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hist_text-digest      Sunday, September 24 2000      Volume 01 : Number 632



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: rifle made of money
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Fw: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
-áááááá MtMan-List: ibid? References
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ibid? References
-áááááá Fw: MtMan-List: ibid? References
-áááááá MtMan-List: UNBRIDLED v/s BRIDLED FIZZENS
-áááááá MtMan-List: Frizzens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 06:35:08 GMT
From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rifle made of money

I know this is a black powder only page, but I have to write this anyway. I
recieved an e-mail from a guy who wanted to know how much his winchester
model 92, that was made in 1884 was worth. I did the research and replied
with the answear $600-$7000. These are the prices I found, I bet that fellow
is very happy to own that gun. The moral of the story, if you don't know
something about the gun you own ask somebody who does, you might end up
being a happy fellow yourself.

Larry J Sherman
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:00:08 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Interesting topic!  Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use
sashes and garters?  Probably not as a rule.    If we accept that woven
cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather
because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that
this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains.  First of all, sashes
were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material
would be non-existent in the mountains.  Second, if the rendezvous lists do
not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread
to make same?  I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily
attainable "fabric" in the Rockies.  It replaced the cloth garments that
rotted in the elements.  I think it's safe to assume this practice extended
to the replacement of cloth sashes.  The rendezvous lists support this.
Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the
Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make.  A leather belt
is the simplest thing to make.  All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle
and thread...and, of course, a buckle.  And buckles were available from the
traders that came to rendezvous.  They didn't pack in what didn't sell.
Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts.
Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them.  And the
famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he
preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his
percussion pistol.

Larry Huber

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


> Klahowya My Friends,
>
> Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my
> two cents before the swine.
> During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain
> Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued
not
> easily obtained commodity.  I believe research shows that woven straps and
> belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods.  This
I
> believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that
> good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute
was
> available.  Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American
> frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian.
> In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line
> here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather.  I did find notations
> for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate
leather
> or other), and some entries for assorted buckles.
> It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade
lists,
> and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general
> reference, but subject to artistic license.  Considering the known
> information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over
> leather during the EL/F&I period).  Adding in the known prominence of
woven
> straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian.  The general lack of
> documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period.  The
studies
> that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in
the
> RMR period were of mixed blood.  And my opinion that shoes, horse tack,
and
> harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather,
> especially when a viable woven alternative was available.  I therefore
> assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the
> American RMR period.  Sashes were probably less common, but still present.
> One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide,
not
> finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from
it.
> And the list of arguments could go on....
>
> I leave this as fodder before the storm.....<well something like those
> sayings anyway...VBG>  Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am
always
> open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but
you
> can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two.
> Have at it boys...YMOS
> PoorBoy
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:35:40 +1200
From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

The early settlers,farmers ,bushmen, hunters, etc of both Australia and New
Zealand ,used string or leather ties around their trouser legs , just above
the Knee, these were to stop the voluminous straight trouser legs of the
time from flopping around and getting in the way, the ties were known as
Bowyangs,don't ask me why, not really Mtn Man stuff but I thought you might
be interested.
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 07:02:47 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

As to sashes, I have the Granddaddy of 'em... It is over 8" wide and near
20' long!.. CJ Wilde made it .
 It is a historical copy from a museum in Canada.  It takes either two
people to wrap it  (one holding the end while you wrap in it) or you tie it
off to a sapling and wrap yourself. When wrapped properly it gives FANTASTIC
back support while hauling loads, reduces back fatigue when canoeing any
distance, is warm in the Winter & makes a great pillow!<G>  I get some grief
from Brothers when I put it on sometimes.. Most want to "spin" me like a
top, but the bothering dies off when folks see how well this item works when
used as it was meant to be..
D



"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:37:22 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Dennis
That must be a great sash.  Considering its size and maker, I bet you =
could have bought a mini-van for the price it must have set you back.
YF&B
Lanney
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


> As to sashes, I have the Granddaddy of 'em... It is over 8" wide and =
near
> 20' long!.. CJ Wilde made it .
>  It is a historical copy from a museum in Canada.  It takes either two
> people to wrap it  (one holding the end while you wrap in it) or you =
tie it
> off to a sapling and wrap yourself. When wrapped properly it gives =
FANTASTIC
> back support while hauling loads, reduces back fatigue when canoeing =
any
> distance, is warm in the Winter & makes a great pillow!<G>  I get some =
grief
> from Brothers when I put it on sometimes.. Most want to "spin" me like =
a
> top, but the bothering dies off when folks see how well this item =
works when
> used as it was meant to be..
> D
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>     http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:05:30 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Dennis,
  He just won't give it up, will he ?
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: History List <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:37 AM
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


Dennis
That must be a great sash.  Considering its size and maker, I bet you could
have bought a mini-van for the price it must have set you back.
YF&B
Lanney
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


> As to sashes, I have the Granddaddy of 'em... It is over 8" wide and near
> 20' long!.. CJ Wilde made it .
>  It is a historical copy from a museum in Canada.  It takes either two
> people to wrap it  (one holding the end while you wrap in it) or you tie
it
> off to a sapling and wrap yourself. When wrapped properly it gives
FANTASTIC
> back support while hauling loads, reduces back fatigue when canoeing any
> distance, is warm in the Winter & makes a great pillow!<G>  I get some
grief
> from Brothers when I put it on sometimes.. Most want to "spin" me like a
> top, but the bothering dies off when folks see how well this item works
when
> used as it was meant to be..
> D
>
>
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>     http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:16:33 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Excellent points Brother Huber, but would spun wool not have been available
at the various forts ?  They raised a variety livestock, but I can't
remember if they raised sheep.  Would the trappers who ventured over into
your part of the world have had access to spun wool products ?  I don't mean
to be going to extremes just to justify something, but it doesn't seem to be
much of a stretch.  What are your thoughts ?
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


Interesting topic!  Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use
sashes and garters?  Probably not as a rule.    If we accept that woven
cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather
because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that
this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains.  First of all, sashes
were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material
would be non-existent in the mountains.  Second, if the rendezvous lists do
not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread
to make same?  I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily
attainable "fabric" in the Rockies.  It replaced the cloth garments that
rotted in the elements.  I think it's safe to assume this practice extended
to the replacement of cloth sashes.  The rendezvous lists support this.
Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the
Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make.  A leather belt
is the simplest thing to make.  All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle
and thread...and, of course, a buckle.  And buckles were available from the
traders that came to rendezvous.  They didn't pack in what didn't sell.
Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts.
Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them.  And the
famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he
preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his
percussion pistol.

Larry Huber

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


> Klahowya My Friends,
>
> Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my
> two cents before the swine.
> During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain
> Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued
not
> easily obtained commodity.  I believe research shows that woven straps and
> belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods.  This
I
> believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that
> good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute
was
> available.  Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American
> frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian.
> In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line
> here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather.  I did find notations
> for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate
leather
> or other), and some entries for assorted buckles.
> It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade
lists,
> and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general
> reference, but subject to artistic license.  Considering the known
> information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over
> leather during the EL/F&I period).  Adding in the known prominence of
woven
> straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian.  The general lack of
> documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period.  The
studies
> that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in
the
> RMR period were of mixed blood.  And my opinion that shoes, horse tack,
and
> harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather,
> especially when a viable woven alternative was available.  I therefore
> assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the
> American RMR period.  Sashes were probably less common, but still present.
> One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide,
not
> finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from
it.
> And the list of arguments could go on....
>
> I leave this as fodder before the storm.....<well something like those
> sayings anyway...VBG>  Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am
always
> open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but
you
> can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two.
> Have at it boys...YMOS
> PoorBoy
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:01:31 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Damn near, Lanney.. Damned near...<G>
D

Next time, it'll have a cupholder..

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:02:29 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Larry,
You KNOW how he can be...<G>
D



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:53:54 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short)

Gentelmen and Ladies,
Belt's,/Harness leather? they are the same, belts were probably made from
harness leather and the buckels could have been harness buckles!. Sashes can
be made from other things wrather than wool, such as Hemp. What about rifle
slings? there are rifles shown hanging over the shoulder, what are they made
from, could be leather, brain tan, sashe type material, hemp or cotton
weebing.
What about silk scarves, made from? Silk worms in the rockies? NO, trade
goods. The amount of trade goods and the locality of trading
posts/forts/stockades made the avalibility of such items much more avalible
then we think. One thing I keep thinking is that we only see the tip of the
ice berg! when we look at trade lists and drawings, there was much more than
that. there were also many players in this period of time.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
>Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000, 1:00 AM
>

>Interesting topic!  Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock use
>sashes and garters?  Probably not as a rule.    If we accept that woven
>cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather
>because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean that
>this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains.  First of all, sashes
>were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this material
>would be non-existent in the mountains.  Second, if the rendezvous lists do
>not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool thread
>to make same?  I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily
>attainable "fabric" in the Rockies.  It replaced the cloth garments that
>rotted in the elements.  I think it's safe to assume this practice extended
>to the replacement of cloth sashes.  The rendezvous lists support this.
>Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the
>Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make.  A leather belt
>is the simplest thing to make.  All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle
>and thread...and, of course, a buckle.  And buckles were available from the
>traders that came to rendezvous.  They didn't pack in what didn't sell.
>Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts.
>Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them.  And the
>famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he
>preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his
>percussion pistol.
>
>Larry Huber
>

>>
>>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:30:06 -0700
From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Klahowya My Friends,

I must say excellent discussion.  Let me also preface my comments by
explaining that I am in the middle of moving my family to a new home.  I
only get to check my magic box once a day and I apologize if my posts seem a
bit long, but I am spending all day thinking on these discussions and have
to tie all my thoughts into each post.

Again, excellent discussion, and everyone that has commented has raised
valid issues.  Even Lanney's comments on the cost of a good hand woven
sash...<VBG>
Now, to address a few of the issues discussed.  Ole, Larry Pendleton, The
good Capt., and Larry Huber all touched on the fact that leather belts
probably went West with the trappers and that belts don't wear out like most
other leather goods.  I agree.  But, I must still ask how common were the
belts in the East.  Also I agree that a man who was used to wearing a
leather belt rather than a sash, would have looked to replace his belt.  And
there is a list of replacement materials available ie: braintan, raw hide,
worn saddle/stirrup leather, and even personal trades with the company men
with the trade caravans who would be returning East.  I would however assert
that brain tan by itself would not hold up long under heavy use.  By this I
mean the weight of knives, pistols, hawks, and bags being thrust within it.
Raw hide, in order to remain flexible would work better as a woven product.
And saddle leather was too valued to be used before it was totally worn out.
Larry Huber, questioned the availability of wool in the mountains to make
sashes, and sashes and wool thread missing from trade lists.  To this I can
only add that wool material, as well as other types was shipped,  that even
in the East not all belts/straps/sashes were wool.  many were hemp, linen,
and other forms of cordage.
I just realized I am getting long winded again...  What I am trying to
suggest here is that,  belts and woven sashes/straps were probably both
present in the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period.  Leg ties were in common
use throughout the world, even in Australia and New Zealand..thanks
Cutfinger, and would have continued in the RM West.  I do not think that the
many brightly colored versions would be used in everyday work situations.
Except in the cases of identity, like the Metis, or when it was all that was
available.  But again at rendezvous, if a fellow had a set of Sunday go to
meetin duds, he would wear them.  Like Capt. lahti's quilled leg ties.  As
to colors I once saw a museum display of over 500 trade blankets throughout
time to present.  Some of the well cared for originals were quite bright in
there color schemes.  Although I do not suggest day glo coloring is
appropriate,  I would suggest that the colors we see in originals today have
faded drastically.  The collector of the trade blanket display noted the
desirability of the bright colors that the Indians could not produce in
nature, but could be created at the woolen mills.  This then circles back to
the argument of should a historical re-enactor striving for accuracy use
accouterments and tools that represent newly obtained goods, possibly only a
few years old, or the worn antique looking stuff we see in museums.  There
is no doubt that the antique looking stuff is easier on our eyes today
because it more closely approximates the original artifacts we see in
museums, but is it really a correct representation of that day and time?
YMOS
PoorBoy



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:35:51 -0700
From: "Poorboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (short)

Klahowya Ole,

<One thing I keep thinking is that we only see the tip of the
ice berg! when we look at trade lists and drawings, there was much more than
that. there were also many players in this period of time.>

Well said,  for every trade list we have viewed today there are probably a
dozen that are lost to us forever.  Also every fellow that outfitted himself
and went to the Rockies, we will never know what he took with him
originally, before he had to resupply later.  Again, Well said.

YMOS
PoorBoy



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:26:13 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Dennis, Scott Smith , of Florida, wears one of those extra wide, extra
long sash.  I helped him put it on once by holding one end tightly while
he wrapped himself up with it.  It was interesting to see, and yes it
supported his back very well.  Also, I did have the urge to give a sharp
yank, and spin him like a top.<g>  hardtack

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:03:10 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

In a message dated 9/24/00 8:22:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< accouterments and tools that represent newly obtained goods, possibly only
a
 few years old, or the worn antique looking stuff we see in museums >

Am I off base to believe that the reason the Trappers, et al went to
Rendezvous was to replenish supplies with NEW GOODS?  Why in the world would
they trade hard-earned plews for older, aged, or used product, unless it was
something very special (i.e. a gun or knife), or nothing else was available?

IIRC, this list has presented many ref's for new clothing and equipage being
obtained, shown-off, gambled away, etc as it was strutted 'round the
Rendezvous.

Almost all the things we use to reenact the period, from barrels to shirts to
rifles could have been obtained new or reasonably new (transportation worn)
at Rendezvous, no?  And wouldn't that mean that the use of new items in our
reenacting would be correct as well?     Barney


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:11:26 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Hardtack
Scott is the one that convinced me that I would like it.. He was right.
D




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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:43:39 -0500
From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: ibid? References

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Somebody please help me out. This may seem like a dumb question to y'all =
but it has been driving me crazy. I have noticed in several historical =
books I have read, that they list referances like "ibid 170". What on =
earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand for? Are the numbers =
page numbers? Thanks, in advance.

YMOS
Watchum Possum

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Somebody please help me =
out. This may=20
seem like a dumb question to y'all but it has been driving me crazy. I =
have=20
noticed in several historical books I have read, that they list =
referances like=20
"ibid 170". What on earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand =
for? Are=20
the numbers page numbers? Thanks, in advance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Watchum=20
Possum</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:12:12 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ibid? References

IBID is like ditto, means refer to previous reference

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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:20:06 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: ibid? References

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ibid is the abreviation of ibidem--latin for "from where" and refers to =
a previously cited source, sometimes followed by a page reference.
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Douglas Hepner=20
To: [e-mail]=20
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: ibid? References


Somebody please help me out. This may seem like a dumb question to y'all =
but it has been driving me crazy. I have noticed in several historical =
books I have read, that they list referances like "ibid 170". What on =
earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand for? Are the numbers =
page numbers? Thanks, in advance.

YMOS
Watchum Possum

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>ibid is the abreviation of ibidem--latin for "from where" and =
refers to a=20
previously cited source, sometimes followed by a page reference.</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Douglas=20
Hepner</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:43 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: ibid? References</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Somebody please help me =
out. This may=20
seem like a dumb question to y'all but it has been driving me crazy. I =
have=20
noticed in several historical books I have read, that they list =
referances like=20
"ibid 170". What on earth is this refence? What does the "ibid" stand =
for? Are=20
the numbers page numbers? Thanks, in advance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Watchum=20
Possum</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:25:59 -0700
From: "Bruce S. de Lis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: UNBRIDLED v/s BRIDLED FIZZENS

What is the difference as I see reference to:

UNBRIDLED v/s BRIDLED FIZZENS


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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:42:47 -0500
From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Frizzens

Bruce,

An unbridled frizzen has only a screw to hold the frizzen to the lockplate,
while a bridled frizzen has an "ear" projecting from the front of the pan
that the frizzen screw goes through before going through the frizzen itself
and threading into the lockplate.

Locks with unbridled frizzens are usually earlier, but can also just be a
cheaper made lock. MAny Northwest Trade Guns of all periods had unbridled
frizzens.

Randy Hedden


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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:08:56 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)

Dear "Texas Larry",
    As has been mentioned in other posts, the finger woven sash was a
product of Metis and Indian women.  The various colors and patterns were
regional or family in design but became a "standard" look by the time Ashley
headed West.  At forts and posts, particularly the Hudson Bay variety, no
doubt sheep and wool was available.  And probably Indian and Metis women who
would undertake the making of a sash.  But the Free Trapper or "classic"
Mountain Man was not a post-sitter.  His supplies regularly came from the
rendezvous arrangement...or did I miss the difference between the Western
Americans and the Long Hunters of old?  The point I was making was that if
the rendezvous lists omit leather specifically cut for belt blanks but do
include various buckles of different sizes, there is a readily available
source (in the Mountains)of leather to attach that buckle to.  And if Miller
sketched even French hunters using belts with buckles but did not sketch the
more picturesque voyager sash, it seems the leather belt NOT the woven sash
was the preferred method of attaching stuff to your body.
    As far as the usability of the sash versus the belt, what Western
Mountain Man out there uses the sash over the belt?  Let's have a show of
hands.  I wear a sash...BUT I wear a tool belt with my knife, document pouch
and strike a light bag attached to it over the sash.  The sash is "yust for
pretty".
    And sashes made out of fiber other than the traditional wool?  What the
hell for?  I have a problem picturing a period Mountain Man sitting around
the old camp fire during the winter months (when he had time) finger weaving
out of hemp or yucca fiber a belt to replace the sturdy leather one he
already had.  The Mountain Man had availability to many goods at posts and
forts but when he was on his own, when he had to survive, the practical took
precedence over the pretty.  What I find most interesting about the Miller
documentation is the lack of ornamentation on their dress.  This was
Rendezvous, for Pete's sake!, and where is all the dress-up?  Where are all
the Rendezvous Bulls and Peacocks that are so readily seen at today's
re-enactments?  Where are the fancy "Wild West Show" performers that even
Remington drew?  They are strangely absent in the Miller paintings.  When
Bodmer or Catlin chose a subject, they chose an Indian for detail and fancy
dress.  The American trapper was just a working stiff and his gear reflected
it, even at Rendezvous.  I find beauty in the practical "sameness" of dress
that is the unifying feature of Millers white trappers.

Those are my thoughts,
The California Larry

- ----- Original Message -----
From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)


> Excellent points Brother Huber, but would spun wool not have been
available
> at the various forts ?  They raised a variety livestock, but I can't
> remember if they raised sheep.  Would the trappers who ventured over into
> your part of the world have had access to spun wool products ?  I don't
mean
> to be going to extremes just to justify something, but it doesn't seem to
be
> much of a stretch.  What are your thoughts ?
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Huber <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
>
>
> Interesting topic!  Did American Trappers of white English/Celtic stock
use
> sashes and garters?  Probably not as a rule.    If we accept that woven
> cloth sashes/garters were used in the East in place of tanned belt leather
> because they were cheaper and more easily attained, this does not mean
that
> this practice carried over into the Rocky Mountains.  First of all, sashes
> were made from readily attainable wool fiber in the East, but this
material
> would be non-existent in the mountains.  Second, if the rendezvous lists
do
> not mention belt leather, where does it mention woven sashes or wool
thread
> to make same?  I submit that brain tanned leather was the most easily
> attainable "fabric" in the Rockies.  It replaced the cloth garments that
> rotted in the elements.  I think it's safe to assume this practice
extended
> to the replacement of cloth sashes.  The rendezvous lists support this.
> Manufactured leather products like shoes and horse tack made it to the
> Rockies because these items were somewhat difficult to make.  A leather
belt
> is the simplest thing to make.  All you need is a sharp knife, awl, needle
> and thread...and, of course, a buckle.  And buckles were available from
the
> traders that came to rendezvous.  They didn't pack in what didn't sell.
> Aside from horse tack, I'll bet those buckles went on leather belts.
> Miller's paintings show "belts" with knives tucked inside them.  And the
> famous sketch of Stuart's French hunter, Antoine Clement, clearly shows he
> preferred a leather belt with buckle over a woven sash to hold his
> percussion pistol.
>
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long)
>
>
> > Klahowya My Friends,
> >
> > Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast
my
> > two cents before the swine.
> > During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky
Mountain
> > Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued
> not
> > easily obtained commodity.  I believe research shows that woven straps
and
> > belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods.
This
> I
> > believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and
that
> > good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute
> was
> > available.  Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American
> > frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian.
> > In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On
line
> > here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather.  I did find
notations
> > for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate
> leather
> > or other), and some entries for assorted buckles.
> > It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade
> lists,
> > and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general
> > reference, but subject to artistic license.  Considering the known
> > information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps
over
> > leather during the EL/F&I period).  Adding in the known prominence of
> woven
> > straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian.  The general lack of
> > documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period.  The
> studies
> > that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in
> the
> > RMR period were of mixed blood.  And my opinion that shoes, horse tack,
> and
> > harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather,
> > especially when a viable woven alternative was available.  I therefore
> > assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the
> > American RMR period.  Sashes were probably less common, but still
present.
> > One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide,
> not
> > finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from
> it.
> > And the list of arguments could go on....
> >
> > I leave this as fodder before the storm.....<well something like those
> > sayings anyway...VBG>  Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am
> always
> > open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but
> you
> > can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two.
> > Have at it boys...YMOS
> > PoorBoy
> >
> >
> >
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