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Date: 13 Aug 2000 18:55:53 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
On Sun, 13 August 2000, LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote:
>
> I'd suggest you contact Panther Primitives and ask them. Also, they sell
> fire retardant treated canvas. Barney <A
- -----------------------------------------------
Capt L. has mentioned waterproofing and fire retardent canvas - it's dangers and good qualities before, and with his background I would believe him over a sales promotion saying it's safe. What's that old saying, "never heard a huskers cry rotten fish".
Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a number of the trade magazines.
Take care,
Daniel "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor
______________________________________
Historical Research & Development
______________________________________
"Research & field trials in the manner of
our forefathers, before production."
______________________________________
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:03:35 -0500
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting
Jim,
In the 1700's and 1800's linen was made from flax, which is the linen we are
familiar with today, but linen was also made from hemp. Hemp in those days
was grown in many parts of the U.S. Russia sheeting, (twilled hemp linen or
sail cloth), was generally made from hemp during the time period and was
readily available and cheap, unlike today when the sutlers want an arm and a
leg for it. Russia sheeting is not the same as canvas, which was also made
from hemp, because it was a twilled material. Twilled material is woven much
tighter than canvas. Twilled material shows a diagonal raised pattern in the
material. This twilled effect in material is actually like double thickness.
Randy Hedden
AMM #1393
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Date: 13 Aug 2000 19:12:15 -0700
From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
On Sun, 13 August 2000, Concho wrote:
> Capt L. has mentioned waterproofing and fire retardent canvas - it's dangers and good qualities before, and with his background I would believe him over a sales promotion saying it's safe. What's that old saying, "never heard a huskers cry rotten fish".
>
> Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a number of the trade magazines.
>
>
> Take care,
> Daniel "Concho" Smith
> Historical Advisor
> ______________________________________
> Historical Research & Development
> ______________________________________
> "Research & field trials in the manner of
> our forefathers, before production."
> ______________________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had a Panther Primitives fire retardant canvas that was about 5 years old, been cared for in the usual manner, in good condition. Remember Concho how that baby went up in smoke on the Upper Missouri one night from a spark from a camp fire, fast enough that it burned a hole 2' in dia. before we could get it out.
Talked to Sam about this at Panther, he never did figure out why that happened, old age or faulty material ? Becareful with any of the yard goods around your fire, treated or not.
Hey Concho see you got that job by the information after your name, good deal - you'll be a great addition to those people.
Take care,
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:23:42 -0700
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
The problem is that he used a degreaser. The chemical Canvac or any repellent
will have a problem adhering to the surface. Your might want to soak the whole
tent in the water repellent. Spraying on the surface may not stick.
Also make sure it is a hot day, as these are paraffin based and need to be hot to
soak in. Panther and all the other tipi manufacturers use an already treated
canvas and do not apply surface chemicals.
Another is to talk to boat/canvas people and see what they might use after washing
their sails. And talk to those who use canvas for sails and not nylon or
synthetic materials.
Linda Holley
LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote:
> I'd suggest you contact Panther Primitives and ask them. Also, they sell
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:23:41 EDT
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
In a message dated 8/13/00 7:13:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes:
> I had a Panther Primitives fire retardant canvas that was about 5 years
old,
> been cared for in the usual manner, in good condition. Remember Concho how
> that baby went up in smoke on the Upper Missouri one night from a spark
from
> a camp fire,
Thanks Buck. Hmmmm. That was definitely enlightening. I'm thinkin' I been
placing too much reliance on the 'fire-retardant' tag. Barney
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:08:18 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Concho" <concho@uswestmail.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
> Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a
number of the trade magazines.
Concho,
I presume you speak to me? <G> FWIW, if your buying tentage or yardage from
a reputable dealer like Panther Primitives or RK, etc. and they list an item
as fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not
support
Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in
it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn
(which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self
extinguish. In any case I would feel safe relying on what they advertise as
the properties of the material they use.
If a company is offering a "fire proof" material, it must surely be asbestos
or metal because most of the synthetic and natural materials will burn and
thus can not be claimed to be "fire proof". I would be very skeptical of any
such claims. I am not aware of any material that we can afford that will
not burn. Kevlar and "Nomex" (a brand name) exibit "fire proof" properties
but they are not suitable for what we do by price alone, not to mention with
respect to authenticity.
There is no home treatment that we can apply that will render a combustible
fabric totally fire retardent or fire proof although natural material
treated with borax will be some what harder to ignite.
For my part as a fire fighter, I take precautions to be as save as I can
when using flame or heat of any kind. My lodge is around 25 years old and
untreated and all my various leanto's and bed rolls are untreated though
some have been impregnated with various oils and wax's in an attempt to make
them more servicable in wet weather. I have never had a problem with any of
them relavent to fire other than perhaps burning a small hole in my
linseed/bees wax treated muslin bed roll cover or holes in my Thompsons
treated "first" leanto. They did not burst into flame but rather started a
glowing hole that required only the swift application of a smothering action
on my part to extinguish.
Keep it away from the camp fire. Watch for sparks from sparking wood. Watch
where you hang a candle. Don't make the lodge fire too big. Be aware, be
safe. End of lesson. Hope that was what you were looking for. <G> I
remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:18:01 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I had a Panther Primitives fire retardant canvas that was about 5 years
old, been cared for in the usual manner, in good condition. Remember Concho
how that baby went up in smoke on the Upper Missouri one night from a spark
from a camp fire, fast enough that it burned a hole 2' in dia. before we
could get it out.
>
> Talked to Sam about this at Panther, he never did figure out why that
happened, old age or faulty material ? Becareful with any of the yard goods
around your fire, treated or not.
Friends,
Personal experience speeks lowder than my opinion. Take care and be
skeptical of claims. Capt. L
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Date: 14 Aug 2000 04:58:23 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
Thank you, you came through again old friend.
> > Roger give us a lesson on some of these products that are shown in a
> number of the trade magazines.
>
> Concho,
>
> I presume you speak to me? <G> FWIW, if your buying tentage or yardage from
> a reputable dealer like Panther Primitives or RK, etc. and they list an item
> as fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not
> support
> Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in
> it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn
> (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self
> extinguish. In any case I would feel safe relying on what they advertise as
> the properties of the material they use.
>
> If a company is offering a "fire proof" material, it must surely be asbestos
> or metal because most of the synthetic and natural materials will burn and
> thus can not be claimed to be "fire proof". I would be very skeptical of any
> such claims. I am not aware of any material that we can afford that will
> not burn. Kevlar and "Nomex" (a brand name) exibit "fire proof" properties
> but they are not suitable for what we do by price alone, not to mention with
> respect to authenticity.
>
> There is no home treatment that we can apply that will render a combustible
> fabric totally fire retardent or fire proof although natural material
> treated with borax will be some what harder to ignite.
>
> For my part as a fire fighter, I take precautions to be as save as I can
> when using flame or heat of any kind. My lodge is around 25 years old and
> untreated and all my various leanto's and bed rolls are untreated though
> some have been impregnated with various oils and wax's in an attempt to make
> them more servicable in wet weather. I have never had a problem with any of
> them relavent to fire other than perhaps burning a small hole in my
> linseed/bees wax treated muslin bed roll cover or holes in my Thompsons
> treated "first" leanto. They did not burst into flame but rather started a
> glowing hole that required only the swift application of a smothering action
> on my part to extinguish.
>
> Keep it away from the camp fire. Watch for sparks from sparking wood. Watch
> where you hang a candle. Don't make the lodge fire too big. Be aware, be
> safe. End of lesson. Hope that was what you were looking for. <G> I
> remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Do it right or forget,
Daniel "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor
______________________________________
Historical Research & Development
______________________________________
"Research & field trials in the manner of
our forefathers, before production."
______________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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------------------------------
Date: 14 Aug 2000 05:03:24 -0700
From: Concho <concho@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
> Hey Concho see you got that job by the information after your name, good deal - you'll be a great addition to those people.
>
>
>
> Take care,
> Buck Conner
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, not bragging but they fell at my feet when I excepted there offer and agreed to think of moving back to the mid-west. Hee Hee <GR> Will miss PA and the old fort sites we would travel to when you where here years ago.
Do it right or forget,
Daniel "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor
______________________________________
Historical Research & Development
______________________________________
"Research & field trials in the manner of
our forefathers, before production."
______________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 07:52:04 -0500
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
A while back, I did a burn test of untreated canvas, canvas treated with
the wood preservative (like Thompsons), and canvas treated with paraffin
disolved in naptha. The naptha was allowed to vaporize, leaving only
the paiffin. I hanged strips of the materials and lit the bottom with a
match and measured the time it took for the strip to be completely
involved in fire.
The results were about the same for the three samples. They ALL burned
like blazes!
So far I have been pretty lucky. I have only burned down one canvas
tent. ;-)
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
>Does anyone else on the list have any thoughts , views, opinions, ect.
>on this subject ?
Lightning
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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 07:50:00 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Concho" <concho@uswestmail.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
> Thank you, you came through again old friend.
Concho,
My pleasure. Capt. L
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1980 08:05:19 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
>>OK, here's the quote and it comes from the July/August issue of Muzzle
Loader Magazine, page 38, middle paragraph of the article "Alexander
Mackenzie Searches for the Northwest Passage, Part 1" by Tony Hunter.
<snip>
"Ninety pound pieces of pemmican and others of jerked venison and parched
corn provided an adequate food supply. The cargoes were covered with cloths
soaked in corn oil and animal fat to make them waterproof" (Vail 35-36)<<
Well, this is shaping up to be a classic example of why you have to go to
the primary source. I've read Mackenzie's journals, and I'm pretty sure all
he does is mention "oilcloth"--he never describes how his oilcloths were
treated. Presumably that was done back in England, since I've never seen a
description of oilcloth-making in the other Canadian fur trade journals
I've read. Indeed, I'd be very interested in any mention of corn oil in my
period (1774-1821), since I'm also interested in food. In short, I think
Vail goofed; perhaps he was using a late 19th-century formula for
waterproofing in a late 18th-century context.
As for Tony Hunter, I was a bit surprised and disappointed by his
bibiliography. Sure, biographies of Mackenzie can shed more light on the
man, but why didn't he read Mackenzie's own journals? It's not like they're
inaccessible; in fact, the entire text of the original printing is
available online at www.canadiana.org, and there are countless paper
editions, including the 1970 one that sits on my shelf.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good piece of research. . . going to the primary =
source, and=20
getting the story straight - a practice we all should get =
into a=20
habit of doing more often.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As to the manufacture of oil cloth, the Spring =
"88" issue of=20
the "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" states that the making of =
oil=20
cloth dates back to about 1740. It notes that a linen piece of cloth =
of the=20
proper dimension was placed in a moveable vertical frame, so the =
material=20
could be stretched. It was first coated with a sizing solution on both =
sides,=20
rubbed smooth with a pumice block while still wet. After dry, two =
coats of=20
paint applied to each side. The first coat as thick as molasses using =
linseed=20
oil and paint pigments with very little turpentine. This was smoothed =
out with=20
a long, narrow tapering trowel. When this was dry a more fluid second =
coat was=20
applied with a brush.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>For the primary sources on the above information, =
the=20
Quarterly references:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"The Textile Manufactures of Great Britain," by =
George Dodd,=20
London, 1845.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"The American Dictionary of Commerce," by L. De =
Coianga,=20
Boston, 1880.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Terry R. =
Koenig</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:51:34 -0700
From: "Michael W. Finnie" <mwf1@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:oilclothe thots
>On the face of it, the use of corn oil or something similar including animal
>fat seems to be a very likely candidate for the actual process since it is
>called "oil cloth" and from personal experience, linseed oil is not the best
>of materials to use since it dries so hard unless thinned or mixed with
>another material like Bee's Wax.
wasn't sperm[whale] oil used for purt' near everything back then?
respectfully,
mike
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Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:53:30 -0700
From: "Butch Wright" <bwright01@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:oilclothe thots
"...large numbers of oiled sheets and tarpaulins were prepared at York for
use throughout the country for divers purposes such as ground sheets and as
protective coverings for fine furs. For such articles, large quantities of
sail cloth were imported annually from Britain. It was soaked in oil
distilled in huge vats from considerable number of artic whale caught each
year in Hudson Bay by the company's schooner master and his able crew with
the little fleet of ships maintained at the factory."
WEST of the MOUNTAINS, "James Sinclair and the Hudson's Bay Company", by
D.Geneva Lent, published by Univ. of Washington Press, 1963, page 38 & 39
This documentation may be for a few years later then most of you want.
It is about 1818 at York Factory which was located on Hudson's Bay. The
observation was made by James Sinclair. He was born about 1806 at the
Hudson Bay's trading post of Oxford House, located between Lake Winnipeg and
Hudson Bay. His father was the Chief Trader, William Sinclair, who did much
to help the original Red River settlers. James became a free trader and
being 1/2 Cree ( his mother was Cree), he had the loyality of the Metis`.
He served as a British agent and lead two parties of settlers to the Oregon
Territory. James died in 1856 ironically saving a party of Americans during
an Indian attack.
I guess my only real point is it is quite possible there was more then
one way, one formula and one mindset on how to waterproof material. I doubt
the Longhunters used whale oil. I was just responding to the question below
regarding whales.
Butch
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael W. Finnie <mwf1@earthlink.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 2:55 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:oilclothe thots
>
>>On the face of it, the use of corn oil or something similar including
animal
>>fat seems to be a very likely candidate for the actual process since it is
>>called "oil cloth" and from personal experience, linseed oil is not the
best
>>of materials to use since it dries so hard unless thinned or mixed with
>>another material like Bee's Wax.
>
>wasn't sperm[whale] oil used for purt' near everything back then?
>
>respectfully,
>
>mike
>
>
>----------------------
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Date: 14 Aug 2000 18:15:05 -0700
From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
probably from laughting at your resume.
On Mon, 14 August 2000, Concho wrote:
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Yes, not bragging but they fell at my feet when I excepted there offer and agreed to think of moving back to the mid-west. Hee Hee <GR> Will miss PA and the old fort sites we would travel to when you where here years ago.
>
>
> Do it right or forget,
> Daniel "Concho" Smith
> Historical Advisor
> ______________________________________
> Historical Research & Development
> ______________________________________
> "Research & field trials in the manner of
> our forefathers, before production."
> ______________________________________
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Take care,
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:35:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: upcoming local event
The Muzzleloaders of Western Wayne County Conservation Association will
hold its 21st annual Labor Day Weekend Rendezvous from Friday thru
Monday September 1-4 at the club in Plymouth Township. There will be a
Friday fish fry and activities focusing on the fur-trade era of
1760-1840. For more information on the event and fees, contact Leonard
"Firestarter" Darnell at 734-397-0243.
[Michigan Out-Of-Doors, Sep.2000, p.106]
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