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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:04:33 -0400
From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass
Noticed that the "Inventory of sundries delivered to the Northwest Company,
Astoria, Columbia River, October, 1813", which contains a tremendous
quantity and variety of merchandise to supply this outpost, lists only 1
"compass" and 2 "mariner's compasses".
Wind1838@aol.com wrote:
> What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps
> percentage is not the right word . . . could one say
>
> most
> some
> few
>
> Appreciate it.
>
> Laura Glise
>
> ----------------------
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:17:22 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay
On Sun, 10 September 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote:
>
> I have a knife marked 1825. I bought it my first AMM National Rdvs
> (Henry's Fork). I put the 1825 date on it, as this was the site of the
> first Randavoos. This is my memento from the rdvs. My point is, just
> because it has numerals on it, doesn't mean they were put there at that
> point in time. Respectfully, hardtack
>
> ----------------------
Sorry to keep using Mr. Conner's name, he is not back in town yet or I would think we would have heard from him by now. Anyway he has a small collection (15-20) of early fur trade knives, most given to him as birthday gifts from Charles E. hanson, Jr. and like Dennis mentioned the blades show much use as well as the handles, granted Hanson had some that where in mint condition at the museum, but in that condition they bring big money and have documentation on them. Most of the knives mentioned don't have dates, dating is done by pin arrangement in handle and style of writing, markings, etc.on knife blade.
Another brother of the AMM, Ken "Quill" Smith had a great collection of Green River and Wilson knives that he and his brother had been collecting for 25 plus years, don't know if he is still on this list, answer up "Quill".
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:27:17 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass
On Sun, 10 September 2000, "Roger Lahti" wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Wind1838@aol.com>
> > What percentage of trappers do you think carried a compass? Perhaps
> > percentage is not the right word . . . could one say most some few
>
> Ms. Laura Jean,
>
> I would venture to suggest that it was very few if any. I have no evidence
> one way or the other. As a practical matter, I don't see the need nor the
> mention of them being used by other than serious exploratory or survey
> Parties/Expeditioins. Same with many other fancy accutraments available to
> the civilized and cultured gentelman of the era.
> My opinion of course. I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
_________________________________________
Capt.,
I have seen information at museums showing the use on compasses after the L&C journey, because of the Jefferson's letters talking about locations in degrees or setting according to a compass. Maybe that made them fashionable or folks more interested in map making as he (Jefferson) was in to that type of thing. In Reading PA at Boone's family place they have one of his compasses, of course that was his livelyhood. Bridger and Medina carried compasses when doing the westward movement think, library in Loveland CO had an old picture of Medina showing his pocket watch and a compass (of course he was very late fur trade).
Hope this helps, but the folks mentioned where above the average bear per say, most probably couldn't afford ball and powder, no less a compass that they didn't know how to work.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:32:15 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife on Ebay
On Sun, 10 September 2000, "harddog" wrote:
>
> Maybe it wasn't used that much, but it is something to look at.
> And as with every thing on E-Bay.... "Caveat Emptor "
> D
_____________________________
Dennis,
Remember the article Buck wrote about the French trade knive he wanted to buy and got talked out of it, that's an interesting article that would fit into this subject, is it on the AMM Baker site !
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:40:20 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco/knife in fur trade
On Sun, 10 September 2000, "Terrance Luff" wrote:
>
> concho srry so long getting back on nicotiana multivalis.........
>
> your info on tocco was good! were in the heck did you get thAT
> info. sure would like to raid you book self. breed joke!!!
> st TER/PONYRIDER from hiverant metis cart brigade
That article was written by Buck Conner's grandfather in the 1940's, met him once - he was a walking history book, him and Hanson would have made a pair with their knowledge. Saved several of Mr. Boyer's articles on Native American's as well as handling one's self in tuff situtations (he was a US Marshall, then a game warden in PA).
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:56:33 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old knife on Ebay
What clued you off to figuring it's a fake Larry?
Just wondering...
northwoods
>> Besides the points Dennis has already made, it's just too pristine. Even
a knife with a antler handle that had never been used wouldn't look that
good after that length of a time. As Dennis said, just climatic changes
would effect the handle a lot. Also the color of the handle is too even,
and there appears to be no bug damage. Unless it was kept in a cedar chest,
there would be some bug damage. It's just too slick. Anything is
possible, but if it is too good to be true, it most likely is.
Pendleton
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:48:42 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns
On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Pavel Grund" wrote:
I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and
> rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and teritory was used..........
___________________________________________
Pavel,
Go to this URL; half way through the article on tradeguns is a picture of maker marks, proof marks, etc., this may help you understand what your looking at.
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:49:11 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question - mystic symbols on guns
On Sat, 09 September 2000, "Pavel Grund" wrote:
I have interest of mystic symbols in relation to guns. In Europe are known diverse superstition and
> rituals, in America, as far as I know, mainly diferent symbols. Knows everybody how amount have diferent symbols and in what times and teritory was used..........
___________________________________________
Pavel,
Go to this URL; half way through the article on tradeguns is a picture of maker marks, proof marks, etc., this may help you understand what your looking at.
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm
Later.
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: 10 Sep 2000 20:20:04 -0700
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Knife On Ebay
On Sun, 10 September 2000, Concho wrote:
> Sorry to keep using Mr. Conner's name,........
WHERE ELSE HAVE YOU USED MY NAME CONCHO !!!!
Most of the knives mentioned don't have dates, dating is done by pin arrangement in handle and style of writing, markings, etc.on knife blade.............
WELL I'LL BE DAMN, YOU GOT IT RIGHT, CHARLIE WOULD BE PROUD THAT YOU WHERE LISTENING WHEN HE EXPLAINED THIS TO US MANY YEARS AGO.
> Another brother of the AMM, Ken "Quill" Smith had a great collection of Green River and Wilson knives that he and his brother had been collecting for 25 plus years, don't know if he is still on this list, answer up "Quill".
NOT SURE IF HE STILL ON THE LIST, WILL CHECK WITH HIM ON MONDAY AT WORK, HE DID HAVE OR MAY STILL HAVE A GOOD COLLECTION OF THESE KNIVES.
> In the footsteps of others,
>
> D. L. "Concho" Smith
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I JUST GOT IN FROM A GOOD FACTS FINDING TRIP TO CROSBY BROWN'S IN WASHINGTON MO, STOPPED AT THE MUSEUM AT THE ARCH IN ST. LOUIS, GOT TO GO IN THE ARCHIVES AND LOOK AT SOME NEAT L&C ITEMS, A COMPASS, WRITING EQUIPAGE, CAMP ITEMS, ETC.
LOGGED ON TO SEE WHAT'S GOING ON AND ALL I SEE IS "CONCHO" THIS AND "CONCHO" THAT, YOUR DOING THE OLD WASH WOMAN ON THE FENCE THING AGAIN. DID YOU CALL THE GUY I ASKED YOU TO ON THE FUR TRADE TRUNK LOCKS ?
LAST ISSUE OF MUZZLELOADER IN THE PRODUCTS AREA HAD THE "TRUNK MAN" FROM COLORADO AND A PICTURE OF HIS WARES, RECEIVED ONE LIKE THE PICTURE FROM HIM AND THEY ARE "RIGHT ON", EXCELLENT QUALITY AND VERY PLEASING TO THE EYE, CHECK HIM OUT FOLKS.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:05:08 EDT
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's
In a message dated 9/7/00 9:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ikon@mindspring.com writes:
<< the movie spoiler because on historical movies I
usually pick up some of the details that are not correct. >>
My wife does that, did you see the modern square bail of hay/straw in The
Patriot? She did.
YHOS
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:01:59 -0500
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Compass
Although this has absolutely nothing to do with whether the mountaineers
carried compasses, a compass would not have been too useful to the
mountaineers, especially in Canada. The problem is that the magnetic
pole is not at the north geographic pole. It is in far northern Canada,
amongst those Arctic Islands. In the western part of Canada, a compass
points 15 to 30 degrees east of true north, depending on how far you are
to the northwest. Furthermore, the farther you go north, the more the
magnetic field tilts downward. This results in two problems, 1) the
needle must have a counterweight that must be adjusted as one travels
north, and 2) there is less force to point north so the needle can be
unreliable because the friction of the needle pivot can keep the needle
from pointing to magnetic north. So as you approach the magnetic pole,
a compass becomes less and less reliable.
In the western US, the error of a compass is 10 to 20 degrees. Also,
there are a few magnetic anomalies in the west that can throw the
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:10:36 EDT
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
>Ho the list
>The attached jpg image is of a knife that I own that has a J.Russell & Co
Green River Works >logo on the blade with the date 1834 in the center of the
logo.
Lanny sent the above picture to all of us offlist and most should have had
the chance to look at it by now. I have photographed my Russel and put it up
on the web, so you can see another example. There are two pictures.....one
is of the whole knife and the second is just the logo. I ran over it with a
lead pencil to make it stand out enough to see.
http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/russell.jpg
http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/grw-logo.jpg
>The knife is relatively old.....how old, I don't know. Is the knife likely
to have been made in >1834? No. Apparently Russell didn't didn't sell any
Green River knives until about 1836. >Furthermore, the company probably
didn't use the diamond logo before about 1876. When was this knife made? I
don't know. Perhaps somebody can help out.
We discussed the Russell knives on the list some time back. I notice that
Lanny's has the later logo, and also only has three pins instead of five
holding the scales on. This also seems to be a factor used in dating the
knives.
Mine is in excellent condition. Some kind soul has taken a wire wheel to it
and buffed all the rust off the blade. I also believe that the scales have
been replaced, but am not sure. They are held on with 5 iron pins and there
appears to be rust underneath them. They appear to be oak. The tang also
tapers toward the butt of the knife rather than being a uniform thickness all
through the spine. I bought it off an antique dealer's table at an antique
flea market. I believe it to be an original that has never been used, but
somehow was stored for all these years and obtained it's rust and pitting
from just being stored all these years in less than desireable conditions.
Most of the deep pits in the blade appear to be fingerprints which were never
wiped off and subsequently rusted when in storage.
Like Lanny, without actually showing the knife to an expert, I have no way of
dating this knife. All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo on
them and only 3 pins. This one has neither. By all indications, it predates
the 1834 logo manufacture. It is either a treasure, or a pig in a poke.
Maybe someone knows.
Dave Kanger
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:06:43 -0600
From: Rick Williams <rick_williams@byu.edu>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long)
You've questioned the Miller paintings from a practical solution. Now how
about from a written aspect. One thing that jumps out at me is the
similarity in many of the Miller paintings as requard to accoutrements. The
powderhorns and shooting bags, many are just copies of the other. Is this
attributable to them all being the same brigade so they were outfitted from
the same source? Did he have a set of props (as do most artists) tht he
repainted. One thing that jumps out at me is how clean everyone is. Why
don't you see the black, black, grasy black, bloody black? Why is no one
shown wearing leggins? (work clothes, earlier style?) Perhaps they had
winter or trapping (working) wear and summer go to rendezvous wear.
Afterall most were painted (sketched) on their way to or at rendezvous.
This does fly in the face of the concept that they simply wore their clothes
until worn out. The traps when displayed (rarely) are almost always single
spring. (prop, common brigade source?). There is rarely the presence of two
bags on a trapper. Does that mean that a shooting bag doubled as a
possibles bag? Was the possibles bag on the horse or pack animals? In
light of the recent knife talk, where are the long knives. Most seem to be
standard butchers. Miller's fringe definately gets longer in his later
pictures. Just some thoughts.
Rick
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Charles P Webb
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 2:23 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's (Long)
I have seen and handled many of AJ Millers original paintings and
sketches. I agree that he indeed did attend a rendezvous, and
that his work is of value for research, but I have never felt that his
work accurately depicted the clothing of all that attended the
rendezvous. My humble reasoning is simple, try to assemble
a tipi today as he shows them in his paintings. Count the number
of poles, observe the smoke flaps and other details of lodges. If
indeed he was simply exercising his artistic license in drawing and
painting rendezvous lodges, is it not possible that this same artistic
license could have been used in his depiction of the clothing worn by
attending trappers?
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:15:39 EDT
From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass
It is true that areas in Canada have different amounts of correction to
determine north. The same thing is true not only of the United States but of
the world. Some of the declination corrections are a lot and some are not.
There is also a difference in the north star. A person standing at the north
pole would find the north star directly overhead and worthless as a
navigational aid. Every other star in the sky, however, would give all of
the information they give anywhere else. The sun also has differences. The
farther north you go, the farther south the sun rises and sets. That doesn't
mean that it no longer tells which way is east and west. It just means that
corrections must be made. One doesn't have to understand how all of that
works to use a compass. It is always good for a reasonably long term
reference.
YMOS
Blue Lodge
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:44:52 -0700
From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Compass
Hallo the Camp!
From my reading on the Canadian Fur trade, and the expeditions that wandered to
and fro, it would appear that mostly the leaders carried or knew how to use
compasses. The common man wandered without the aid of the compass, but relied on
more experianced travelers, or followed the streams.
Regards from North Idaho, where the declination is 19.5
Lee Newbill
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Date: 11 Sep 2000 16:05:26 -0700
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
On Mon, 11 September 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
> >Ho the list
> >The attached jpg image is of a knife that I own that has a J.Russell & Co
> Green River Works >logo on the blade with the date 1834 in the center of the
> logo.
>
> http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/russell.jpg
> http://members.aol.com/thisoldfox/grw-logo.jpg
>
> Apparently Russell didn't didn't sell any Green River knives until about 1836. >Furthermore, the company probably didn't use the diamond logo before about 1876........
LATER THAN 1876, CLOSER TO THE MID 1880'S.
> Mine is in excellent condition. I also believe that the scales have
> been replaced, but am not sure. They are held on with 5 iron pins and there
> appears to be rust underneath them.........
i HAVE SEVERAL ARTICLES ON THE NUMBER OF PINS (FROM 2 TO 7 PINS, OF WHICH I HAVE ALL THE PIN ARRANGEMENTS, THANKS TO CHARLES HANSON), WILL LOOK FOR THOSE ARTICLES ON THE IRON PINS, THEIR NUMBERS, DATES AND ARRANGEMENTS.
> All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo on them and only 3 pins.........
MUCH LATER THAN THE FUR TRADEOR THE CIVIL WAR, MAYBE END OF THE INDIAN WARS.
LATER
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:22:51 -0500
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
- -----Original Message-----
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com <ThisOldFox@aol.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: September 11, 2000 12:11 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
>Like Lanny, without actually showing the knife to an expert, I have no way
of
>dating this knife. All the later replicas seemed to have the diamond logo
on
>them and only 3 pins. This one has neither. By all indications, it
predates
>the 1834 logo manufacture. It is either a treasure, or a pig in a poke.
>Maybe someone knows.
>Dave Kanger
I think the one you have Old Fox is an older one. In the book Firearms Traps
and Tools of the M.M. Russel talks a little about the Green River knives and
says the "early" knives had a logo similiar to the one on the knife you
have. In the book Knives of Homespun America they show a Russel knife with
the same logo and state that it was from the period 1840 to 1875. I always
thought the five rivet knives were older, also the tapered tangs are the
older ones to my knowledge and that is what I look for when I buy. Somewhere
I read that the stamped logo knives predate the etched logos, I think
Lanneys knife is etched. I have a couple dozen of each, also some large
butcher knives, some Green Rivers that have Ebony handles and some that have
a metal bolster between handle and blade. Many I. Wilsons also.The best
Green River I had my cousin talked me out of, I sold it to him for what I
paid, $5. I had bought it from an old fellar and he said it was his
Grandpas, it came with a #5 newhouse bear trap which was also his grandpas,
even has his name stamped in the bottom. It was what was called a "Dadley"
model. It had an ebony handle. My cousin sold it to Charlie Hanson. I know
that the book American Knives by Peterson tells quite a bit about the Russel
company I don't have it handy its at my other house up north. A good book on
the subject which is on my want list is:
Merriam, The History of the John Russell Cutlery Company
1833-1936.....VG/VG........$25.00
c.1976, 8x11, 120p, hardbound with dustjacket, black/white illustrations,
Bete Press, MA
Content: co-authors Davis, Brown, and Buerger, subtitled: "An illustrated
story of the famous Green River Knives", provides a history of the
manufactory supplemented by numerous black/white photos plus a quality
reprint of the 1884 John Russell Cutlery Company catalog that includes
dining flatware as well as hunting knives, pocket knives and artists'
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:00:51 EDT
From: Wind1838@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [hist_text-digest V1 #622]Compass use
Osborne Russell stated in his journal, "I often take a star as my guide."
North will always be north but how long will satellites rotate the earth?
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question)
What did (if at all) the forefathers in the Rocky Mountains use to
condition, preserve these very important items? tallow? bear grease? wax
of some kind? a combination of these? i don't recollect that
neatsfoot oil was invented or discovered yet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:20:04 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question)
Buffalo, elk, antelope, etc...grease...applied at every meal......
hardtack
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Date: 11 Sep 2000 18:34:23 -0700
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings & Horse Tack (A Question)
On Mon, 11 September 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote:
>
> What did (if at all) the forefathers in the Rocky Mountains use to
> condition, preserve these very important items? tallow? bear grease? wax
> of some kind? a combination of these? i don't recollect that
> neatsfoot oil was invented or discovered yet.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon,
Have read about the use of rendered buffalo tallow that the Native Americans as well as Europeans used in caring for their leather goods, cookware and greasing their pots and pans when cooking. If kept clean it will last for long periods of time from hot to cold conditions, have used it for at least 20 years with not problems - cooking grease, mocs and leggings grease, patch lube after cleaning gun, rust preventor, sealer for waterproofing the pan, etc.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:59:45 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
Dave's knife is obviously older and very well might be 150+ years old. =
The stamped, inline logo and the 5 pins are good clues. My point in the =
original post was that trying to date a knife using a date stamped on =
its blade is a poor method. The date could mean darn near anything or =
darn near nothing. I have known that my knife is almost certainly not =
older than ca1875 and is very likely to be no older than about 66 years =
old. If I were to guess, it is a knife issued to commemorate the J. =
Russell company's 100th year of business, 1934. No matter, I like the =
knife and wouldn't sell it for what I have in it....$10.
YMOS
Lanney
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Date: 11 Sep 2000 19:31:34 -0700
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
On Mon, 11 September 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote:
>
> Dave's knife is obviously older and very well might be 150+ years old. The stamped, inline logo and the 5 pins are good clues. My point in the original post was that trying to date a knife using a date stamped on its blade is a poor method. The date could mean darn near anything or darn near nothing. I have known that my knife is almost certainly not older than ca1875 and is very likely to be no older than about 66 years old. If I were to guess, it is a knife issued to commemorate the J. Russell company's 100th year of business, 1934. No matter, I like the knife and wouldn't sell it for what I have in it....$10.
> YMOS
> Lanney
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lanney and others involved in this conversation,
see: "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson,
1994-Fur Press, Inc.
Pg 16. [The butcher knife], one of three standard nineteen
century trade knives. Standard pattern of the butcher's
knife and references to it by that name appear after the
Revolutionary war. It has changed little; the older ones do
not have a choil. In fact the blade was usually the same
width as the handle............. [picture].
Pg 17. [The butcher knife], by the end of the nineteenth
century was the only pattern from the fur trade days that
was still in use. Two walnut scales attached with 5 iron
pins. [picture].
This "Green River" dates to the Civil war. The company was
not started until 1834, it did not manufacture knives until
1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to a
rendezvous. [picture]. However, by the Civil war, Russell
knives were ubiquitous. Later knives bear a diamond trade
mark. [picture].
[picture] The knife shown here was sold by the Hudson's bay
company, (walnut scales, iron pins) in the first half of
this century. Notice how the later butcher knives have wider
blades, and the choil becomes more pronounced as time
passes.............
Pg 18. [The Rip knife], the peppercorn and diamond trade mark on Wilson
knives dates back to the mid eighteenth century, but the
country origin was not put on items made abroad for the U.S.
market until after 1890...................
Pg 19 [The Skinning knife], English makers in the 1870's (and later) began
marketing all sorts of export utility knives "Green River"
to capitalize on the immense success of John Russell's
"Green River Works' knives after 1850........
These few pages answer most of the questions about the
Russell and Wilson "Green River" style knife, this was just
a sampling of Hanson's information.
Still looking for the original information I wanted to share
on this subject. Get this sketchbook, good reference
material.
Maybe after you review this sketchbook, you'll see how hard it is
to date such a common tool. I'm finding this true with just a simple
item like a trunk lock, all the differences, types of metals, style of
putting them together, etc - the list goes on and on. An example
that I found interesting was the key hole, whether it was lined with brass
or copper makes a ten year difference in dating.
Stll looking for more information, later.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Date: 11 Sep 2000 19:44:15 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dates on old knives
On Mon, 11 September 2000, Buck Conner wrote:
> Lanney and others involved in this conversation,
>
> see: "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson,
> 1994-Fur Press, Inc.
>
> Pg 16. [The butcher knife], one of three standard nineteen
> century trade knives. Standard pattern of the butcher's
> knife and references to it by that name appear after the
> Revolutionary war. It has changed little; the older ones do
> not have a choil. In fact the blade was usually the same
> width as the handle............. [picture].
>
> Pg 17. [The butcher knife], by the end of the nineteenth
> century was the only pattern from the fur trade days that
> was still in use. Two walnut scales attached with 5 iron
> pins. [picture].
> This "Green River" dates to the Civil war. The company was
> not started until 1834, it did not manufacture knives until
> 1841. Therefore, no "Green River" knife ever went to a
> rendezvous. [picture]. However, by the Civil war, Russell
> knives were ubiquitous. Later knives bear a diamond trade
> mark. [picture].
>
> [picture] The knife shown here was sold by the Hudson's bay
> company, (walnut scales, iron pins) in the first half of
> this century. Notice how the later butcher knives have wider
> blades, and the choil becomes more pronounced as time
> passes.............
>
> Pg 18. [The Rip knife], the peppercorn and diamond trade mark on Wilson
> knives dates back to the mid eighteenth century, but the
> country origin was not put on items made abroad for the U.S.
> market until after 1890...................
>
> Pg 19 [The Skinning knife], English makers in the 1870's (and later) began
> marketing all sorts of export utility knives "Green River"
> to capitalize on the immense success of John Russell's
> "Green River Works' knives after 1850........
>
> These few pages answer most of the questions about the
> Russell and Wilson "Green River" style knife, this was just
> a sampling of Hanson's information.
>
> Still looking for the original information I wanted to share
> on this subject. Get this sketchbook, good reference
> material.
>
> Maybe after you review this sketchbook, you'll see how hard it is
> to date such a common tool. I'm finding this true with just a simple
> item like a trunk lock, all the differences, types of metals, style of
> putting them together, etc - the list goes on and on. An example
> that I found interesting was the key hole, whether it was lined with brass
> or copper makes a ten year difference in dating.
Your back and you beat me to the punch, just finished writing pretty much the same thing on this sketchbook on Windows 98, was getting ready to copy-paste and your message came across, well I guess thanks.
Sounds like you got the information for the troops on the early fur trade trunks, good show.
I'll keep looking for more information on the dating of the pins, blades, etc., remember that article you mentioned and a few done years ago in Buckskin Report.
Later
In the footsteps of others,
D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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