Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
Lanney,
I agree. Today, we boast about a week long horse ride or a canoe trip
that lasts 10 days, but it would be hard to match 2 1/2 or 3 months riding
side saddle, living in leaky tents and having diarrhia from buffalo country
clear to Oregon!
mike.
Ratcliff wrote:
> Mike
> I can concur with your position, in that most of the missionary women most likely took little or no real part of the rendezvous. The little reading I have done on the subject seems to indicate that Narcissa Whitman was very friendly and outgoing. Little is said about the others, except that some were scandalized by what they saw. We can't withhold our admiration of their grit. Even in the context of a "closed" group heading west for the purpose of supporting their husbands' job of saving souls, these women had enough bark on to make journey that few enough modern men would dare make.
> YMOS
> Lanney
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
>
> > Lanney,
> > I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We
> > Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one
> > other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women.
> > Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their
> > first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they
> > were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left)
> > for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries
> > didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go
> > further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But,
> > I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even
> > if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men
> > had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going
> > west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice
> > to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked
> > up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had
> > helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived.
> > I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting
> > place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there.
> > This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian
> > today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were
> > a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as
> > the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you,
> > these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from
> > injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain
> > in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand
> > guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing
> > every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west.
> > Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries
> > in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and
> > didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my
> > opinion.
> > mike.
> >
> > Ratcliff wrote:
> >
> > > Mike
> > > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous:
> > > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark
> > > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn
> > > Mrs Alvin T. Smith
> > > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith
> > > Mrs Asahel Munger
> > > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray
> > > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker)
> > > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells)
> > > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith)
> > > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman)
> > > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding)
> > > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments.
> > > YMOS
> > > Lanney Ratcliff
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
> > > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM
> > > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't)
> > >
> > > > Sorry guys,
> > > > I wrote one line which I should clarify,
> > > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the
> > > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that
> > > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two).
> > > > I tend to treat this form of communication different
> > > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles,
> > > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll
> > > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like
> > > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys
> > > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it.
> > > > mike.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:46:20 -0600
From: rhamilton@pagedigital.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Sashes
I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the
waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore,
but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any
information they can share on this subject?
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:34:37 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <rhamilton@pagedigital.com>
To: <hist_text@xmission.com>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:46 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Sashes
> I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the
> waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore,
> but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any
> information they can share on this subject?
I will go so far as to say that this was more a fashion of the French
Voyagure than the Mountain Man. As much as we can depend on field sketches
of artists like Miller, he does not show this fashion amongst Mountain Men.
Some one out there know different?
I believe that the tendency to see such worn and done at modern Rendezvous
is part modern fashion (wanting to look like what some people think a
mountain man looked like) and partly to hold up the lower legs of leather
pants made form commercial leather which stretches much more than brain tan
(which is more likely what was being used originally). Respectfully,
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:22:13 EDT
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
> I will go so far as to say that this was more a fashion of the French
> Voyagure than the Mountain Man.
> Some one out there know different?
Capt,
We discussed this at some length before you joined the list. Depend on how
you classify "Mountain Man." By and large, the attendees of the Rendezvous
were French and Indian, not white men. They too, were displaced from back
East and worked the western fur trade. In addition, many Metis made their
way down from Canada and co-existed in the same vicinities, especially during
their buffalo hunts.
A google.com search on "assumption sash" would probably yield the information
sought. Books on finger weaving will yield further info. Assumption sashes
later replaced by machine woven English sashes as trade goods.
>As much as we can depend on field sketches
> of artists like Miller, he does not show this fashion amongst Mountain Men.
More correctly, he doesn't show it amongst "white" Mountain Men, whom he
glorified through his paintings.
Dave Kanger
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:43:40 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
> More correctly, he doesn't show it amongst "white" Mountain Men, whom he
> glorified through his paintings.
Dave,
Point well taken. Since most invision themselves as the "classic" mountain
man, I presumed the "glorified" mountain man of millers paintings not the
vast majority of participants in that era who were not American but as you
say. I remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:07:28 -0700
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: sashes
since somebody brought it up, I am in possession of a old hard wool yarn,
loom woven sash of what appears to be Navajo [or some southwestern tribe] in
origin can anybody tell me how far back loom woven sashes go. or in other
words would it be period correct to wear if someone's persona was new
Mexican influenced?
thanks; Tom
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:27:30 -0600
From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
At 05:46 PM 09/22/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the
>waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore,
>but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any
>information they can share on this subject?
None of the journals of Ferris, Russell, Clymer make any mention of sashes.
Nor do any other compilations by Berry, Utley and others.
My guess is American trappers didn't use them, as they are neither described
or painted by folks that were there.
Allen in Fort Hall country
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Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 02:45:32 EDT
From: Tomactor@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes
In a message dated 9/22/00 8:25:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
allenhall@srv.net writes:
> I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the
> >waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore,
> >but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any
> >information they can share on this subject?
I believe these were worn mainly by the French Canadien voyageurs. They a
quite common with our re-enactors at Fort Vancouver. I have heard that the
garters helped to strengthen the legs, and the voyagers certainly needed
