ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n647

Internet Message Format | 2000-10-10 | 37KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #647
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Tuesday, October 10 2000       Volume 01 : Number 647



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Laguna Mountain Rendezvous
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?!
-áááááá MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction
-áááááá MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá MtMan-List: Destruction of the Bison
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OT............NRA..........tonight on ABC
-áááááá MtMan-List: Metis and Comanceros/Ciboleros
-áááááá MtMan-List: metis lang-michif
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá MtMan-List: Journals and Metis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metis
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: metis

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:55:24 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Walt,
Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as
well.
But I can't remember the name of the breed.
YMOS
Ole #718
- ----------
>From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
>Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 5:10 PM
>

>Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had
>was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure?
>
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb.  The Vikings used the Shetland
>pony.  The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading
>both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG
>
>
>Walt
>Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
>Clark Bottom Rendezvous
>Yellowstone Canoe Camp
>On the Lewis & Clark Trail
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:19:17 GMT
From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.

Mr. Jensen,
I do not have a copy of "Man Made Mobile." I have read it a couple of times
though. Does the letter written to the war dept. describe the spanish saddle
as having pads or skirts, also what is the dates of the correspondence??
Records show the sell of "spanish" saddles, bare or "complete," interpreted
to mean padded, and rigged with skirts.  If that is the case then those were
hybrid saddles.  I had the pleasure of hearing Clay Landry speak on AFC
records at the Fur Trade Symposium last month, and one item he addressed was
saddles. His research has shown that the term "spanish," had nothing to do
with the origin of the saddle, but described the type of tree. If that is
the case then couldn't it be possible, that some of Grimsley's "spanish"
saddles were hybrids??

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
- ---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:37:39 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG

>              Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page?
>

>>He does not
D



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:36:19 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

frank
we hammered the buffilo thing to death last year---got blood thursty and
all you  might look at the archives and see what everyone decided
on---just my humbel opinion no flack---

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce       "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line    TRADEMARK
(C)
854 Glenfield Drive,    Palm Harbor,    Florida        34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]     Phone:  [phone]
Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:03:11 -0700
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

> Walt,
> Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as
> well.

Hallo the Camp......

There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), the Icelandic horse.
Smallish, hairy, and sturdy.  Of Nordic origions I believe.  I did not know the
seafarers of the north took their horses with them.  Had to have been hard on
them in those boats.

The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions and was used as a tiny draft
horse in the mines.

As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify this all this.

Regards

Lee of North Idaho


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:38:02 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES

John,
  Thanks for the response.  I don't have a picture of the knife, and my damn
scanner is a real pain to use, so I'll describe the knife as best I can.
  It has most likely been rehandled, that's just a guess.  The slabs are of
an unknown wood attached by 4 copper pins, roughly peened over.  2 of the
pins have small copper washers on them.
  The blade is of the same size, shape, and design as a Green River Skinner.
There are no markings on it of any kind.  It is a little thinner than a new
Green River Skinner, and it is not as smooth on the sides.  There are slight
indentions that run the length of the blade that indicate it may have been
cut from a handforged saw blade.  Now before anyone jumps in here, it ain't
no damn Old Hickory.  These marks are not stamped into it.  They may or may
not be hammer marks.
  What do you think ?  I'll get a picture made of it one of these days.
Pendleton


- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES


At 02:58 PM 10/8/00 -0700, you wrote:

>On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into
>knives, in the fur trade era ?  I have a old skinnin knife that appears to
>have been home made from a very old saw blade.

Pendelton,

If a saw was broken beyond repair the steel would be used to make other
tools, a similar fate came to worn and/or broken files.  Nothing would be
thrown away.

Look deep into yours.  How was the saw made and subsequently how was the
knife made?  Can you identify the tooth pattern that was on the saw?  Is
the mode of manufacture consistent with technology common before 1840?  How
is the grip mounted?  Was the kns.opforged, filed or ground?  Show us a
picture.

John...



Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:12:20 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Roger and All,
  We kicked this subject at length about a year ago.  I was of the opinon it
was Brucellosis that played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo, but
others had documentaion otherwise.  I still believe disease had to have had
a part in it.  As you have stated the numbers in the hide counts just don't
add up.  Plus the fact that it is debateable that it was not possible to
haul that much powder and lead to the Plains.
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]



>     Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were
> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to
subdue
> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport.

Frank,

That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather
compellingly that such was not strictly the case.

>     Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near
extinction.
> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing
was
> the main cause.

The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the
near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were
involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the
buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo
as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what
commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on
only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not
support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains
indian culutre.


Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling
and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the
Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature.
Neither premise is completely true. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'










- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:23:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Breeders claim lineage going back 1000 years for the
Icelandic, 13-14 hands tall but weighing 800 pounds
and carrying a 300 pound 6 foot Icelander with no
problem. Now THAT'S a horse!

http://www.icefarm.com/news.htm

http://www.ice-horse.com/west.html

- --- Lee Newbill <[e-mail]> wrote:
> "Ole B. Jensen" wrote:
>
> > Walt,
> > Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another
> small horse they used as
> > well.
>
> Hallo the Camp......
>
> There is a small horse called (if my memory serves),
> the Icelandic horse.
> Smallish, hairy, and sturdy.  Of Nordic origions I
> believe.  I did not know the
> seafarers of the north took their horses with them.
> Had to have been hard on
> them in those boats.
>
> The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions
> and was used as a tiny draft
> horse in the mines.
>
> As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify
> this all this.
>
> Regards
>
> Lee of North Idaho


=====
defstones

I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart.
e e cummings )

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:42:33 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Laguna Mountain Rendezvous

Hello the camp...  A grand event coming up 10/18 through 10/22, in the
northern San Diego county area of Southern California, near Julian.
It's primitive, but not a 'juried' event; we run this one to help 'greenies'
get started.

Anybody from either list that's going to be attending?  Have an interest in
having a list members get-together? Let me know, here or offline, and we can
post a meetin' notice on the bulletin board at the entrance to camp...

Ralph (Barney Fife aka Shoots Himself aka Hole-In-Arm)

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:49:15 -0700
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?!

Hallo Scott

scott mcmahon wrote:

>         I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains
> but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they
> were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this
> true?

I don't recollect anyone answering your question, so I'll toss my hat into the ring
for a moment in time...   From my readings, Metis (mixed-bloods) is a term mostly
connected with the Canadian/French/British fur trade of the north.  A lot of them were
employed by the fur companies up this a way.  No real bad rep as a whole that I'm
aware of like the Comancheros had.

> Not that
> it's really that important to me but where is the documentation for the
> Metis fort builders that has been dodged so fervently of late?

Of the Nor'Westers, a Metis by the name of Jaco Finlay (Jacques Finlay) was an
important figure in the construction of several posts, including Spokane House
(1811).  He accompanied and worked with David Thompson while he was in the Pacific
Northwest.

And the horse stuff..... lemme see, I'm too poor to even contemplate a new saddle...
so cain't help you there, the mare is lame 'cause she tried to kick the snot outa the
gelding through the fence after he bit her in the arse, and while the hat don't come
off at a gallop, the brim has a tendacy to flip down over the eyes... but that's Ok,
who the heck wants to see where a hell bent for leather, greenbroke mare that is
terrified of mud puddles is going anyways.....

Regards from cold and wet Idaho

Lee Newbill



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:12:40 -0700
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction

I too agree we covered this a year ago. I won't argue with the theory that
disease finished off the remnants of the buffalo herd rather suddenly.
HOWEVER, the proposition that the required ammunition "couldn't have been
carried west" doesn't hold up. Suppose we allow for 5,000,000 rounds a year,
over a 20 year period, resulting in 100 million rounds, allowing for some
natural increase and misses while killing 50 million-plus buffalo. Assume 20
balls per pound. This requires 250,000 lbs of lead per year. Seems like a
lot? BUT - if we assume that 250 trains per year travelled to suitable
regions of the west with shipments of ammunition, it's only 1000 lbs of lead
per train (plus the matching powder) -- a modest corner of the baggage car.
If early boxcars carried 10 tons each, the entire shipment would occupy
15-20 cars. It COULDA happened, even if these numbers are pretty far off.
Trains carry a lot of weight. The powder and ball would only be a tiny
fraction of the shipping weight to return hides, tongues, etc. I, too, would
like to see those tallies -- but one has to allow for an unknown amount of
wastage if the reports of wanton killing are to be believed. To kill
5,000,000 buffalo per year might require 1000 hunters at 5000 buffalo each,
assuming the hunter killed 100 per day for 50 days a year. From what I
gather, you could shoot this many in a single "stand", limited more by
reloading rate I suppose. You'd have to skin them pretty fast to bring back
100 hides per hunter -- anybody have stats on the composition of such crews?
At 20 lbs per hide, we would gather a ton of hides a day per hunter, loading
up a wagon train within a few days. The expedition would return to the
railroad to ship and resupply every week or so, probably bringing enough
hides to fill a boxcar or two. Each hunter would require 400-500 pounds of
ammo per year, and return 100,000 lbs of robes (25 10-ton boxcars), assuming
no wastage. There would be 4 such persons travelling on each of my 250
trains -- it's a lot of activity but spread out across the west, it's not
absurd on the face of it.
Pat Quilter

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:22:32 MDT
From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: metis

now were to start,i will keep it short as i can if you want to know more
please email. to start you reading off or proof of metis here is a start i
have more if you run short on belief, in cluding my news letter on metis.
THE NEW PEOPLESbeing and becoming metis in north america by jacqueline
peterson and jennifer s. h. brown./strange empireby joseph kinsey howard/the
red river trails oxcart routes between st paul and the selkirk settlements
1820/1870. now for some reserce info out of our room on the fur trade and
metis. if do not belief my infor i can sure coff it up or puke it all over
you.there is NO and i mean NO CONNECTION between metis and comencaro of the
south. the cajun yes NOT THE COMENCARO. the furturest south that i can proof
to now is utah per mr. hanson,s books.sent by the hudson bay com. to check
fur trade market. the turm french canadan was usuly nice way of saying breed
at that time.so if you read that term at that era good chance that person
was a metis.to be reconized as a nation people recognized by heir
food,clothing,flag,history and politcal movement. i can cover all this just
ask and you shall recieve.(by records-usa-canada) as far as being in on alot
of fort building.

ft union has their own flyer put out to people that explains metis names at
fort union building and working in after,allso covers ft walla fur fort.(my
boy was on one of walla digs of to day).the metis was employed in the fur
trade before there was a fur trade in the west.were sent out west by the big
fur companys to build. at that stage of the fur trade if the name sounded
french good chance,metis. so if at the NORTHERN FORTS there was a french
name on the roster good change we were there.in fact beiing compared to a
southern comencaro really gets digging hiverant file,s. if you want books to
read iam finding more and more, hope you have alot of time.we were indian
traders  also traded in villages of that history era. for instenc 1820,s the
metis cart brigades were the most powerful force on the northern plains.Fact
put into most history books. sence the metis were children from the furmen
and indian women they were first imployed into the fur trade, covering all
asspects of the industry . sorry if we were the first and still in the fur
trade (north canada). the whole socity of metis came from the northern fur
indusry with indian and euro mix to form the new nation. come to think of it
there has even been shows made covering this same thing. this is about has
bad as the person say he didn,t think a cart was used in the north part of
fur trade( ha have got proof on that one)
please leave the metis out of the south west.please read history of the
north first. we had a differant fur trade and the last. when you come to the
north country remimber we were different world with different history . in
the fur trade the new comer to the north died if he could not change . i
sorry iam calmer now. if you need records or proof of metis in the fur trade
please get a hold of me. of cart patterns, or bead patterns of metis please
see me.michif language,metis recipes any thing! if i don,t know i can find
someone that does.
  angela hope your files are better shape then mine i just torn the h---
out of the hiverant metis files.  how are you as a back up in pissinmatch?
Walt you r going to have to hobble me i snorting and blowing. metis are a
big part of fur trade why havent they read this its in black and white all
over.


hiverants metis
preserve and research of metis history
bring metis and friends of metis into
traditions of the hiverant metis

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:26:21 GMT
From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Destruction of the Bison

Ho the list,

An excellent new book on this topic is titled The Destruction of the Bison
by Andrew C. Isenberg.  I have read the book and my review of it will be in
the next Confluence News (in November, I think).

Isenberg offers much good information and he concludes that the buffalo
almost went extinct because of a combination of human (not just white)
hunting, disease, climate changes, and over-competition for grazing from
horses and cattle.  If you can find it, get it and read it.  One of his main
points is that the buffalo was on the decline anyway when white hunters
entered the picture, thus all they did was simply quicken something that
would have happened anyway in a couple more decades.

He also offers an interesting look at how sportsmen helped save the buffalo.

Just by two cents worth,

Robert

"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838

- ----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:31:12 GMT
From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis

All three are excellent books.  We sell the first two at Fort Union.
Another good one is Children of the Fur Trade: The Forgotten Metis of the
Pacific Northwest.

Robert

"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838

- ----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union

- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: metis
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:22:32 MDT

THE NEW PEOPLESbeing and becoming metis in north america by jacqueline
peterson and jennifer s. h. brown./strange empireby joseph kinsey howard/the
red river trails oxcart routes between st paul and the selkirk settlements
1820/1870





_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:45:46 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT............NRA..........tonight on ABC

How did the NRA do hope it did not make us look like gun nuts like tv always
makes us out to be.did we hold ground?
[e-mail]

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:50:38 GMT
From: "scott mcmahon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Metis and Comanceros/Ciboleros

    Well I guess I riled up the old Metis Luff! I apologize for any inference
that the Metis were connected to the southwest...what I was getting at was
that(from my limited knowledge) the Metis were into trading and buffalo
hunting which is what the Comanchero and Cibolero did. And to the remark
made in respects to the reputation of the Comanchero...this came along after
the furtrade era, during our times they were simply traders from Mexican
villages who traded blankets and foodstuffs for robes and livestock. I know
there is alot of difference in the Northern and Southern plains BUT I don't
think one was tougher than the other... you still had dangerous tribes to
deal with as well as severe weather and alot of wild animals that were as
dangerous as the weather and Indians! I think the letters from Man Made
Mobile as well as the fact that there are few surviving samples sways me
away from the Hybrid... Cliff you were right, the term Spanish does not
refer to place of origin but the style of tree ie. rawhided wood which was
alot stronger/different than the English and European styles of
construction. The US Dragoons gave a poor report on the Grimsley hybrid
produced for their use sayiing that the under panels came un-stuffed and
wore sores on the horses backs(leading me to believe they didn't use
blankets?). I'm interested in hearing what the other horsemen are using out
there...anyone have anything to share on this? One last note... I found that
caps, while not illustrated in Miller's works are very servicable for the
horseman and are a period alternative to the felt hat.

    Sincerely,
    Scott McMahon
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:58:47 MDT
From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif

a composite of indian tongue, usually cree and chippewa, and french english
and gaelic. the french used was old french an is obsolete. the metis usuly
can not make out ne french but can understand some. the same with the cree
and chippewa language.
the word metis means mix is most language form. the metis started usuing the
word when alot of the familys were marrying into indian and white familys.
so some of the people were a mix instead of a half breed. i meet all kinds
of metis some indian looking alot white looking.     i am a scot indian
metis one of the old names they would call a scot mix was a black scot. the
name for metis by the northern plains people were flower bead people. the
hand sign for metis was two cicle,s by fingers the draw a line down center.
stand for two worlds or men with wagons.  some time michif is used by the
turtle mt. chippewa to id them selfs as turtle mt. metis.
  i sill tearing files up on ft. hall give me a few days and i will tell
you. remiber also alot of metis would not tell people of their indian or
metis back ground
  angle do you have any thing on ft hall?


preserve and reseach metis history
bring metis and friends into traditions
of the hiverant metis


ponyrider
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:19:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis

OK, so what makes a person a metis?  If a St. Louis Frenchman married a
Southern Cheyenne woman, were their kids metis?  (Such as William Guerrier
did, resulting in Ed Guerrier-- a "half-breed Cheyenne" in the parlance of
the 19th Century southern plains)

Or is there something about the proximity to Canada that makes a mixed
French/Indian person a metis?  (So if Guerrier had married a Northern
Cheyenne and spent all of his time north of the S. Platte, THEN his kids
would have been metis.)

What do we say that metis means  (because I've never heard of the Guerriers
described as Metis)?

john r sweet

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:25:02 -0600
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis

Gentlemen,

Going through several journals from the period I find by going through the
indexes:

Journal of a Mountain Man by James Clyman:  No mention of Metis

40 Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri. Charles Larpenteur:  No mention
of Metis

Adventures of a Mountain Man by Zenas Leonard:  No mention of Metis

Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell:  No mention of Metis

Life in the Rocky Mountains by Warren Angus Ferris:  No mention of Metis

Edward Warren by William Drummond Stewart:  No mention of Metis

Broken Hand by Leroy Hafen:  No mention of Metis

Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter:  No mention of Metis

Jedediah Smith, by Dale Morgan:  No mention of Metis


I really like history, and I like facts about history even better.  This is
from the guys that were there.  I'm sure that everyone knows that Osborne
Russell in fact, WAS there at the building of Fort Hall.  Osborne didn't
mention Metis.

Well, this has been fun, and made me did into the documentation again.

Allen in Fort Hall country



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:25:01 -0600
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis

Mr. Luff,

Just to clarify, are you saying that Metis are half breeds/mixed breeds?

And are you including all mixed/half breeds as Metis?

Just trying to understand what we're defining here.

Thanks,

Allen


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:37:57 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country.

Walt,

Aux Aliments de Pays is French.  Not Metis.  If some of the Metis used
French, that doesn't mean they invented it.  Or built Fort Hall, or were the
pivitol force in the fur trade era.

This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people.  But you are claiming, so
far with no documentation, far more than they did.

>It pays to know your roots in this sport.
>
It sure does......Allen

Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country



Alright Allen,
I will start in one step at a time.
First of all the French fur trade connection was broken for all time in
1763.  It took until 1770 to jump start it.
Several Metis were with Lewis and Clark 1804, 1805 and 1806.
While camped out for the winter in North Dakota.  Lewis and Clark could have
spent the winter in a large well supplied Metis town a mere 160 miles to the
north, Pebina...opps my spelling.
In 1805, La Roche:  A Metis was here on the upper Yellowstone before Captain
Clark arrived in July 1806.
One source of documentation is THE AMERICAN WEST.  THE MAGAZINE OF WESTERN
HISTORY.  Published by the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, Wyoming.
Sponsored by the Western History Association. July/August 1978 Volume XV,
Number 4.  Page 4.  The Mountain Men by William H Goetzmann.  The Brief and
Glorious Era of the Frontier Trapper.  His credit line reads:  William H.
Goetzmann is director of the American Studies Program at the University of
Texas in Austin.  He was awarded the 1967 Pulitzer Prize in history for
Exploration and Empire:  The Explorer and the Scientist in the Winning of
the American West.  On page 14 he writes about "Wyeth , angry and
disappointed, moved west, constructed Fort Hall on the Salmon Fork of the
Columbia,"  He goes on to say "by 1834, however, the Rocky Mountain Fur
Company was dead, its partnership dissolved, never to be revived again."
And in between stated "....Fort Hall became an important outfitting post on
the trail to Oregon."  On page 15 is an illustration by Alfred Miller titled
Rocky Mountain Trapper.  Pictured is a Metis.  I have noticed when you get
real serious you flash your 1729.  Think about it.  Pretend you are a
student instead of a professor perhaps that will permit you to see the vast,
deep and wide influence of the Metis.  They were there and they are still
here.  Ponyrider, have you burned up your saddle blankets yet? VBG.  As you
can read Fort Hall was not a significant part of the fur trade.  It did not
appear until the very end.  Employers did not do the work.  The Metis did.
And the Metis built Fort McKenzie as well.  I think if you will conduct a
little reference work yourself you will see what mean.
Walt out of his badgerhole
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana




- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:48:17 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction

About the disappearance of the buffalo.  I have read some primary sources
from plainsmen and buffalo hunters and traders (both white and otherwise) but
I don't recall any mention of huge die-offs.  Without exception they stated
that overhunting was the reason for the disappearance of the buff.  Surely a
great buffalo epidemic during the 1860s-80s wouldn't have escaped mention in
the primary documents.

Is there any mention of it in any sources you all have seen?  Is there
conclusive archaeological evidence?  If not, then I'll write it off (for now)
as the theory of one more academic trying to make a mark.

jrs

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:49:49 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis

OK, so what makes a person a metis?  If a St. Louis Frenchman married a
Southern Cheyenne woman, were their kids metis?  (Such as William Guerrier
did, resulting in Ed Guerrier-- a "half-breed Cheyenne" in the parlance of
the 19th Century southern plains)

Or is there something about the proximity to Canada that makes a mixed
French/Indian person a metis?  (So if Guerrier had married a Northern
Cheyenne and spent all of his time north of the S. Platte, THEN his kids
would have been metis.)

What do we say that metis means  (because I've never heard of the Guerriers
described as Metis)?

john r sweet

Hi John, by 1804 the population of St. Louis was 5,000.  Half American and
half French.  If William was in the fur trade.  A descendent of the pre 1763
St. Louis fur trade then the off spring of one of those would seem to be the
mixed blood of Metis.  The second example more so because the Metis appears
to be a cultural thing that spread growing from the beginning of the fur
trade as it spread west growing into the core left.  They may be Metis and
not know it.

Cheers,

Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana





- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #647
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.