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hist_text-digest       Tuesday, October 10 2000       Volume 01 : Number 646



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC?
-áááááá MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG
-áááááá MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?!
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?!
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:44 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG
-áááááá MtMan-List: Parker Moore & Blackie
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:36:21 -0500
From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC?

> I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later.  My persona is the 1835
> Longhunter and it fits me.  It is also a great shooting rifle.  I think it
> is modeled after the original Hawken.  I can not wait to hear from all the
> experts on this one.
>
>
The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio
styled
gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light
stock,
thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with
thick
wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels.

The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real
Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago.

I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there,
currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original
Hawken in archetecture, much less come close  to the weight, feel and
quality of the original guns

Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800.
J.D.



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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:52:16 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Ole Jenson said,

    <. We did not hunt the
buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame>

    Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were
decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue
the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport.
    Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction.
Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was
the main cause.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG

>. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern
> Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter serving tray
> and goblets.
>
Don't you DARE stop here!!  You have GOT to finish this story!! *grins*

Ad Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:05:30 GMT
From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.

Scott,

I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list
member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn.  Maybe he can shed
some light.  I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on
them.  They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme
wear to the padding.  There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM
nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs.  Those saddles
were for sale.  Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I
saw them this summer.  It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree.
I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation
of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them.
The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost.
Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time.


Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
- ---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:27:41 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

>     Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were
> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to
subdue
> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport.

Frank,

That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather
compellingly that such was not strictly the case.

>     Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near
extinction.
> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing
was
> the main cause.

The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the
near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were
involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the
buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo
as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what
commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on
only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not
support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains
indian culutre.


Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling
and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the
Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature.
Neither premise is completely true. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'










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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:50:06 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Frank,
I will do this from memory so cut me some slack.
Lewis and Clark estimated that there were 60 Milion Bison on the plains, now
even if there were 40 Million, that is 1/3 less the birth rate would be
around 27 million per year. Even with a death rate of 40% from old age and
over hunting this would leave 40.2 million left which is a net gain of
around 20 thousand. Taking into account that the smokeless cartridge did not
realy come into use until the late 1880's this would mean that all 40
million Buffalo were killed by Black Powder weapons and Bow's and Arrows.
Another thing to remember is that the Buffalo trade was heavily regulated
and the number of hides harvested were counted and taxed and the record does
not come up to anything close to 40 million. The conclusion that I and many
others have come up with is this, that Bovine Diseases killed the Buffalo in
the same way that Smallpox whiped out the Mandan. this is not to say that
there was not a government policy to Desimate the tribes by destroying there
food supply, there was that. (See Buckskin Report around 1979) Propoganda
for Political action is where the story comes from.
We have also been lead to belive that the Horse was not on this Continent
until the Spanish braught them here, I am starting to belive that this is
also based on bad science. the Vikings were known to travel with small
horses like the Barb, What about the Spanish,French,Dutch,English,Portugese,
what about the notion Catlin put forth concerning the oregins of the Mandan
tribe. things to think about.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
>To: "AMM" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
>Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 2:52 PM
>

>Ole Jenson said,
>
>    <. We did not hunt the
>buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame>
>
>    Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were
>decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue
>the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport.
>    Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction.
>Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was
>the main cause.
>Frank G. Fusco
>Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:55:27 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.

Cliff,
The "Hybrid Saddle" that Grimsley made was not the Saddle that he made for
the Fur Trade. The Hybrid Saddle was specified by the War Dept. for use of
the 1st Mounted Dragoons. (See Man Made Mobile)
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
>Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:05 PM
>

>Scott,
>
>I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list
>member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn.  Maybe he can shed
>some light.  I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on
>them.  They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme
>wear to the padding.  There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM
>nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs.  Those saddles
>were for sale.  Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I
>saw them this summer.  It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree.
>I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation
>of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them.
>The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost.
>Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time.
>
>
>Cliff Tiffie
>PO Box 5089
>Durant, OK
>74702
>580-924-4187
>---------------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:59:32 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Capt,
I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
>Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:27 PM
>

>
>>     Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were
>> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to
>subdue
>> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport.
>
>Frank,
>
>That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather
>compellingly that such was not strictly the case.
>
>>     Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near
>extinction.
>> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing
>was
>> the main cause.
>
>The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the
>near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were
>involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the
>buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo
>as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what
>commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on
>only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not
>support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains
>indian culutre.
>
>
>Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling
>and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the
>Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature.
>Neither premise is completely true. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Field reports and records of so many market hunters
and vandalistic shooters (plus Native American
legends) say, over and over, that they went out and
NEVER found "ANY LIVE" buffalo last seen from the
previous year. Now THAT'S rather sudden as if an
epidemic came in with the winter winds. Archaelogy may
yet find conclusive evidence to support the bovine
dis-ease decimation theory.


- --- Frank Fusco <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Ole Jenson said,
>
>     <. We did not hunt the
> buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to
> blame>
>
>     Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that
> the buffalo were
> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter
> in an attempt to subdue
> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport.
>     Also over hunting by market hunters contributed
> to the near extinction.
> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for
> the sake of killing was
> the main cause.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, Arkansas


=====
defstones

I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart.
e e cummings )

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:24:25 GMT
From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.

"Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to
Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the
best qualities of the Spanish saddle;  the simple rugged construction of the
tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted
flat seat of the English saddle.  He took English saddle padding and applied
it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse.  He
attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also
of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from
"Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an
abundance of saddles to the AFC.  Wes Housler brought the majority of the
information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his
outfit.  No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is
purely speculation.  I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
- ---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:55:29 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]


> Capt,
> I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718

Ole,

I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. <G> I figured
you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to
start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in.

There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or
otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills
over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very
questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse
culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other
words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but
didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw
them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising
horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them
before Columbus.

Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had
was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure?

 There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the
land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may
have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and
changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the
pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a
big role in that extinction.

Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First
People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of
this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's
fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing
is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has
been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the
Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:55:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.

Cliff,
 The fact that there is not any of these saddles
around, may indicate they were not sucessful.
 If they were good, they would probably would have
been repaired or reproduced.The good stays, and the
bad is usually weeded out !! Looks like a failure to
me.
Just my $00.02
George


- --- Chance Tiffie <[e-mail]> wrote:
> .
> (The success or failure of the saddle is
> unfortunately lost.)
> >
>
> Cliff Tiffie
> PO Box 5089
> Durant, OK
> 74702
> 580-924-4187
> ---------------------
> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
>


=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:05:42 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?!

        I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the
plains
but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they
were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this
true        Sincerely,
        Scott McMahon

Hello Scott,

I do not think so.  Texas is a long ways from the Children of the Fur Trade.


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana





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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:05:45 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?!

AND while I'm on the horse
business...I haven't been riding half as long as some of you guys(I haven't
been alive half as long as some of you guys!) but learned real quick that
unless you wear your hat "rodeo" style ie. pulled down to your ears and the
right wind catches it it's coming off unless it's tied down, but that's just
my short accumulation of experience...I may be wrong?! Look forward to any
comments.

        Sincerely,
        Scott McMahon

Scott,

Them stiff new hats don't do real well in the mountains unless they are
broke in.

Down to the ears is good.  Learn to lean into the wind.

It is a long ways from here to Texas.  I do not know much about Texas.

Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:10:15 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had
was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure?


YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb.  The Vikings used the Shetland
pony.  The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading
both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG


Walt
Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Clark Bottom Rendezvous
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana





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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:39:09 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:44 -0500

Did anybody else see Todd Glover's letter to the editor in the November =
2000 issue of Popular Mechanics, praising the magazine for running a =
Ruger handgun ad?
Way to go Todd.
YF&B
Lanney Ratcliff



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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:40:01 -0400
From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC?

Can not comment much on the Uberti vs the LPR, I do know that the old timers
that I asked when I was getting started told me that out of all the
production guns I could buy, the Lyman Plains Rifle was the closest when it
came to looks and the weight.  I can tell you that the LPR is a very heavy
rifle weighing in at 9lbs.  I was also told that I could show up to
Friendship with this rifle and shoot it without any problems.

Now on the Longhunter era. I believe the beginning of the "boschloper" /
"coureur de bois" was sometime in the late 1700's.  I also believe that the
Longhunter era ranged into the early 1800's.  Now I guess it depends on what
years you consider early.

I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man dress
suits me fine.  At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the
mountain men and the Indians just fine.  Since I am down here in Georgia in
the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake.  These were
whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians.  Yeh, that's me
but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter.

JD, thanks for the input.  I see that I will half to do more research.



>
> > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later.  My persona is the 1835
> > Longhunter and it fits me.  It is also a great shooting rifle.  I think
it
> > is modeled after the original Hawken.  I can not wait to hear from all
the
> > experts on this one.
> >
> >
> The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio
> styled
> gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the
light
> stock,
> thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with
> thick
> wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels.
>
> The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real
> Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago.
>
> I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there,
> currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original
> Hawken in archetecture, much less come close  to the weight, feel and
> quality of the original guns
>
> Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800.
> J.D.
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:20:37 -0500
From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern
> > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter
> serving tray
> > and goblets.

     Mr. Hunt,

          I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement <G>,
          but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and
          his famous horse Blackie.
             Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page?

   Thanks,
   Victoria
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:26:22 -0500
From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Parker Moore & Blackie

.

     "Mr. Hunt,

          I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement <G>,
          but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and
          his famous horse Blackie.
             Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page?"

   Thanks,
   Victoria

Victoria,

You are absolutely correct, anyone who knows Parker and has spent any time
with him will tell you that he is truly a very interesting character. Very
interesting. <VBG>

Randy Hedden
"Harddog"
On the Great Sauk Trail



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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:48:41 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.

Cliff,
I have handled the Hybrid Saddle about 5 years back, and it had Grimsley's
stamp on it.
In Man Made Mobile there are two letters from Grimsley to the War Dept..
The first letter is a proposal to the war department which describes the
spanish saddle
he had furnished to the fur company.
The second letter describes the saddle which they had requested he build,
you will find that the two letters are describing diferent saddles. So as I
said the "Hybrid" saddle was not sold to the fur company, that is not to say
some of them did not see service during the fur trade.
YMOS
Ole #718
- ----------
>From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles.
>Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:24 PM
>

>
>
>"Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to
>Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the
>best qualities of the Spanish saddle;  the simple rugged construction of the
>tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted
>flat seat of the English saddle.  He took English saddle padding and applied
>it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse.  He
>attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also
>of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from
>"Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an
>abundance of saddles to the AFC.  Wes Housler brought the majority of the
>information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his
>outfit.  No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is
>purely speculation.  I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there.
>
>Cliff Tiffie
>PO Box 5089
>Durant, OK
>74702
>580-924-4187
>---------------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:57:48 -0600
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall.

At 01:58 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Walt,
>Just show me the facts  The motto, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is
>unimportant to me.
>
>Cliff Tiffie


> ---------------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!

Walt,

Aux Aliments de Pays is French.  Not Metis.  If some of the Metis used
French, that doesn't mean they invented it.  Or built Fort Hall, or were the
pivitol force in the fur trade era.

This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people.  But you are claiming, so
far with no documentation, far more than they did.


>It pays to know your roots in this sport.
>
It sure does......

Allen

Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:51:45 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]

Capt,
Exactly right!
YMOS
Ole #718
- ----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
>Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:55 PM
>

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff]
>
>
>> Capt,
>> I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money.
>> YMOS
>> Ole # 718
>
>Ole,
>
>I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. <G> I figured
>you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to
>start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in.
>
>There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or
>otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills
>over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very
>questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse
>culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other
>words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but
>didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw
>them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising
>horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them
>before Columbus.
>
>Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had
>was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure?
>
> There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the
>land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may
>have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and
>changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the
>pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a
>big role in that extinction.
>
>Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First
>People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of
>this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's
>fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing
>is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has
>been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the
>Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
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