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hist_text-digest      Thursday, November 2 2000      Volume 01 : Number 665



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Wilson Price
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy
-áááááá MtMan-List: Moving to Alberta, Canada
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
-áááááá MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá MtMan-List: Article in local papers (Aux Aliments du Pays)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Article in local papers (Aux Aliments du Pays)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:26:21 -0700
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Wilson Price

Magpie ([e-mail]) wrote:

 >>Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was
Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland
Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey.<<

The best book I've read (okay, the only book I've read) about Astoria was
James P. Ronda's _Astoria and Empire_ (University of Nebraska Press,
1990).  It's full of detailed information about every aspect of Astoria,
from its founding to its sale to the NW Co.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:38:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price

In a message dated 10/31/00 6:32:06 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< The best book I've read (okay, the only book I've read) about Astoria was
James P. Ronda's _Astoria and Empire_ (University of Nebraska Press,
1990).   >>

Thanks Angela,

I'm half way through his journal in Dean's archive.... they sure took a
wippin over along the Snake. I'll get the book you mention, and Irving's
"Astoria". Very good reading....
Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:44:47 -0700
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price

At 10:33 AM 10/31/2000 -0500, Magpie wrote (regarding WP Hunt's journal):
>Can you tell me if it is copied word for word, or selected excerpts
>....and also, where is the
>"original" journal located?

As far as I know, this is the entire journal.  It was published very early
in a French publication, and reprinted many times over the years, but I
don't know what happened to the original manuscript.


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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:54:37 -0700
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy

Thanks for the good words, and glad to hear you find the list useful.  It
does sometimes have its problems, but by and large there's been a lot of
good stuff.  The trick is just finding time to absorb the info that is out
there.  Anyway, I'm sure I'll see you somewheres in the mountains one of
these days!
- -Dean

At 01:31 AM 10/31/2000 -0500, Laura wrote:
>Mr. Rudy:
>
>I never see much of you on this list, but, Sir, I want to thank you for your
>vision in founding it.  In founding "all of us."  This list is a priceless
>fountain of perspectives, history, bias, and inspiration.  I hope to meet you
>one day.  Just missed you by a couple of days on Dry Cottonwood Creek in
>Wyoming, in 1999.  Wasn't that THE view?  My God, why did any one venture
>farther than the Grand Tetons?
>
>Looking forward to the day,
>
>Laura Rugel Glise
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:05:54 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Moving to Alberta, Canada

A fellow AMM brother is leaving for Alberta Canada, near
Edmonton (4 hrs from Jasper)  this week.   He would like
to contact any other AMM members in that area.    At the
present moment he is without computer access until settled
and has asked me to help him out.

If you, or someone you know lives in this area, please contact
me directly.    Thanks!

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
[e-mail]

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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:44:54 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy

My God, why did any one venture
> >farther than the Grand Tetons?

Miss Laura Jean,

Well I can't argue that the view was Grand but to answer  your rhetorical
question <G>...........

To gaze down into the Grand Canyon of  the Snake, to stand at the foot of
the Blue Mountains looking west and know you face a real desert and a real
mountain range still to cross before you taste the salt of the Great Western
Ocean, to stand at the entrance of the Columbia River Gorge with Hood
towering down from above, to see the mist flow over the Goat Rocks at
evening (or morning), to stand on a high precipice in the Cascades and look
the length of them as one Great Volcano after another rises to touch Heaven
Itself, to sail Puget Sound and look up at Mount Rainier or see the sun set
the Olympics on fire at dawn, or set behind them at dusk, or stand on the
headlands at the mouth of the Mighty Columbia looking out to sea at swells
who's journey of 2000 miles has caused them to grow beyond belief, to
maneuver your cedar Indian canoe through those swells and return to land
alive.  Other than that, I can't think of a single reason to venture beyond
the Grand Tetons. <G> I remain as always.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >Looking forward to the day,
> >
> >Laura Rugel Glise
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:34:18 -0800
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis

I suspect that tipis 20 ft. large would be council lodges not family
dwellings.  The Dakota (Eastern Sioux) had hide lodges of not more than 12
ft. in diameter as standard dwellings.  Most of their transportation was by
canoe or dog as horses in the forests of Minnesota was more impractical than
the other methods.  In the Plains, hide tipis could be larger but generally
one or two women put up a lodge so there is a practical limit there as well.
It really wasn't until the Reservation period and the advent of canvas tipis
that the larger sizes became common. Consider that a larger lodge made it
harder to warm during the winter.  For most practical reasons "less is
more".

Larry Huber.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis


> I have had as many as 39 adults in an 18' tipi.  Now we were not sleeping
> together mind you, but it was a great closeness.  Also, that could have
been two
> lodges put together as they sometimes did.  There are old drawings of this
and
> photos.
> I could see a large 20 or 22 out of hides.  But it would be a "girl dog"
to set
> up.
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Hallo the List,
> >
> > In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having
large
> > teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty
> > people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather
small
> > because of the weight.
> >
> > Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may
be a
> > good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft
lodge,
> > and that looked rather full....
> >
> > Ymos,
> > Magpie
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:42:02 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis

Canvas, linen or cloth covers for tipis started becoming popular among the
Native
 Americans around 1851.  According to Kurz's  1851 journal, more of the wealthy
men were
 already getting canvas for their lodges.  Treaty annuity payments in the late
1850s and
 1860s, also were accompanied by lots of canvas bed ticking an other fabrics.
As the 19th.
 century wore on, the covers got bigger.  More bolder surface designs were
applied with the
 new industrial paints and dyes that did not wash off or fade.  Looking at old
photos of
 Blackfoot tipis, drawings of the Kiowa, Cheyenne, and Sioux depicts
spectacular  cover
 paintings in their sketch books.

LInda Holley

Larry Huber wrote:

> I suspect that tipis 20 ft. large would be council lodges not family
> dwellings.  The Dakota (Eastern Sioux) had hide lodges of not more than 12
> ft. in diameter as standard dwellings.  Most of their transportation was by
> canoe or dog as horses in the forests of Minnesota was more impractical than
> the other methods.  In the Plains, hide tipis could be larger but generally
> one or two women put up a lodge so there is a practical limit there as well.
> It really wasn't until the Reservation period and the advent of canvas tipis
> that the larger sizes became common. Consider that a larger lodge made it
> harder to warm during the winter.  For most practical reasons "less is
> more".
>
> Larry Huber.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis
>
> > I have had as many as 39 adults in an 18' tipi.  Now we were not sleeping
> > together mind you, but it was a great closeness.  Also, that could have
> been two
> > lodges put together as they sometimes did.  There are old drawings of this
> and
> > photos.
> > I could see a large 20 or 22 out of hides.  But it would be a "girl dog"
> to set
> > up.
> >
> > [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > > Hallo the List,
> > >
> > > In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having
> large
> > > teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty
> > > people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather
> small
> > > because of the weight.
> > >
> > > Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may
> be a
> > > good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft
> lodge,
> > > and that looked rather full....
> > >
> > > Ymos,
> > > Magpie
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:45:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis

In 1967 and again in 1968 at the Sun Dance in Pine Ridge South Dakota I saw
an unusual tipi that would hold great numbers.  It was for a gathering of a
large number of "Sioux of significant station".  Though I didn't count them
the accomodations would easily have been equal or better than what you
described for the Cheyenne.  (Actually, there were Cheyenne at this gathering
as well - came down from the North - they got a long real well with the
Lakota).  What they had done was pitch two tipis together but they set the
base of the poles 'way out so the profile was low.  Not many could stand up
but a whole bunch could sit down.

I have also been to a Shoshone wedding where the lodge cover was unpinned and
roled back about 30 - 40% of the diameter so that those not actually within
the tipi could view inside and were considered part of the whole as if they
had all been within the enclosure.  This may not be close to explanation for
the situation you described in your original question but it is in trivia an
account of "real Indian" occurances when the problem of "too many people -
not enough tipi" has arisen.

And the trivia rolls on . . . . .  My feeling is that most early tipis were
quite small is based on a couple of experiences:  The day we re-buried "Liver
Eatin' Johnston"  we woke up by Old Trail Town in Cody, Wyoming to discover
that when we pitched our tipis the night before (in the dark, of course) we
had camped in an old Crow site.  Tipi rings were scattered all through our
camp and the tipis  looked to be about 12 footers.   East of the original
1825 Rendezvous site and along the face of the bluffs that run north (paralel
to the road to Green River)  I found more tipi circles.  Though they were
most likely Shoshone, they were the same approximate size.  Further info:
These are  both Wyoming sites, right in the rocky part of the Rockies.  I
have destroyed many a tipi peg in these places and can see why the earier
inhabitants just held their tipis down along the edges with rocks.  And
"goody for them" as they left the "fingerprints" of their camps for us to
identify today.

Maybe this will at least be interesting to you.  If not - that's why they
have delete buttons.

Richard James
AMM 79

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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:42:23 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Ho the list
I acquired an old copy of "Astoria or Anecdotes of an Enterprise beyond =
the Rocky Mountains" by Washington Irving and have begun reading it.  I =
have a question:
How historically accurate is this book considered to be?  In the book's =
introduction Irving tells of being given access to all of Astor's =
records and using these as a source for the book.  Have serious doubts =
been raised concerning the historical reliability of this work?  The =
book is a good read, one way or another.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:51:23 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Article in local papers (Aux Aliments du Pays)

Man survives month in California forest

Gorman, Calif. - A 25 year-old man who wandered into the Angeles
National Forest a month ago and got lost has been found alive, police
said.  Sean Kelly, who was reported missing Sept.30 was found by a
hunter Monday [Oct.30] in the Knapp Ranch area of the forest, about 60
miles north of downtown Los Angeles ... Kelly, who was too weak to walk
out [rescuers airlifted him out], said he survived by eating roots and
bugs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:58:23 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Lanney,   It is all second hand info.  ,  as Irving never went West.
Take it with a grain of salt.  From what I understand, Irving had some
political connections that have affected his viewpoints?  I'd have to dig
to find some sources for this opinion, but...  Irving was never in the
West.  hardtack

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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:02:22 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Ho the list...again,
After posing the question to the list about the historical authenticity =
of Washington Irving's Astoria, I found a good answer for my own =
question at:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch2/0242.html
Apparently Mr. Edgeley W. Todd, a respected historian, has documented =
Irving's work to be highly historically accurate.
I would still like to hear the opinions of others.
Lanney


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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:09:39 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Article in local papers (Aux Aliments du Pays)

This man was on the run from the law, he didn't want to be found, until
he got tired of eating bugs, and was getting too weak to manage.  He also
had Army Ranger training.  "Survival experts on Tuesday agreed that
living off the land is possible, but a tough task in the dry Southern
California chaparral.  With some basic skills and knowledge of local
plant life, one can get by, they say.  And humans can usually live two
weeks or more with no food at all"  Los Angeles Times, Nov. 1.
hardtack

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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:46:23 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Guess it depends on what is classified as "the West"  Washington Irving wrote
about his adventures in the west in a book entitled "A Tour on the Prairies"
This details his journey with Capt. Jesse Bean and the US Rangers in 1832.  I
read it a few years ago and enjoyed it very much..

Till trails cross
Turtle

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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:36:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Lanney:

True:  Washington Irving was a voyeur.  He happened upon Captain Bonneville's
life.  Sure, he painted a wizardely or is it wizardly (who cares?) tale of
lore.  Fact is that Irving didn't go west, really.  He was an editor.  He met
Bonneville at the dinner table of Jacob Astor.  He happened upon Bonneville
later, spied his manuscripts/notes and took the Bonneville's story to print.
Bonneville.  Was he a spy for the states?  Was he just deplete of a good
story to tell after "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow?"  I don't care.  What I
adore is that Bonneville's words/phrases/descriptions are so phenomenally
beautifully and inspired that I flee to a bookseller to find a pirated copy
of his narration . . . . NOW many years later.

You have a copy in your own collection.

Laura Rugel Glise




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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 06:37:06 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Dear Laura,

Did you really mean to say......"True:  Washington Irving was a....
"voyeur".........???????
<G>

John


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"


> Lanney:
>
> True:  Washington Irving was a voyeur.  He happened upon Captain
Bonneville's
> life.  Sure, he painted a wizardely or is it wizardly (who cares?) tale of
> lore.  Fact is that Irving didn't go west, really.  He was an editor.  He
met
> Bonneville at the dinner table of Jacob Astor.  He happened upon
Bonneville
> later, spied his manuscripts/notes and took the Bonneville's story to
print.
> Bonneville.  Was he a spy for the states?  Was he just deplete of a good
> story to tell after "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow?"  I don't care.  What I
> adore is that Bonneville's words/phrases/descriptions are so phenomenally
> beautifully and inspired that I flee to a bookseller to find a pirated
copy
> of his narration . . . . NOW many years later.
>
> You have a copy in your own collection.
>
> Laura Rugel Glise
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 09:47:48 -0700
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

Dr. Fred Gowans' opinion was that the books (Bonneville and Astoria) could
be used as general knowledge but because the source documents are lacking
and not footnoted, are considered second hand and so are subjsect to
literary license.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ratcliff
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:42 PM
To: AMM
Subject: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"


Ho the list
I acquired an old copy of "Astoria or Anecdotes of an Enterprise beyond the
Rocky Mountains" by Washington Irving and have begun reading it.  I have a
question:
How historically accurate is this book considered to be?  In the book's
introduction Irving tells of being given access to all of Astor's records
and using these as a source for the book.  Have serious doubts been raised
concerning the historical reliability of this work?  The book is a good
read, one way or another.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:18:14 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis

Richard....that was very interesting...thanks for the post.

Ymos,
Magpie

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:45:43 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

John:

Now that I look up the literal (blush) meaning of "voyeur," I would have to
retract my statement that Irving was a voyeur.  I should have said,"I think
he lived vicariously through the adventures of Captain Bonneville."

Laura

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:19:27 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

You wrote:
"Dr. Fred Gowans' opinion was that the books (Bonneville and Astoria) =
could
be used as general knowledge but because the source documents are =
lacking
and not footnoted, are considered second hand and so are subjsect to
literary license."

That is generally the opinion I am getting.  Since I never intended to =
use the book as a reference I will simply enjoy reading it with a =
reasonable assurance of it not being simply Irving's imagination or =
speculation.  The first chapters have been entertaining.
Thanks to all who have responded to my original query.
Lanney Ratcliff


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:10:21 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Washington Irving's "Astoria"

In a message dated 11/2/0 05:46:53 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Now that I look up the literal (blush) meaning of "voyeur," I would have to
retract my statement that Irving was a voyeur.  I should have said,"I think
he lived vicariously through the adventures of Captain Bonneville."

Laura
>>

Just observing from the distance I thought your original statement conjured
up all sorts of exercises for the imagination.  . . . maybe voyageur . . .
maybe an onlooker or observer when defined in 1800s rather than the
contemporary useage . . . maybe . . . . but then you got out your dictionary
and ended the game.  Thanks for a little excitement while it lasted.
Richard James

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------------------------------

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