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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #655
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Friday, October 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 655
In this issue:
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá MtMan-List: matchcoats
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá MtMan-List: A message to Grizz
-áááááá MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dec. TRUE WEST-mountain man issue
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
-áááááá MtMan-List: Antique Arms, Accutermants, etc History Fair this weekend
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:06:48 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis
My point was more that the Metis were NOT a factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur
Trade as Walt says. I still haven't found anything to change my opinion on
that.
Allen
Allen I beg to differ with you. Indeed the Metis as we know them in
Montana were a strong factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade to the north.
By north I mean by north of the North Platte all the way over to Council,
Idaho. This includes all of Yellowstone Park and the surrounding environs.
Taking in the head waters of Three Forks of the upper Missouri River. This
northern group is way different from the central Rockies and different yet
from the southern Rockies. Dress and the four way mix of cultures stemming
in on this particular piece of geography. The big medicine wheel of
Yellowstone Park.
Walt
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:33:02 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis
Dear Allan, et.all,.
There does seem to be more interest in this point than necessary. The
Metis culture and the formation of the concept of a "New Nation" has been
deeply rooted in Canadian history since Cuthbert Grant and the Battle of
Seven Oaks before 1820. There was no "New Nation" movement in the U.S. side
of the boarder. No royal charter, no promise of knighthood, none of that
King and country stuff. Therefore, no 200 year-old absentee government to
reject. The Americans took care of that early on. There was a mestizo
culture to the South (Mix of Spanish/Indian)and it exits today in Mexico.
There seems to have been an active "culture" of mixed bloods in Canada
and those that venture somewhat south. When Minnesota was becoming a state,
the Metis(half-breeds) petitioned for a reservation separate from the
Dakotas who were their relatives. Apparently, they did consider themselves
"something else" then Indians. These people were a active and often
prominent force in early Minnesota history and politics. But were they a
"force" in the Rocky Mountain trade? When McKenzie took over the Western
division of the American Fur Company, he absorbed into his work force many
of the employees from his former Columbia Fur. These men were borrowed,
originally, from the Northwest Company that McKenzie was active in. A
goodly number were voyagers. Were Metis among them? Most likely but how do
you prove a man's origin from his last name? A French or Scotch last name
does not prove Indian parentage.
That "mixed blood" employees were active throughout the U.S. fur trade
seems like an unarguable point. How active? Definitely active. A
motivating force? No. Not like the usage of the Metis in a political
struggle between the Northwest Company and Hudson Bay in Canada. What is a
Metis? Was Jon Baptiste Charbonneau a Metis? This was "Pomp", the union
between Toussaint and Sacagawea. He was raised and educated "white" by
Clark to be a bridge between the two cultures. Rumor has it that he entered
the fur trade but records on this man fall quickly into myth, documents
being scarce. Yet, he was a major historical "Metis" that disappeared from
our history and wasn't much of a "force" in the trade.
So, what's the argument? Can we agree that mixed-bloods were active in
the U.S. fur trade? I say "hell, yes". Did they drive the fur brigades of
the Rocky Mountains and involve themselves politically in the Rocky Mountain
as they did in Canada? No way. Were they among the construction labor
that built posts and forts along the waterways of the Missouri? Probably.
But documentation will be difficult. Did they build Fort Hall? I don't
know. Does anyone? Can anyone? Does anyone care anymore? Next topic,
please.
Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Foster <Wfoster@cw2.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis
>
>
>
> My point was more that the Metis were NOT a factor in the Rocky Mountain
Fur
> Trade as Walt says. I still haven't found anything to change my opinion
on
> that.
>
> Allen
>
>
> Allen I beg to differ with you. Indeed the Metis as we know them in
> Montana were a strong factor in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade to the north.
> By north I mean by north of the North Platte all the way over to Council,
> Idaho. This includes all of Yellowstone Park and the surrounding
environs.
> Taking in the head waters of Three Forks of the upper Missouri River.
This
> northern group is way different from the central Rockies and different yet
> from the southern Rockies. Dress and the four way mix of cultures
stemming
> in on this particular piece of geography. The big medicine wheel of
> Yellowstone Park.
> Walt
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:30:40 EDT
From: Mtnman1449@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels
I thought originally he was going to have three sets of three. I'm not a
home and didn't bother to count them, but are there now eight or nine books?
If eight, I expect one more if he's still on the original plan. Maybe he's
finished. I don't know. P.
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:34:36 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis
Dear, et.all,.
Was Jon Baptiste Charbonneau a Metis? This was "Pomp", the union
between Toussaint and Sacagawea. He was raised and educated "white" by
Clark to be a bridge between the two cultures. Rumor has it that he entered
the fur trade but records on this man fall quickly into myth, documents
being scarce. Yet, he was a major historical "Metis" that disappeared from
our history and wasn't much of a "force" in the trade.
Larry Huber
Hi Larry,
Not much activity on this history list. Which leaves room for this point
about "Pomp" Born 1805. Raised and educated in Germany. Did not return to
US until after the age of 30. Which would make it about 1835 or later. As
you know this is almost the end of the fur trade era of 1825 - 1840. He
was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade.
I think in pure numbers the children of the fur trade were present and
active on all fronts of the northern rocky mountain fur trade in the US to
the extend that they were a large labor force and were counted on heavily
because they proved to be reliable men.
I also think that with the new interest in the Lewis and Clark expedition
that more information about the children of the fur trade west of North
Dakota and south of Canada will be emerging. And this could give us a
better understand of their relationship and involvement in the northern
rocky mountain fur trade.
The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture.
Walt
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:40:05 -0600
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry Johnston Novels
Pat,
The list in front of the latest book shows:
carry the wind
borderlords
one-eyed dream
dance on the wind
buffalo palace
crack in the sky
ride the moon down
death rattle
mike.
Mtnman1449@aol.com wrote:
> I thought originally he was going to have three sets of three. I'm not a
> home and didn't bother to count them, but are there now eight or nine books?
> If eight, I expect one more if he's still on the original plan. Maybe he's
> finished. I don't know. P.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:58:12 -0600
From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis
Hello,
My apologies to the list. I intended my last e-mail on this subject line to
be private to Angela.
I won't be replying to anything about it on the list, though I'd be happy to
carry on the conversation privately.
Again, sorry.
Allen
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:47:15 -0600
From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
Fellow Terry C. Johnston fans, The Final chapter in the Titus Bass saga
is due to be released next April. It's called "Wind Walker." I'm just
afraid we may see the end of ole Scratch. I hope not. Kinda like to see
him move on to Oreegon of California or somewhere and retire peacefully.
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:42:00 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis
The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture.
Walt
>>Walt,
Explain something to sir. How do you figure the drawings of Miller yeild
a lot of information about the culture of the Metis ? The men Miller
depicted in his drawings had been in the mountains a year or more. They had
been living with and trading with the Indians the Indians the whole time.
Hell, they all looked the same except for the 'hands' who wrangled the pack
strings from St. Louis, and most of them didn't look much different. I'm
confused !
Pendleton
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:36:08 EDT
From: WSmith4100@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
hello the camp,
Are all y'all familiar with Terry C. Johnston's web site?
if not, here the tracks:
http://www.imt.net/~tjohnston/
Enjoy...
ZZZZZZZZz
Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: dave tonneman <davetowz@excite.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: matchcoats
I see references to matchcoats alot. Can anyone describe this to me?
I gather that it ts simply a blanket, but that is all I can figure.
Thanks,
Dave Tonneman, Ohio territory.
_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:28:11 EDT
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jean Baptiste Charbonneau
In a message dated 10/18/00 11:35:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Wfoster@cw2.com writes:
> He was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade.
I fail to understand how you can make such a statement. Here's my source:
According to Ann Hafen, in a ten book series titled "Mountain Men and the Fur
Trade of the Far West," Jean Baptiste Charbonneau returned from Europe to
America and set out from St. Louis on 12-23-1829, along with some men from
the American Fur Company, headed for the Upper Missouri. Hafen says "The
next fifteen years of Baptiste's life were lived as a Mountain Man, threading
the streams of the western wilderness in search of beaver skin." (Hafen, Vol.
1, page 212, "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West" Authur H Clark
Co., Glendale, CA, 1965)
Please provide a source to support your statemtn that Charbonneau was born
too late to be a part of the fur trade. It seems that this and many of your
other responses to this list are made without supporting documentation. If
Ms. Hafen is wrong, I'd like to know why.
Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:44:29 -0600
From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
uhhhh like ya.....WSmith4100....I am familiar with the site...that's like
uuuuhhhhh where I got the information.........=)
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party, #1784
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:00:51 -0600
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis
Larry,
While Jim beat me in answer this, I would like to add alittle myself.
Pomp shows up in quite a few places, eating dinner with the missionary wives,
hunting with various guys besides traveling in the west (like Stewart if I
remember
right). You can check with Dean Rudy's web site at
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtnman.html/names/names.html
(names of people in fur trade) to check out my listing of where you can find
references for him. If I remember right, he is found in about 11 books and
written about on 40(+ or-) pages.
There are various spellings of his name, like Chabonard (a half breed). It is
true that you don't find him as a stand out in the fur trade, but like a lot of
other
men, played a important part. And the west would be a little empty with out
him. What makes J. B. so left out when it comes to the fur trade is various
books which portaryed him in Europe and world traveling. Thus, not spending
much time in the west. But he did. And he packed alot in to his life. I only
wish I could be like that. Does he fit the "Metis" profile? I guess in some ways
yes, but I don't consider him one because of his lifestyle and places he lived.
I don't think he lived much in the N.W. or was employed by any of the forts
there. But, that is something I need to check on.
mike.
Walt Foster wrote:
> Dear, et.all,.
> Was Jon Baptiste Charbonneau a Metis? This was "Pomp", the union
> between Toussaint and Sacagawea. He was raised and educated "white" by
> Clark to be a bridge between the two cultures. Rumor has it that he entered
> the fur trade but records on this man fall quickly into myth, documents
> being scarce. Yet, he was a major historical "Metis" that disappeared from
> our history and wasn't much of a "force" in the trade.
>
> Larry Huber
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Not much activity on this history list. Which leaves room for this point
> about "Pomp" Born 1805. Raised and educated in Germany. Did not return to
> US until after the age of 30. Which would make it about 1835 or later. As
> you know this is almost the end of the fur trade era of 1825 - 1840. He
> was not born in time to be a part of the fur trade.
>
> I think in pure numbers the children of the fur trade were present and
> active on all fronts of the northern rocky mountain fur trade in the US to
> the extend that they were a large labor force and were counted on heavily
> because they proved to be reliable men.
>
> I also think that with the new interest in the Lewis and Clark expedition
> that more information about the children of the fur trade west of North
> Dakota and south of Canada will be emerging. And this could give us a
> better understand of their relationship and involvement in the northern
> rocky mountain fur trade.
>
> The drawings of Alfred Miller yield a lot of information about this culture.
>
> Walt
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:18:12 -0400
From: "Possum Hunter" <icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: A message to Grizz
I am posting this to the list Cuz Mindspring keeps bouncing this message I
keep trying to send to you. And people wonder why I dumped Mindspring!
You wote:
> I would love to visit this Mountain Man store, could you please tell me
where the town is located in South Carolina?
Howdy Grizz!
The store is The K Company they are located in Pelzer SC. They are open
Tues-Saturday from 10-6 You can call 'em at 1-800-977-2788 or
1-864-947-2788.
The best way to go from NC is to take I-85 South of Greenville to State
Route 8. Go accross bridge and over US 25. Go through West Pelzer. Be very
carefull. The speed limit is 35 and it is enforced! go accross State Route
20 at the Exxon station. Go past the Post Office on the right then The K
Company is in the small strip mall on the left. They are next door to
Columbo's Chicago Style Pizza.
Email me afore you go and I will make sure the owner is there. She and her
husband go to all the ronnys and Pow-Wows around. You will like Kay and her
husband Coyote Bill. They are good people.
If you want, We can try to meet each other there. I am easy to spot as I am
the only one who wears a Possum skin hat with the face on! On many
Saturdays, Good Heart,the Cheif of the SC Cherokee tribe is there along with
Cowboy, Coyote, Q and myself and others.
Watch yer topknot!
Possum
Learn how to live a plain and simple lifestyle! Go to
http://www.egroups.com/group/PlainAndSimpleLifestyle and subscribe today!
"No man can truly know Christ except he follow him in life" (Testimony of
Anabaptist leader Hans Denk)
Genesis 2:17 "Do not eat of the fruit of the technology that makes edible
the inedible." (Translation by Ray Audette)
Dein O Herr, ist das Reich allein, Und auch die Macht zu sammen, Wir loben
dich in der gemein, Und danken deinem namen, Und bitten dich aus hersens
grund, Wollst bey uns seyn zu dieser Stund, Durch Jesum Christum. Amen. (
Das 131. Lied - Ausbund)
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:04:38 GMT
From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: metis
Larry,
Plan on staying confused......
Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
- ---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:22:25 EDT
From: Hawkengun@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Dec. TRUE WEST-mountain man issue
You might be interested in checking out the Dec. upcoming issue of TRUE WEST
magazine, as that issue is more or less dedicated to mountain men and the fur
trade.
I hope you check out my article on William T. "Uncle Bill" Hamilton, but
other high points include Paul Andrew Hutton's article on the Battle of
King's Mtn. and RG Robertson's guide to western fur trade posts.
And as a final piece of self-promotion, let me say that the the buck antelope
I shot this month a few miles north of Bent's Old Fort is mighty good eating.
I'm looking for references to antelope and antelope hunting amongst
fur-trade primary docs. I'd appreciate any help in that department.
Thanks,
John R. Sweet
Palmer Lake, CO
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:09:50 EDT
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
Hey Camp!
Just an aside...a bunch of folks may actually try reading trhese Terry C.
Johnston Novels and I, for one am glad to see one more of the Titus Bass
series is due up. Still, when we talk about them let us not give away the
plot. I am just in the last quarter of DEATH RATTLE and someone
inadvertently gave away the ending. Takes a little punch out of the reading!
Let us all be considerate of others who may enjoy the same books that have
stoked our fires for learning more of the furtrade era!
- -C. Kent
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:39:10 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
Hi Folks, For those of you who enjoyed Johnston's Novels, I would
recommend a couple of novels by W. Michael Gear- The Morning River &
Coyote Summer. These are a series in the vein of scratch and Josiah; ie.
A seasoned Mtn. Man grooming a Pilgrim for survival in the West. The
year is 1825 and the story involves going upriver from St Louis. ISBN #s
0-812-55153-2 and 0-812-57115-0 . I'm having fun reading them (I'm half
way through the second Novel). Just my opinion, but I recommend them as
a good read. hardtack
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:56:17 -0600
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANNOUNCEMENT-Terry Johnston Novels
I agree with Randy, those are good books and I promise not to tell the
ending this time. Sorry, I figure that all of you are like me and read the
books of Terry's when they first come out. So, alot of Titus and Josiah's
stories are old hat by the time six months pass. I mean you have to keep
up and have the current read a couple times before the new one comes out
, right???
mike.
Randal J Bublitz wrote:
> Hi Folks, For those of you who enjoyed Johnston's Novels, I would
> recommend a couple of novels by W. Michael Gear- The Morning River &
> Coyote Summer. These are a series in the vein of scratch and Josiah; ie.
> A seasoned Mtn. Man grooming a Pilgrim for survival in the West. The
> year is 1825 and the story involves going upriver from St Louis. ISBN #s
> 0-812-55153-2 and 0-812-57115-0 . I'm having fun reading them (I'm half
> way through the second Novel). Just my opinion, but I recommend them as
> a good read. hardtack
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:45:17 -0400
From: Jim Lockmiller <manbear@netonecom.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Arms, Accutermants, etc History Fair this weekend
Just wondering if anyone from the list will be attending the Kalamazoo,
MI History Fair this weekend. If anyone is interested check out the
following link. This is one of the largest Antique Gun and Accuterment
shows in the area and is well worth attending if you are able. The show
is held at the Kalamazoo County Fair Grounds and there are 3 very large
rooms filled with dealers from all around the country.
If any of you are going to attend maybe we can get an palaver a bit.
I'm 6'6" tall and weigh in at around 320. I'll be wearing a blue plaid
great kilt with a maroon colored waistcoat and a blue tam with a white
cocade and a pheasant feather. If you happen to spot such a critter
stop him and say hello, it might just be me. If not whoever it is might
just know who and where I might me.
http://www.historyfair.com/
Til Another time, perhaps this weekend, Travel Well
Manbear
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------------------------------
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