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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #657 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, October 23 2000 Volume 01 : Number 657 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: buffalo tongue -áááááá MtMan-List: mex gourd saddle -áááááá Re MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets -áááááá MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak -áááááá MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets, bending topic towards dye -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Fort Hall's Builder -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: metis/Pendleton -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau/1676 -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Magpie -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis/ponyrider -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis/ponyrider -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis/Pendleton -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis/Moc -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak -áááááá Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking -áááááá MtMan-List: Mocs/Nationality. -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue -áááááá Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: trekking -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: trekking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:44:37 MDT From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Ho there camp, i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in northern ter. going deeper into history ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:51:06 MDT From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: mex gourd saddle Ho horse people; at one time the fur trade historans said this might of been one of the first kind of saddles that came out of st. loue. i just sold mine to a german and would like to know the for sure on this. thanks ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:30:58 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets "Watchum Possum" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> wrote: >Does anyone on the list have any references for navy or dark blue = >blankets or trade wool? Well, I've got lots of references to blue cloth and blue strouds from the Canadian fur trade, pre-1821, and even one from the Pacific Fur Co. in 1812. Nothing specifying 'navy blue' or 'dark blue', though; also, no blue blankets. I always tend to think 'indigo blue' when I see 'blue', since that seems to be the most common & cheapest blue dyestuff for this period. Hope this helps! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:38:45 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak Hey camp, I was lucky enuf this past weekend to come across a coon with a hank of buffler meat. I got me a true enuf buffler steak. Not bad for the eastern woodland. I wanna know if there is a great way of cooking up this steak as it will be a special treat. My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail beside the chattooga river and cook it up and chaw the fat with some other coons around the fire. Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. Preciate it!! - -C. Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:57:53 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak >Any hints on cooking up this buffler without > ruirning this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. Meat's meat. Either you know how to cook meat or you don't. > My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail beside the chattooga river and cook it >up and chaw the fat with some other coons around the fire. Language's language. Same rules apply except trying to spice it up don't add much flavor when you use that TV lingo. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:00:11 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak In a message dated 10/22/00 6:39:32 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: << Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. >> HikingOnthru, Sometimes kinda hard to come up with buffler meat.... Out here in the NW, (Washington) we have a food store called Fred Myers (Freddies), and they have fresh buffalo in stock at the meat counter, about once every 3 months. I try to stock up whenever I see it, but it's rather spendy...more than beef. You didn't say what kinda cut ya had, but if it's steak, cook it just like beef and enjoy. If you have a roast, marinate it over night in your favorite blend, and then cook it slowly over a wood fire on a green stick or two.... Slice off a piece or two as the outside becomes done to yer liking..... great eating! Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:20:51 -0400 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Navy Blue Blankets, bending topic towards dye Angela, Have you done any indigo dyeing? The reason I ask is that my efforts (although most assuredly ameteurish) resulted in shades which were substantially lighter than any reasonable definition of "navy" in spite of repeated soakings in freshened solutions. Like you, I've believe that indigo is correct for the time but was wondering if there's something else that might have produced a darker blue. Tom Angela Gottfred wrote: > "Watchum Possum" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> wrote: > >Does anyone on the list have any references for navy or dark blue = > >blankets or trade wool? > > Well, I've got lots of references to blue cloth and blue strouds from the > Canadian fur trade, pre-1821, and even one from the Pacific Fur Co. in > 1812. Nothing specifying 'navy blue' or 'dark blue', though; also, no blue > blankets. I always tend to think 'indigo blue' when I see 'blue', since > that seems to be the most common & cheapest blue dyestuff for this period. > > Hope this helps! > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:59:09 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fort Hall's Builder " ... Fort Hall, the log post built by Nathaniel Wyeth on the Snake River near the mouth of the Portneuf. The post had been finished in August 1834 ..." c.f. Trappers of the Far West [Hafen], p.246. also Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography [Thrapp], Vol.3, p.1604. Hi Jon, I notice the same reference source Hafen. Thanks for the post. Do you think Nathaniel Wyeth cut the logs himself? He was management. Management usually is given credit for what laborers build. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:59:13 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis/Pendleton >>Walt, Explain something to sir. How do you figure the drawings of Miller yeild a lot of information about the culture of the Metis ? The men Miller depicted in his drawings had been in the mountains a year or more. They had been living with and trading with the Indians the Indians the whole time. Hell, they all looked the same except for the 'hands' who wrangled the pack strings from St. Louis, and most of them didn't look much different. I'm confused ! Pendleton Hi Pendleton, It has been said that them old time mountain men could tell tribal/cultures by their moccasins tracks. I can tell the difference between some of the northern plains moccasins types by looking at them. Millers drawing are full of detail. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:59:11 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau/1676 Jean Baptiste Charbonneau returned from Europe to America and set out from St. Louis on 12-23-1829, along with some men from the American Fur Company, headed for the Upper Missouri Hi Jim, I like your story better than I do mine. Setting out for the upper Missouri 2 days before Christmas seems a bit fool hardy for someone who grew up in Europe. While getting in the fire wood over the last several days I have been trying to remember the resource that I read on Pomp. I can remember the 3 different times and places attributed to his mothers death. But what stands out was that he was said to have been 30 when he returned. I also remember it said he was a clerk in California for 15 years and in trying to return to Montana died of mountain fever in the lower bitterroot in his late 50s. I think the source was the Montana Historical magazine that is published out of the Montana State Museum was where I read it. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:59:07 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Magpie Hallo the list: Last Friday about dusk I had the opportunity to meet a list member Magpie, who flew in. I drove over to pick up Mike King to come along and look over this bird.[bg] Mike is the son of the famous ML maker from the late 50s through the 60s and 70s. He grew up around this stuff. It took a bit to locate the Magpie and when we did we hit it right off. He knew right where I was talking about in terms of the northern most part of these Rocky Mountains where I spent some serious time up on horse back. I showed him my knife case [the one that my knife does not fall out of] and explained how I made it. He looked at my knife and said he had one by D. that was a bit longer. I spent the next few days getting in winter wood. This is the first opportunity to be back on this electronic smoke signal. It was great to meet someone on the list face to face. Thanks Magpie!! Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:07:31 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis/ponyrider Ho the camp Ponyrider, I'm coming on in. Ponyrider, you and me are the only ones I know up on this list who are from the Billings area. I think I recognize Jim Hardee's name from a picture on one of them early Buckskinner books. If I remember right he was up on horseback riding in the water. Crossing a creek in south western Montana. The photo credit said he was from Billings. I tried to look him up back then without any luck. But he came through on your side Ponyrider with the documentation about Pomp being in the RMFT for 14 years according to Haffen. Great stuff! Helps to counter Allen in Fort Hall Country. I do not know what to tell them boys who cannot see the metis style moccasin in Miller's work. Maybe Magpie can help us here. He helped me once before with a Miller picture. The one I have mentioned is the one Titled Rocky Mountain Trapper. It shows a man standing with a trade gun. The details of the moccasins are enough to see the center seam. Ankle flap. And ankle wrap. Features of the metis style moccasin. You and I along with others looked at the same style of moccasins worn by Gary Johnson the famous beader who is in all the old books about this art. At the Archeology week presentations in Billings featuring a Lodge Grass presenter to talk about the Metis in Montana. There have been several others who have offered supportive material to the active thesis of metis in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. During American times from 1806 to 1840. The cut off date that is very old and very firm except on a sub regional basis where the fur trade still exists. The whole American stem and blossom starts with the Lewis and Clark Expedition and John Coulter remaining to trap with Dixon and Hancock. The come into flower of the Ashley's 100 men. And the thriving were accompanied from within by metis. That is why Pendleton and those guys are saying "they all look alike" in the Miller drawings of the next rendezvous event after they had left the 5 month long winter camp between the mouth of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone River and Park City, Montana. It takes an educated minds eye sometimes to tell the difference in what we are looking at. A little while back on this list. They were saying Miller could not draw. His work was like a cartoon drawing. Lacked details. I also see the Whately pattern of northwest trade gun in the drawing titled Rocky Mountain Trapper. Maybe they think I ain't putting the wood on the fire properly. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana well well now!! to say that the metis were not of rmf in montana is truely a lack of montana history. to asume that because montana and north dakota are not in canada history would not entwine.There are rows in history class and the back row is hard of hearing but there are more books printed than what you have read or own. From the north fur trade(border states to)we didn"t know how to speak mex or about the mex influance in everyday life. there seems to be a piece of the fur trade picture you refuse to acknowlage.i can not force you to gain any new knowledge if you are not welling to search in new places. my suggested ref. seem not to interest you or are not in your library scope. i will then revert back to general speaking. to say not any of your authors did not run accross metis. in the fur trade few knew how to write, with the metis not wishing to be seen by white fur people, In the big country of montana and north dakota the indian head whole villages for years(with more domestic eye's to see ) indian and fur trappers did record cree,red river metis and the carts witch i have given titles. i have all so listed North Dakota and montana museums were you can see proof of metis.there plenty of internet stuff you can see. there has been roughly thirty hiverrant metis settlements found in Alberta,saskatchewan and MONTANA(NOT IN CANADA). there are also alot of priest journals discribing travel with the metis cart hunters. setting in the back row and busy making small time wise cracks, i can see why you just hear what you want. bet that was not a montana history class your were in, F- even if you were cute. oh well i have question for the people with some fur trade know. ponyrider - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:59:57 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rmt fur trade:metis/ponyrider The details of the moccasins are enough to see the center seam. Ankle flap. And ankle wrap >>Walt, Are you trying to tell us, that a man's ancestry could be determined by this information ? I don't think so ! They were saying Miller could not draw. His work was like a cartoon drawing. Lacked details. >>Walt, You didn't hear that from me. There are tons of details in Miller's works. Maybe they think I ain't putting the wood on the fire properly. >>Walt, Let me loan you my flint and steel. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:44:44 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Pendleton It has been said that them old time mountain men could tell tribal/cultures by their moccasins tracks. >> I do believe sir, you are the victim of too many 'B' movies. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:54:29 -0400 From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis/Moc The best way to tell what tribe a fella is a member of by his moc is when you are taking it off his cold, dead foot cause he doon need it no more.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:05:41 -0600 From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cooking buffalo steak - -C Kent, I guess you need to decide if the hunk of meat you have is tough or maybe even tender. If tough, boil it. And keep the water you boil it in for soups, gravys and just to drink. It will have good flavor and be a good source of liquids later on. If it is any where close to regular meat in toughness, cook it like others have said. Most like their buffalo one shade different when cooked than regular beef. Buffalo tends to dry out when cooked too long, so if you like your beef medium rare (like myself), try alittle less on this. Buffalo can be hard and dry on the outside, under done and bloody on the inside if cut too thick. But, with alittle experience, it can be a great meal all by it's self. mike. p.s. Is your first name Clark? (Sorry, just humor on a dark, drizzly monday) HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey camp, > > I was lucky enuf this past weekend to come across a coon with a hank of > buffler meat. I got me a true enuf buffler steak. Not bad for the eastern > woodland. I wanna know if there is a great way of cooking up this steak as > it will be a special treat. My desire is to build me a fire out on the trail > beside the chattooga river and cook it up and chaw the fat with some other > coons around the fire. Any hints on cooking up this buffler without ruirning > this special treat. I wnat this feed to be a ture shinin' time. > > Preciate it!! > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:02:13 -0500 From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Thanks for the information. Frankly, I thought that this subject was pretty much settled. Even Baker acknowledged that the use of the word trek was not "period correct" for the long-hunter era he writes about, and that he had used it simply because it conveyed the sense what he was attempting to impart. Trek is a Boer word and I accept the Oxford English Dictionary when it comes to first usage of words in English. My nine volume set is still in storage, but when I looked up the word several years ago when this topic was on the table, if my memory is correct, it seems that it was first used in English in the 1830's or early '40's in South Africa. Further, as stated, it never appears in written form in any American work (or British) prior to that time-frame, and thereafter to other English/British writers as it became accepted in general usage. As to the use of the word jaunt, what Rick conveyed seems very much like what was discussed on multiple lists, also several years ago, in response to an AMM Brother's (from Arizona as I recall) complaint about the use of the word trek, and at that time most agreed that jaunt was acceptable, although I do not recall an instance of it being used in any document, journal, etc. in the New World during any of the time-frames we so enjoy recreating. Bless Mark for furnishing us with such a divisive topic. I will bet that this same debate will be carried on for years to come, by others, and after them by others still. Regards, Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Conner <conner1@about.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > Pablo, > > The business getting to you already "I am > confused", only kidding. > > What Concho has stated was pretty much as I > remember what was said. We really didn't get a > time frame or period as to what British > documents, in fact Rick thought the word "jaunt' > would have been more correct for the colonies in > the New World. I'll try and get a chance to look > at Dean's archives, don't recall if there was > anything with dates. > > Oh, change my e-mail address, lost address book, > etc. on other system. > > Buck. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I am confused by this reply. Did you mean that > it was historically correct or did you mistype > the word correct intending to say incorrect? The > earliest usage I can find of the word per the > Oxford English Dictionary is from the mid-1800's > as a Boer word. I have never, ever, seen it used > in documents, letters, or primary documentation > prior to that time frame. > Without searching the archives, what was the > substance of Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel L. Smith > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > > Larry, > > If you go through the hist_list archives > you'll find that this was talked about in great > length, finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being > editor of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the > term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their > writings. > You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the > three) knew it was historically correct but was > old and used in text of British ventures in > Africa. Hope that helps, check the archives. > > Concho. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Later, > > Barry "Buck" Conner > Resource & Documentation for: > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". > ________________________________________HRD__ > > Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > Visit HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ______________________________________________ > Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:40:47 GMT From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Mocs/Nationality. In 1834 Wyeth's expedition to the Rockies included such members as J. Townsend, and Osborne Russel(one of Ft. Hall's builders,) they both made a written description of their travels. Townsend says they stopped and traded with the "Kaw" indians they "...bought corn, moccasins, and leggings in abundance." Now if we use the the theory that a persons ancestry could be judged by their mocs, then everyone in the Wyeth party would now be Kaw indians!! I'm quite sure that Wyeth, Russel, Townsend, and others had no Native American ancestry, much less that of the Kaw. The Miller painting given as an example, entitled "Rocky Mountain Trapper," is usually entitled as "Bill Burrows(sp): Rocky Mountain Trapper." I have not seen a biography of this man, but would be interested in it if someone else has. The blanket coat he wears has pockets, and was a tailored garment, he also wears a felt hat, these things could tell a different story of Mr. Burrows ancestry. Is he Metis?? It's possible, but it's just as likely he is American or otherwise. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:13:36 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Terrance, "Old Sturbridge Cookbook" Beef Tongue and Buffalo Tongue were cured and smoked for use like ham or roast beef. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com> >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue >Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000, 6:44 PM > > Ho there camp, >i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo >tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the >settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how >big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in >northern ter. > going deeper into history > ponyrider >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:32:42 -0600 From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Pablo, I say old man, let's take a "jaunt" and move on. Concho. - ---- Begin Original Message ---- From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:02:13 -0500 To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking Thanks for the information. Frankly, I thought that this subject was pretty much settled. Even Baker acknowledged that the use of the word trek was not "period correct" for the long-hunter era he writes about, and that he had used it simply because it conveyed the sense what he was attempting to impart. Trek is a Boer word and I accept the Oxford English Dictionary when it comes to first usage of words in English. My nine volume set is still in storage, but when I looked up the word several years ago when this topic was on the table, if my memory is correct, it seems that it was first used in English in the 1830's or early '40's in South Africa. Further, as stated, it never appears in written form in any American work (or British) prior to that time-frame, and thereafter to other English/British writers as it became accepted in general usage. As to the use of the word jaunt, what Rick conveyed seems very much like what was discussed on multiple lists, also several years ago, in response to an AMM Brother's (from Arizona as I recall) complaint about the use of the word trek, and at that time most agreed that jaunt was acceptable, although I do not recall an instance of it being used in any document, journal, etc. in the New World during any of the time-frames we so enjoy recreating. Bless Mark for furnishing us with such a divisive topic. I will bet that this same debate will be carried on for years to come, by others, and after them by others still. Regards, Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Conner <conner1@about.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > Pablo, > > The business getting to you already "I am > confused", only kidding. > > What Concho has stated was pretty much as I > remember what was said. We really didn't get a > time frame or period as to what British > documents, in fact Rick thought the word "jaunt' > would have been more correct for the colonies in > the New World. I'll try and get a chance to look > at Dean's archives, don't recall if there was > anything with dates. > > Oh, change my e-mail address, lost address book, > etc. on other system. > > Buck. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I am confused by this reply. Did you mean that > it was historically correct or did you mistype > the word correct intending to say incorrect? The > earliest usage I can find of the word per the > Oxford English Dictionary is from the mid-1800's > as a Boer word. I have never, ever, seen it used > in documents, letters, or primary documentation > prior to that time frame. > Without searching the archives, what was the > substance of Rick's reply? Thanks. Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel L. Smith > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 2:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > > Larry, > > If you go through the hist_list archives > you'll find that this was talked about in great > length, finally Buck wrote to Rick Edwards, being > editor of "On The Trail" and seemed to use the > term alot, as did Baker and Curry in their > writings. > You'll find Rick's reply, that they (the > three) knew it was historically correct but was > old and used in text of British ventures in > Africa. Hope that helps, check the archives. > > Concho. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---- End Original Message ---- </TT> <TT> Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith Research & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit the HRD at: http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ______________________________________________ </TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:25:01 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking D Youbetcha! Watch out for Simba. I would suggest: PEREGRINATE per=B7e=B7gri=B7nate [](per=C6i gr=C3 n!t=C5), v., -nat=B7ed, -nat=B7ing. =96v.i. 1. to travel or journey, esp. to walk on foot. =96v.t. 2. to travel or walk over; traverse. [1585=9695; < L peregr#n!tus, ptp. of peregr#n!r# to travel abroad. See=20 PEREGRINE, -ATE1] =97per=C6e=B7gri=B7na=C5tor, n. It is terminology correct to the period as is jaunt, tour, roam, rove,=20 excursion, & journey; it's more the style of the language of the period. Besides: Transmountaine Pereginations sounds way cooler than a walk around= =20 the mountain. We can be Great Historical Peregrinators, most folks will giggle and think= =20 we're talking dirty. John... At 06:53 PM 10/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >John, > So this means that if we are on a "trek", we are more likely to run into= a >cape buffalo and Masai tribesmen than bull elk & Shawnee warriors???.<G> >D > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:32:59 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trekking > We can be Great Historical Peregrinators, most folks will giggle and think > we're talking dirty. John, They would probably think that we were into falconry and start to go on about how we are abusing protected species. Dave - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #657 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.