

na-ya-whe

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:57:27 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Diane
Virtually all Texas rendezvous allow dogs, but very few allow them to =
run free.  Bring a pair of leashs for phideaux, a short one for walking =
him around camp, and a longer one to picket him in camp at all other =
times.
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  When I am made king, this will be the universal rule for =
rendezvous.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:16:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

[e-mail] writes:

> I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
allow dogs on the grounds?>>

Our club shoots and rendezvous allows dogs as do most of the shoots and camps
I've been to here around Montana. Only problem has been those who don't
control dogs and you have dogs wandering through your camp and tents. Then
there is the occasional dog that wants to wander around the targets on the
range. Our small shoots and rondys around here will usually ask someone with
a repeatedly unmannerly dog to keep them under control or not to bring them
anymore. I usually bring only one of my three dogs at a time. It makes them
easier to control and it's easier to keep an eye on them. Dogs will be dogs,
they are friendly and curious, wanting to see everyone and be part of
everything. Of course when you are cooking or eating they want to help with
sampling the fare.

My dogs tend to want to go with the kids. More action there then hanging out
with the old folks. You can also usually get the kids to take your dog off
somewhere for a good "romp", swim or walk.

Seems like the eastern rondys had more restrictions than some of the western
ones. Some of the really big rendezvous, with a lot of public, have been the
only ones I've usually seen with dog restrictions, i.e., Alafia, Fort de
Chartre, etc. With that many people around I can understand why they would
restrict it. They can be a real problem.

I find it most annoying when you are on the firing line and have to stop to
get a dog off the range or when they come in to your camp to steal food.
Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have
had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. I am a real dog lover,
but again it can be very annoying to have uncontrolled dogs wandering through
everything. When you open it up to dogs for everyone, you take a chance of
getting the uncontrolled dogs. Most dogs I've seen at Rondy have been very
good, but it only takes one to ruin it for all. Hope this helps.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:37:14 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi

Linda,
    Off the top of my head, you might check out Karl Bodmer's water colors.
In "People of the First Man", (1833-4 Which has Prince Maximillian's journal in it
too)
Karl paints a couple hide tipis. One is a Assiniboin camp near Fort Union
(pages 70-71) and on page 96 a indian battle outside Fort MacKenzie has four.
It is good to hear about the ones on the list which have used their lodges for
extended
peroids. While I have used mine for up to a week and half, it is not the same as a
winter,
a year or more. Keep the lessons coming. As far as hide tipis, I think this subject
is like alot of others, the information is availible if we just look for it. Too
many times,
we see and soak up the the big picture (or pages of  information) and do recall
the specifics on small things or topics. But hwen we look, we find alot of info that

is helpful.
                                        mike.

p.s. George Catlin draws some lodges in his books "Lettters and Notes on the
Conditions of North American Indians" (two volumes, 1832-9), but don't remember
to what detail his are. I think a Crow lodge is shown in volume one and as some
one on this list mentioned eariler, a picture of two big lodges openned up to allow
alot of people 60 to 70 people (?) to be in them.


Linda Holley wrote:

> Interesting that the painting is 1860.  Canvas was used in the 1850's.  But how
> about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> Mike Moore wrote:
>
> > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
> > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
> > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
> > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
> > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
> > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
> > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
> > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.
> >
> > "Best, Dianne" wrote:
> >
> > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
> > >
> > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
> > >
> > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
> > >
> > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> > > liberties with accuracy!)
> > >
> > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> > > front poles.
> > >
> > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:56:14 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Diane,   There are several Rdvs. here in California that do not allow
dogs.  After problems with fighting, and biting people a couple of my
favorite Rdvs. disallowed dogs.  I have 2   5 month old Aussie Cattle
Dogs.  We just spent some time at a snowy rendezvous near Donner Pass.
Check the RDVS. flyers to see if dogs are allowed, or not.    hardtack

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:13:07 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail

A guy in west central Wisconsin shot a 26 pointer north of Chippewa
Falls this weekend.

To see a picture go to:

http://www.chippewa.com/


or

http://www.chippewa.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:32:57 -0500
From: Jim Lockmiller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

I've been to a few Rondy's where dogs like that would be the next meal.
My Native Friends call them "BLT"  - Black Lab on Toast
Manbear

[e-mail] wrote:

> <snip> when they come in to your camp to steal food.
> Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have
> had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate.
> Ghosting Wolf
>


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:47:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Dogs at Rendezvous
    I have never read an instance of mountain men having dogs with the
instance of Black Harris and Sublette(?) leaving Cache Valley in January  for
St. Louis to set up the next rendezvous.  They had left a winter encampment
with Indians and I presume it was from the Indians that they got the dog.
I'm fuzzy on recollection but I believe it was a beast of burden to begin
with (though I cannot see a travois going through deep drifts) if so did they
use some sort of tobogan(?).  Anyway the dog was killed in a gruesome way for
food before they were too many days along the winter trail.  Again - I don't
believe Mt. Men were much for having dogs, barking not being an asset when
stealth is a way of life.
    Indians, on the other hand had dogs for several reasons.  So when there
was a mixed camp, there were dogs.  As for me I get really pissed if I
discover "doggy-do" on the bottom of my moccasins.  I hold the owner
responsible.  I don't think this has changed much from 1830s and any
offending pooch runs a risk of ending up in the pot, which puts the burden of
control on the owner.
Richard James

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:49:11 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money

I only been hanging around this cyber outpost for a short time but I feel
inclined to spout a bit...

I am right impressed with knowledgeable help I have gotten with some of the
questions I have posted. Lot of smart people lurking in the shadows here.

Ya'll seem to be friendly bunch and give a warm welcome to a disoriented
stranger. Much appreciate it.

When I ask a question that sounds like it come from a flatlander, ya'll have
been mighty patient with me.

Don't know who many of you folks I'll have a chance to meet, but I look
forward to crossing trails with ya'll - hope you don't laugh too hard the
first time I show up at Rendezvous!

Just wanted to say Megwich!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)




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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:55:45 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?

Oh, I know that one, actually they did both as well as cached poles
in favorite camping spots
joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:35:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Better than a poker game with someone else's money

In a message dated 11/21/0 11:50:32 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Just wanted to say Megwich>>

So what is a Megwich?  Is it Celtic diety?  Maybe something like Wicken
witch?
If it is good - many Megwiches to you, too, from Utah.
Richard James

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:42:02 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 26 point white tail

Must be removed from the web.  Went there to see and it was just an article
about deer harvest being down.  If you have the jif would love to see the
deer photo.
- -C.Kent

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> A guy in west central Wisconsin shot a 26 pointer north of Chippewa
> Falls this weekend.
>
> To see a picture go to:
>
> http://www.chippewa.com/
>
>
> or
>
> http://www.chippewa.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:30:44 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Louis and Clark expedition had a tipi?

Joe You must have missed what I was talking about. Read The subject line.
Walt said he had heard that Lewis& Clark had a Tipis with them for their
guides to use That may have been made of canvas. Not unless you meant that
Lewis& Clark had favorite camping spots that they cached their poles at ahead
of time. That would have been just as likely as them having a tipis made out
of canvas or hide.
  Been meaning to make it over to see you haven't seen your store yet; one of
these days we'll make it over to see you until then watch your top not.
                                                 Crazy Cyot

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:40:30 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Originally, Alafia in Fla. did not allow dogs because of the alligators. Dogs are
considered bait.  Then when they moved the site to where no alligators were a
problem they just kept the rule.  The Original Southeastern was held in the same
spot as the Alafia and also had the rule.  They also kept the no dogs when they
moved the Southeastern to other areas.  Committees do not want to put up with the
animals.  One Southeastern almost got sued over the issue.  They did not post the
rules about dogs before hand  and some dogs were brought into camp.  It was not
until you got into camp and set up that the you read the rules and found out
there were no dogs.  Long story.....
But I won against the NMLRA.

Linda Holley
Tipi Wastewin
"Good Lodge Woman"

[e-mail] wrote:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> > I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
> allow dogs on the grounds?>>
>
> Our club shoots and rendezvous allows dogs as do most of the shoots and camps
> I've been to here around Montana. Only problem has been those who don't
> control dogs and you have dogs wandering through your camp and tents. Then
> there is the occasional dog that wants to wander around the targets on the
> range. Our small shoots and rondys around here will usually ask someone with
> a repeatedly unmannerly dog to keep them under control or not to bring them
> anymore. I usually bring only one of my three dogs at a time. It makes them
> easier to control and it's easier to keep an eye on them. Dogs will be dogs,
> they are friendly and curious, wanting to see everyone and be part of
> everything. Of course when you are cooking or eating they want to help with
> sampling the fare.
>
> My dogs tend to want to go with the kids. More action there then hanging out
> with the old folks. You can also usually get the kids to take your dog off
> somewhere for a good "romp", swim or walk.
>
> Seems like the eastern rondys had more restrictions than some of the western
> ones. Some of the really big rendezvous, with a lot of public, have been the
> only ones I've usually seen with dog restrictions, i.e., Alafia, Fort de
> Chartre, etc. With that many people around I can understand why they would
> restrict it. They can be a real problem.
>
> I find it most annoying when you are on the firing line and have to stop to
> get a dog off the range or when they come in to your camp to steal food.
> Don't mind the mannerly beggars who just sit with the mournful look, but have
> had some snatch food out of the pan or off a plate. I am a real dog lover,
> but again it can be very annoying to have uncontrolled dogs wandering through
> everything. When you open it up to dogs for everyone, you take a chance of
> getting the uncontrolled dogs. Most dogs I've seen at Rondy have been very
> good, but it only takes one to ruin it for all. Hope this helps.
>
> YMOS
> Ghosting Wolf
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:51:03 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas covered tipi

We do have the pictures of "hide" tipis, but I am interested in the first pictures of
cloth tipis.  Have both books you mention, but I like to be reminded of what I keep
forgetting.  I have a photo of 1854 showing the earliest cloth lodge, but no other
pictures earlier.  And the drawing and  paintings of the earlier time to not show cloth,
just hide tipis.  I know some of you guys out there see what others are blind too.
Keep the information coming.
Did love the material on winter camping.  Some of you may see that come up on the
http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com site.  The most winter camping in snow I have done
is about a week with 3 feet of snow up the sides.  Did not have problem with a fire as I
had a full liner and full ozan.  Kept me very warm and the snow melted down on the sides
of the lodge.  You can put a second lining inside your lodge hanging more vertically
down. Less room to heat and move around in.  I prefer the  grass in-between the lining
and cover and definitely a wind break.  Luckily North Carolina does not have the wind of
the plains.

Linda Holley

Mike Moore wrote:

> Linda,
>     Off the top of my head, you might check out Karl Bodmer's water colors.
> In "People of the First Man", (1833-4 Which has Prince Maximillian's journal in it
> too)
> Karl paints a couple hide tipis. One is a Assiniboin camp near Fort Union
> (pages 70-71) and on page 96 a indian battle outside Fort MacKenzie has four.
> It is good to hear about the ones on the list which have used their lodges for
> extended
> peroids. While I have used mine for up to a week and half, it is not the same as a
> winter,
> a year or more. Keep the lessons coming. As far as hide tipis, I think this subject
> is like alot of others, the information is availible if we just look for it. Too
> many times,
> we see and soak up the the big picture (or pages of  information) and do recall
> the specifics on small things or topics. But hwen we look, we find alot of info that
>
> is helpful.
>                                         mike.
>
> p.s. George Catlin draws some lodges in his books "Lettters and Notes on the
> Conditions of North American Indians" (two volumes, 1832-9), but don't remember
> to what detail his are. I think a Crow lodge is shown in volume one and as some
> one on this list mentioned eariler, a picture of two big lodges openned up to allow
> alot of people 60 to 70 people (?) to be in them.
>
> Linda Holley wrote:
>
> > Interesting that the painting is 1860.  Canvas was used in the 1850's.  But how
> > about earlier for pictures. like the 1830 or so.
> >
> > Linda Holley
> >
> > Mike Moore wrote:
> >
> > > I have seen a couple paintings which show clearly the difference
> > > between the canvas and hides used as covers. In fact, I own a
> > > copy of a painting by Bierstadt (dated 1860), it is summer, the
> > > flaps are down and the sides are up to let breezes in. He shows
> > > the hides thicker (when the smokes flaps and bottoms are seen on
> > > edge) and the seams show up well. I think the size of the painting
> > > determines (along with how acurate the artist wants to be)
> > > goes along way in how much detail goes into his work.
> > >
> > > "Best, Dianne" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dean wrote: a tipi would require - what - 50 yards or more
> > > >
> > > > You got it! My 14-footer used about that much. Don't forget that a 14'
> > > > diameter tipi cover is half of a 28-foot diameter circle (plus a bit).
> > > >
> > > > Crazy Cyot asked: How does one tell the difference between hide tipis and
> > > > canvas tipis from an artist painting or drawing?
> > > >
> > > > In a photo, you could probably tell a hide covering from canvas, but on a
> > > > painting, it is unlikely that the artist would include the details of where
> > > > all the seams are. (Even if they did, many early artists took a LOT of
> > > > liberties with accuracy!)
> > > >
> > > > A fabric covering will have all seams parallel to the front two poles. Hides
> > > > weren't long enough, so there had to be "up and down" seams as well (where
> > > > the hides were joined)as well as those geodesic curves in the plane of the
> > > > front poles.
> > > >
> > > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
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>
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:58:31 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

you wrote:
But I won against the NMLRA.

Linda
What did you win against the NMLRA?
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:27:19 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

It could have been money, but what I wanted  was a letter of apology from
the President of NMLRA that they did indeed mess up and a change in rules
for how information is advertised.  I didn't want much.  Just the
acknowledgment of the problems.

Ratcliff wrote:

> you wrote:
> But I won against the NMLRA.
>
> Linda
> What did you win against the NMLRA?
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:22:12 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Oh Lord ! ! ! !

Here we go again !  <GG>
Pendleton




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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:32:44 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous and Dogs

Dianne,
    Don't let the naysayers stop you from bringing your dog(s) to camp.
Like others have said, call and talk to the booshway and see if any special
rules apply to them before coming. Things like droppings and in a case I had
a few years back- a good friend Cecil brought a nice young dog to camp.
His name was "Fuzzy". Good dog, mix breed I think, not too big, pretty well
trained. That is until Fuzzy thought he needed to mark my bed roll. Good
thing I had a oil cloth on top. Well, I informed Cecil, that if he did it again,
I'd
return the favor. Things like that make great camp stories and are one reason
that
 some people don't like dogs in camp. If they don't growl too much, howl at the
moon all night, bring them. Just beware, dogs are good tasting, especially the
young ones.
                                                mike.

"Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Howdy again group.
>
> I was wondering, of you wandering Rendezvous types, how many Rendezvous
> allow dogs on the grounds?
>
> My companion is period-correct (being little changed since the 12 Century) -
> not my specific hound, you understand, but the breed in general - golly no,
> my dog isn't that old.
>
> Dogs were also a part of camp life but I gather that many Rendezvous are
> held in parks and I don't know what their rules are.
>
> I'd appreciate a straw vote on how often my hound could go a tradin with me.
>
> na-ya-whe
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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