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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, September 26 2000      Volume 01 : Number 633



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short)
-áááááá MtMan-List: hugh glass
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: hugh glass
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: hugh glass
-áááááá MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ibid? References
-áááááá Fw: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
-áááááá MtMan-List: GUN REFRESHER COURSE
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:12:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short)

Hate to bring the industrial revolution into this
thread but a lot of factories needed conveyor belts
and the cattle and buffalo herds filled the demand and
more. The late mountain man era could see a supply of
bark-tanned and oil-tanned leather for belts and such,
no? Just curious. The eastern buffalo herds of the
colonies/states were wiped out for many reasons, this
be just one.


- --- "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Gentelmen and Ladies,
> Belt's,/Harness leather? they are the same, belts
> were probably made from
> harness leather and the buckels could have been
> harness buckles!. Sashes can
> be made from other things wrather than wool, such as
> Hemp. What about rifle
> slings? there are rifles shown hanging over the
> shoulder, what are they made
> from, could be leather, brain tan, sashe type
> material, hemp or cotton
> weebing.
> What about silk scarves, made from? Silk worms in
> the rockies? NO, trade
> goods. The amount of trade goods and the locality of
> trading
> posts/forts/stockades made the avalibility of such
> items much more avalible
> then we think. One thing I keep thinking is that we
> only see the tip of the
> ice berg! when we look at trade lists and drawings,
> there was much more than
> that. there were also many players in this period of
> time.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
> >Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000, 1:00 AM
> >
>
> >Interesting topic!  Did American Trappers of white
> English/Celtic stock use
> >sashes and garters?  Probably not as a rule.    If
> we accept that woven
> >cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place
> of tanned belt leather
> >because they were cheaper and more easily attained,
> this does not mean that
> >this practice carried over into the Rocky
> Mountains.  First of all, sashes
> >were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the
> East, but this material
> >would be non-existent in the mountains.  Second, if
> the rendezvous lists do
> >not mention belt leather, where does it mention
> woven sashes or wool thread
> >to make same?  I submit that brain tanned leather
> was the most easily
> >attainable "fabric" in the Rockies.  It replaced
> the cloth garments that
> >rotted in the elements.  I think it's safe to
> assume this practice extended
> >to the replacement of cloth sashes.  The rendezvous
> lists support this.
> >Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse
> tack made it to the
> >Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult
> to make.  A leather belt
> >is the simplest thing to make.  All you need is a
> sharp knife, awl, needle
> >and thread...and, of course, a buckle.  And buckles
> were available from the
> >traders that came to rendezvous.  They didn't pack
> in what didn't sell.
> >Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went
> on leather belts.
> >Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked
> inside them.  And the
> >famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine
> Clement, clearly shows he
> >preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven
> sash to hold his
> >percussion pistol.
> >
> >Larry Huber


=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:22:21 MDT
From: "Terrance Luff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: hugh glass

ho mountian camp!
   i think i have some storys mixup. was it hugh glass than was caught by
some hostals crossing the yellowsone on the ice. by ft. remon at the age of
65 years. later some of his goods turned up,in what camp?
                                         Thanks for your input


hiverant metis
bilgs,mt.
ponyrider
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:59:29 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hugh glass

Maximilian " Old Glass, with two companions, had gone from Ft. Cass to
hunt beavers on the Yellowstone, and as they were crossing the river on
the ice further down, they were all three shot, scalped and plundered by
a war party of 30 Arikaras, who were concealed on the opposite bank"
from The Saga of Hugh Glass by John MyersMyers              , hardtack

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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:24:01 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: hugh glass

What happened to the part about blowing up a black powder keg and taking
some of them with him?


Walt
ORMC 1836-1837
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Randal J Bublitz
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 3:59 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hugh glass

Maximilian " Old Glass, with two companions, had gone from Ft. Cass to
hunt beavers on the Yellowstone, and as they were crossing the river on
the ice further down, they were all three shot, scalped and plundered by
a war party of 30 Arikaras, who were concealed on the opposite bank"
from The Saga of Hugh Glass by John MyersMyers              , hardtack

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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:37:31 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

Ho' Mtn.Camp,

Since I am new to the hills and am just gettin' the green wored off I got a
few questions to be askin'.

Fust, any one of you coons got any know how 'bout puttin' together yer own
authentic powder and primin' horns or any readin' on how to do such?

Second,  anybody got any good advice on cleanin' a mtn. rifle real good...or
better'n that...just what not to do when cleanin' it?

'Preciate all you fellers helpin' this greenhorn out!


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:32:58 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Dear "California Larry",
  We agree on everything except the access to the forts.  There are numerous
documented situations where both individual trappers and entire brigades
went to forts to resupply between rendezvous, because for one reason or
another they had become separated from their plunder.
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


Dear "Texas Larry",
    As has been mentioned in other posts, the finger woven sash was a
product of Metis and Indian women.  The various colors and patterns were
regional or family in design but became a "standard" look by the time Ashley
headed West.  At forts and posts, particularly the Hudson Bay variety, no
doubt sheep and wool was available.  And probably Indian and Metis women who
would undertake the making of a sash.  But the Free Trapper or "classic"
Mountain Man was not a post-sitter.  His supplies regularly came from the
rendezvous arrangement...or did I miss the difference between the Western
Americans and the Long Hunters of old?  The point I was making was that if
the rendezvous lists omit leather specifically cut for belt blanks but do
include various buckles of different sizes, there is a readily available
source (in the Mountains)of leather to attach that buckle to.  And if Miller
sketched even French hunters using belts with buckles but did not sketch the
more picturesque voyager sash, it seems the leather belt NOT the woven sash
was the preferred method of attaching stuff to your body.
    As far as the usability of the sash versus the belt, what Western
Mountain Man out there uses the sash over the belt?  Let's have a show of
hands.  I wear a sash...BUT I wear a tool belt with my knife, document pouch
and strike a light bag attached to it over the sash.  The sash is "yust for
pretty".
    And sashes made out of fiber other than the traditional wool?  What the
hell for?  I have a problem picturing a period Mountain Man sitting around
the old camp fire during the winter months (when he had time) finger weaving
out of hemp or yucca fiber a belt to replace the sturdy leather one he
already had.  The Mountain Man had availability to many goods at posts and
forts but when he was on his own, when he had to survive, the practical took
precedence over the pretty.  What I find most interesting about the Miller
documentation is the lack of ornamentation on their dress.  This was
Rendezvous, for Pete's sake!, and where is all the dress-up?  Where are all
the Rendezvous Bulls and Peacocks that are so readily seen at today's
re-enactments?  Where are the fancy "Wild West Show" performers that even
Remington drew?  They are strangely absent in the Miller paintings.  When
Bodmer or Catlin chose a subject, they chose an Indian for detail and fancy
dress.  The American trapper was just a working stiff and his gear reflected
it, even at Rendezvous.  I find beauty in the practical "sameness" of dress
that is the unifying feature of Millers white trappers.

Those are my thoughts,
The California Larry

- ----- Original Message -----
From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


> Excellent points Brother Huber, but would spun wool not have been
available
> at the various forts ?  They raised a variety livestock, but I can't
> remember if they raised sheep.  Would the trappers who ventured over into
> your part of the world have had access to spun wool products ?  I don't
mean
> to be going to extremes just to justify something, but it doesn't seem to
be
> much of a stretch.  What are your thoughts ?
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
>
>
> Interesting topic!  Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock
use
> sashes and garters?  Probably not as a rule.    If we accept that woven
> cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather
> because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean
that
> this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains.  First of all, sashes
> were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this
material
> would be non-existent in the mountains.  Second, if the rendezvous lists
do
> not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool
thread
> to make same?  I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily
> attainable "fabric" in the Rockies.  It replaced the cloth garments that
> rotted in the elements.  I think it's safe to assume this practice
extended
> to the replacement of cloth sashes.  The rendezvous lists support this.
> Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the
> Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make.  A leather
belt
> is the simplest thing to make.  All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle
> and thread...and, of course, a buckle.  And buckles were available from
the
> traders that came to rendezvous.  They didn't pack in what didn't sell.
> Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts.
> Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them.  And the
> famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he
> preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his
> percussion pistol.
>
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
>
>
> > Klahowya My Friends,
> >
> > Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast
my
> > two cents before the swine.
> > During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky
Mountain
> > Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued
> not
> > easily obtained commodity.  I believe research shows that woven straps
and
> > belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods.
This
> I
> > believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and
that
> > good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute
> was
> > available.  Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American
> > frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian.
> > In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On
line
> > here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather.  I did find
notations
> > for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate
> leather
> > or other), and some entries for assorted buckles.
> > It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade
> lists,
> > and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general
> > reference, but subject to artistic license.  Considering the known
> > information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps
over
> > leather during the EL/F&I period).  Adding in the known prominence of
> woven
> > straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian.  The general lack of
> > documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period.  The
> studies
> > that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in
> the
> > RMR period were of mixed blood.  And my opinion that shoes, horse tack,
> and
> > harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather,
> > especially when a viable woven alternative was available.  I therefore
> > assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the
> > American RMR period.  Sashes were probably less common, but still
present.
> > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide,
> not
> > finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from
> it.
> > And the list of arguments could go on....
> >
> > I leave this as fodder before the storm.....<well something like those
> > sayings anyway...VBG>  Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am
> always
> > open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but
> you
> > can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two.
> > Have at it boys...YMOS
> > PoorBoy
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
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>
>
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:56:54 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

Hey, Hiking on Through:

You might want to try the MLML list.  It deals in those subjects with a lot
of activity.  This list sometimes plumb goes flat line.  Like now.  The
forte of this list is the American Mountain Man.  Particularly the mounted
bunch that Rendezvous from 1825-1840 or there about.  Big doings at Fort
Union Trading Post seem to have drawn active members away from the list.
Try to get on both lists for more information assists on your basic
questions.


Walt
Orginal Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:38 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

Ho' Mtn.Camp,

Since I am new to the hills and am just gettin' the green wored off I got a
few questions to be askin'.

Fust, any one of you coons got any know how 'bout puttin' together yer own
authentic powder and primin' horns or any readin' on how to do such?

Second,  anybody got any good advice on cleanin' a mtn. rifle real good...or
better'n that...just what not to do when cleanin' it?

'Preciate all you fellers helpin' this greenhorn out!


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:20:44 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

> Fust, any one of you coons got any know how 'bout puttin' together yer own
> authentic powder and primin' horns or any readin' on how to do such?

Got some good reading for you. Book of Buckskinning has a nice article or
two on building authenticly constructed horns of all styles. Not sure which
volume 1 through 8 but a green horn needs all 8 anyway. <G>

>
> Second,  anybody got any good advice on cleanin' a mtn. rifle real
good...or
> better'n that...just what not to do when cleanin' it?

Cold or hot water pumped out the touch hole with the gun leaning against
something so it is upside down, butt down on the ground, trigger up. Frizzen
closed. Use tow (flax fiber) or cotton patch on a jag. Pour water into bore
adn push down with patch or tow on jag or worm. Pump water out the touch
hole until the wiper isn't getting lots of black on it any more and then dry
the bore and lightly oil or grease with whatever natural lube you like. I
kinda favor sweet oil (olive oil) and bear grease but any natural oil or
grease will work fine just not too heavy. Take the lock off and make sure
the area around the touch hole is clean, dry and lightly oiled with the rest
of the barrel. Same for the lock and etc. Replace, check flint and put her
in your bed roll for the morning. Don't like to use artificial lubes and
soaps because I believe they foul the bore and the powder and remove the
"seasoning" that may build up in a gun that uses naturally greased/oiled
patches. Good shooting pilgrim, I remain....l..

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:24:09 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

Greenhorn,    Hi,  I'd suggest checking out the set of books put out by
Muzzle Blast magazine....  Book of Buckskinning I - IX, or so now.  I
believe there is an article , or two, in there on making your own horns.
As to care for your smokepole; I believe that if you stick to
animal/vegetable greases for patching, etc... you will have good luck.
Stay away from petroleum products.  I use vegetable fat for lubing,
etc... and clean with hot water-with maybe a hint

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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:41:43 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

my program took off with an incoming message---cut me off short on last
message...---just a hint of soap for stubborn , dirty guns.  Looks like
Roger agrees with me...keep it natural, and you'll cure your barrel like
a skillet.  hardtack

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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:52:42 -0600
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ibid? References

- --============_-1242178531==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

It means I bid $170......................what else!
joe

Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
- --============_-1242178531==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param>It means I bid
$170......................what else!

joe
</fontfamily>

Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com

Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440

New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

- --============_-1242178531==_ma============--

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:04:26 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

The series of Books of Buckskinning is indeed a good place to begin.  =
However, they are produced by the publisher of Muzzleloader Magazine, =
not Muzzle Blasts Magazine.
Lanney Ratcliff

- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Randal J Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the =
longarm


> Greenhorn,    Hi,  I'd suggest checking out the set of books put out =
by
> Muzzle Blast magazine....  Book of Buckskinning I - IX, or so now.  I
> believe there is an article , or two, in there on making your own =
horns.=20
> As to care for your smokepole; I believe that if you stick to
> animal/vegetable greases for patching, etc... you will have good luck. =

> Stay away from petroleum products.  I use vegetable fat for lubing,
> etc... and clean with hot water-with maybe a hint=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:14:28 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes

Hi again, folks! I should warn you guys that my old computer died, so I'm
not always going to be able to respond as promptly as I'd like.

This discussion about sashes is interesting. First, I've got an article
about sashes on my web site; it has some historical information, but is
mostly a "how-to" on fingerweaving. It's at
www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/sash.html.

Sashes show up regularly on lists of trade goods from my period (Canada,
1774-1821). They are usually described as "worsted belts"--has anyone seen
that on a list of trade goods from the Mountain Man era? They can also be
described as "worsted sashes" or "wool ceintures"--ceinture is French for
belt. I haven't found any references to Native or Metis women making them
out here in the Northwest *in my period*, but that might have happened
later on, I don't know. The name "Assumption/Assomption sash" comes from
the Assomption area, near Montreal, where most of the sashes were made at
first (c. 1799, when they begin showing up in my trade good lists). They
were  sometimes called "Achigan sashes" because they were also made in
Achigan, near Montreal.
As for garters, I'm sure their main use was to hold up leggins; there are
yards and yards of "gartering" and "ferreting" (a kind of gartering) on
trade goods lists. I haven't, however, yet found a reference to anyone
actually wearing garters. I'm sure it's just a matter of time, though.

Somebody said that they felt sashes were "just for show". Try this: fold
your sash in half lengthwise, then wrap it around you with the folded part
on the bottom. You now have a shallow pocket that runs all around your
waist, perfect for holding your tinder box, car keys, etc.

BTW, I've never found documentation for voyageurs wearing loom-woven
sashes; they seem to have been introduced from England c. 1890, in a much
different form than the inkle loom sashes some folks sell.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:24:34 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes

Angela,
    When I toured Fort William a few years back, the docents said that most
of the "Indians" that occupied the area around the fort were Metis by 1820.
I have also heard that the voyagers that plied the waters and made the
Assumption sashes were by in large Metis as well.  I was under the
impression that the finger weaving of sashes was mostly a female occupation.
Any insight into this?
    I don't think there is any argument about the use of sashes among the
Canadian trade.  I think the discussion is the use of them south of the
border.  I'd like to see trade lists for them in the kinds of numbers you've
suggested before feeling comfortable about their common usage by the common
American trapper.  Is there any record of them at all?  What about the stock
of supplies at forts or posts?  Do they show up there as has been suggested?

Larry Huber

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes


> Hi again, folks! I should warn you guys that my old computer died, so I'm
> not always going to be able to respond as promptly as I'd like.
>
> This discussion about sashes is interesting. First, I've got an article
> about sashes on my web site; it has some historical information, but is
> mostly a "how-to" on fingerweaving. It's at
> www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/sash.html.
>
> Sashes show up regularly on lists of trade goods from my period (Canada,
> 1774-1821). They are usually described as "worsted belts"--has anyone seen
> that on a list of trade goods from the Mountain Man era? They can also be
> described as "worsted sashes" or "wool ceintures"--ceinture is French for
> belt. I haven't found any references to Native or Metis women making them
> out here in the Northwest *in my period*, but that might have happened
> later on, I don't know. The name "Assumption/Assomption sash" comes from
> the Assomption area, near Montreal, where most of the sashes were made at
> first (c. 1799, when they begin showing up in my trade good lists). They
> were  sometimes called "Achigan sashes" because they were also made in
> Achigan, near Montreal.
> As for garters, I'm sure their main use was to hold up leggins; there are
> yards and yards of "gartering" and "ferreting" (a kind of gartering) on
> trade goods lists. I haven't, however, yet found a reference to anyone
> actually wearing garters. I'm sure it's just a matter of time, though.
>
> Somebody said that they felt sashes were "just for show". Try this: fold
> your sash in half lengthwise, then wrap it around you with the folded part
> on the bottom. You now have a shallow pocket that runs all around your
> waist, perfect for holding your tinder box, car keys, etc.
>
> BTW, I've never found documentation for voyageurs wearing loom-woven
> sashes; they seem to have been introduced from England c. 1890, in a much
> different form than the inkle loom sashes some folks sell.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:17:10 -0500
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes

It's my view the the sashes were worn by the voyageurs, the waist sash
worn much like a weight lifting belt to help prevent hernias, the
legging sashes were to keep the knees from buckling under 2 or 3 90
pound packs carried on portages.

I always heard the three top killers of voyageurs was drowning, hernias
and emphasema (sp).

Jim

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:19:54 -0500
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: GUN REFRESHER COURSE

I figured some out there would appreciate these.



a.. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

b.. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

c.. Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface.

d.. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

e.. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

f.. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

g.. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

h.. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.

i.. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.

j.. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

k.. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

l.. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.

m.. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

n.. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

o.. Know guns, know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety.

p.. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

q.. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer.

r.. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

s.. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs safer.

t.. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson.

u.. Only a government that is afraid of it's citizens try to control
them.

v.. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

 w.. Enforce the "gun control laws" in place, don't make more.

x.. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.

y.. The American Revolution would never have happened with Gun Control.

z. "...a government by the people, for the people..."

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:25:57 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes

Thanks Angela !  Great info 1
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes


Hi again, folks! I should warn you guys that my old computer died, so I'm
not always going to be able to respond as promptly as I'd like.

This discussion about sashes is interesting. First, I've got an article
about sashes on my web site; it has some historical information, but is
mostly a "how-to" on fingerweaving. It's at
www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/sash.html.

Sashes show up regularly on lists of trade goods from my period (Canada,
1774-1821). They are usually described as "worsted belts"--has anyone seen
that on a list of trade goods from the Mountain Man era? They can also be
described as "worsted sashes" or "wool ceintures"--ceinture is French for
belt. I haven't found any references to Native or Metis women making them
out here in the Northwest *in my period*, but that might have happened
later on, I don't know. The name "Assumption/Assomption sash" comes from
the Assomption area, near Montreal, where most of the sashes were made at
first (c. 1799, when they begin showing up in my trade good lists). They
were  sometimes called "Achigan sashes" because they were also made in
Achigan, near Montreal.
As for garters, I'm sure their main use was to hold up leggins; there are
yards and yards of "gartering" and "ferreting" (a kind of gartering) on
trade goods lists. I haven't, however, yet found a reference to anyone
actually wearing garters. I'm sure it's just a matter of time, though.

Somebody said that they felt sashes were "just for show". Try this: fold
your sash in half lengthwise, then wrap it around you with the folded part
on the bottom. You now have a shallow pocket that runs all around your
waist, perfect for holding your tinder box, car keys, etc.

BTW, I've never found documentation for voyageurs wearing loom-woven
sashes; they seem to have been introduced from England c. 1890, in a much
different form than the inkle loom sashes some folks sell.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:39:21 -0500
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle made of money

A model 92 made in 1884 would be very rare. Mostly because model 92s came
out in 1892....

northwoods


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: September 24, 2000 1:35 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: rifle made of money


> I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this anyway.
I
> recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester
> model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and replied
> with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that
fellow
> is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know
> something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up
> being a happy fellow yourself.
>
> Larry J Sherman
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:55:11 -0500
From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the longarm

Book 2 has a length article on making horns, and is worth a read.   The =
whole series is worth looking into.   You can get the whole series from =
Scurlock publishing, I believe their website is www.muzzmag.com.

Todd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ratcliff
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 8:04 AM
> To: History List
> Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning the
> longarm
>=20
>=20
> The series of Books of Buckskinning is indeed a good place to=20
> begin.  However, they are produced by the publisher of=20
> Muzzleloader Magazine, not Muzzle Blasts Magazine.
> Lanney Ratcliff
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "Randal J Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder horns, priming horns & cleaning=20
> the longarm
>=20
>=20
> > Greenhorn,    Hi,  I'd suggest checking out the set of books put out =
by
> > Muzzle Blast magazine....  Book of Buckskinning I - IX, or so now.  =
I
> > believe there is an article , or two, in there on making your=20
> own horns.=20
> > As to care for your smokepole; I believe that if you stick to
> > animal/vegetable greases for patching, etc... you will have good =
luck.=20
> > Stay away from petroleum products.  I use vegetable fat for lubing,
> > etc... and clean with hot water-with maybe a hint=20
> >=20
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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