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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #607
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Sunday, August 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 607
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
-áááááá MtMan-List: Water Proofing
-áááááá MtMan-List: Vail
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Water Proofing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Vail
-áááááá MtMan-List: Water Proofing
-áááááá MtMan-List: russia sheeting
-áááááá MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
-áááááá MtMan-List: Before our time BUT...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Before our time BUT...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
-áááááá MtMan-List: russia sheeting
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
-áááááá MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:46:54 -0600
From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver traps
Rod Douglas does make some mighty fine traps, I'll give him that.
There's also a fellow here in Utah that makes nice hand forged traps.
Allen Hall donated one of them to the museum. Perhaps Allen can remember
the mans name, or at least can get it. As I recall, these particular
traps cost around $125.00 each, which I believe is one of the better
deals you're likely to find. Prices are high, that's why my friends and I
are treying to make our own.
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1980 20:13:43 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
Capt. Lahti wrote:
>> I just read about it's use historically in a quote that I
think Angela may have passed on to us about how tarps used to protect goods
carried via Voyager Canoe/Mackenze boat through Canada were treated. All it
said was that the goods were covered with tarps water proofed or treated
"with corn oil and animal fats".<<
Yikes! When was that?! It must have been quite a while ago, because I don't
remember anything about it, and I would expect to. I think I might have
posted, quite a while ago, a note to the effect that oilcloth was routinely
used by voyageurs, with some documentation, but I don't recall ever reading
anything about how the oilcloth was made. Maybe it's that K.R.A.F.T.
disease I've been hearing about?
Your perplexed yet humble and obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:51:45 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1980 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
I think I might have
> posted, quite a while ago, a note to the effect that oilcloth was
routinely
> used by voyageurs, with some documentation, but I don't recall ever
reading
> anything about how the oilcloth was made. Maybe it's that K.R.A.F.T.
> disease I've been hearing about?
>
> Your perplexed yet humble and obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
Angela,
May not have been your post but it was a quote from some British Explorer
and likely something you would have cotributed. I will go back through my
messages and see if I can find it. Stand by. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:58:55 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
Angela,
Can't find it in my latest messages and I know I read it within the past
couple weeks so I think it was in T&LR or Muzzle Loader. I will look. I
remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela Gottfred" <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1980 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
> Capt. Lahti wrote:
> >> I just read about it's use historically in a quote that I
> think Angela may have passed on to us about how tarps used to protect
goods
> carried via Voyager Canoe/Mackenze boat through Canada were treated. All
it
> said was that the goods were covered with tarps water proofed or treated
> "with corn oil and animal fats".<<
>
> Yikes! When was that?! It must have been quite a while ago, because I
don't
> remember anything about it, and I would expect to. I think I might have
> posted, quite a while ago, a note to the effect that oilcloth was
routinely
> used by voyageurs, with some documentation, but I don't recall ever
reading
> anything about how the oilcloth was made. Maybe it's that K.R.A.F.T.
> disease I've been hearing about?
>
> Your perplexed yet humble and obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 21:13:39 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
Angela and Gentlemen,
OK, here's the quote and it comes from the July/August issue of Muzzle
Loader Magazine, page 38, middle paragraph of the article "Alexander
Mackenzie Searches for the Northwest Passage, Part 1" by Tony Hunter.
Hunter is explaining how Mackenzie had taken such great pains to make sure
all his bases were covered on this particular expedition and he is talking
about all the contents of the cargo that went into four large canoes.
"Ninety pound pieces of pemmican and others of jerked venison and parched
corn provided an adequate food supply. The cargoes were covered with cloths
soaked in corn oil and animal fat to make them waterproof" (Vail 35-36).
That's what I am going by. I presume Vail was a trustworthy reporter and got
it right. Don't know who Vail is by the way. Sorry for dragging you into
this Angela. <G> I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:40:50 -0500
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Water Proofing
Capt. L,
I wonder what these tarps smelled like after the oil and fat got rancid?
Also wondering how long before the corn oil and fat mixture started rotting
the material?
Randy Hedden
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:54:13 -0500
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Vail
Capt. L,
According to the bibliography for Hunter's article in Muzzleloader Mag,
Phillip Vail wrote "The Magnificant Adventures of Alexander Mackenzie",
published in 1964. Wonder where he got his information if not from
Mackenzie's journals? Guess we would have to dig up a copy of Vail's book
and look at his footnotes and the bibliography for that book?
YMOS,
Randy Hedden
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:05:22 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Proofing
Harddog,
Don't know but it will be worth experimenting to find out. Capt. L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 9:40 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Water Proofing
> Capt. L,
> I wonder what these tarps smelled like after the oil and fat got rancid?
> Also wondering how long before the corn oil and fat mixture started
rotting
> the material?
> Randy Hedden
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:19:21 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vail
Harddog,
Sounds like the way to go. Got a copy? Capt. L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 9:54 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Vail
> Capt. L,
>
> According to the bibliography for Hunter's article in Muzzleloader Mag,
> Phillip Vail wrote "The Magnificant Adventures of Alexander Mackenzie",
> published in 1964. Wonder where he got his information if not from
> Mackenzie's journals? Guess we would have to dig up a copy of Vail's book
> and look at his footnotes and the bibliography for that book?
>
> YMOS,
>
> Randy Hedden
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:18:24 -0500
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Water Proofing
Capt. L,
Nope, don't have a copy of Vail's book or of Mackenzie's journals.
YMOS,
Randy Hedden
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:19:57 -0700
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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what exactly is russia sheeting ? cotton? linen? also how heavy was =
it compared to modern canvas duct? thanks tom
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Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>what exactly is =
russia sheeting=20
? cotton? linen? also how heavy was it compared to =
modern=20
canvas duct? thanks =20
tom</FONT></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:06:55 -0500
From: "harddog" <harddog@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting
Tom,
Russia sheeting was/is twilled, hemp linen material, (sailcloth), and
apparently came in various weights or thicknesses as various inventory lists
and bills of sale show russia sheeting that was used to make tents and cargo
covers as well as russia sheeting that was used to make military packs and
trousers, much like cotton duck comes in various weights today depending on
intended use.
YMOS,
Randy Hedden
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:28:25 EDT
From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
In an earlier message, Roger Lahti writes:
<< Water proof it with bee's wax and corn oil or a modern formula. >>
I dunno folks. Last winter in deer camp I saw first hand just how fast a
canvas tent can go up in flames when my buddy crawled out from under it in
just the nick of time. Making the burn down time increase does not seem like
sound advice. Just food for thought. I'm all for using period methods in most
cases, but there are times when I must consider the safety factor. I'd go
with a modern water proof myself.
Longshot
"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:09:39 -0400
From: Robert M Keefe <doctarie@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
> > Hello to all on the list. I have a problem I'm sure has come up
> from
> > time to time for someone on this list. I recently bought a used
> panther
> > 14x10 wall tent that had ben power washed with degreaser.
>
> you need to get the degreaser off. It is decreasing the surface
> tension of
> the water. Try washing the tent, first in soap, then a time or two
> in plain
> water, (you must get all the soap off first) THEN try water proofing
> it
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Does anyone else on the list have any thoughts , views,
opinions, ect. on this subject ? I have washed the tent very well and put
the canvac on with a pump sprayer , do you think it would be better to
brush or roll on ? I'm really lost for an answer
Lightning
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 14:40:35 GMT
From: "scott mcmahon" <mountedranger@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
what exactly is russia sheeting ? cotton? linen? also how heavy was it
compared to modern canvas duct? thanks tom
As was previously mentioned Russia Sheeting is made of hemp...I'm not sure
if it fell thru or not but Sharon Brown of Whitehall MT was working on
getting some for sale here in the states...I understand it's pretty pricey
to import...you could give her a call or write her at Couturiere De
Victoriana 209 N. Whitehall St PO Box 651 Whitehall MT 59759 406 287 9233
fax 406 494 5938...Sharon carries ALOT of good period material at good
prices so if you're looking.....
Sincerely,
Scott McMahon
mountedranger@hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:50:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Before our time BUT...
From another forum I belong to, this on ╓tzis' ax
head. Would you care to comment?
"That copper axe head is a wonder. On a UK documentary
they tried to make a replica within a modern
metallurgical lab. They couldn't get close to its
quality. No doubt modern engineers could replicate it
with time but they were dumbfounded how it could be
achieved with "primitive" methods. Its discovery has
lead to a complete rewriting of the history books on
when the copper age may have started. Its nice to have
these mysteries. I think we are losing our way really
not blazing a new trail. "
To me, this loosens the listers' strict adherence to
documented authenication. Not saying that anything
goes, just saying that they seem brighter than us now.
On a side note , according to the Bible, the Ark of
the Covenant is built along the lines of a capacitor.
Some western Native American tribes had the makings of
a battery. Wild West, anyone?
=====
defstones
In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird, and people take Prozac to make it normal!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:01:07 -0500
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Before our time BUT...
- -----Original Message-----
From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: August 13, 2000 10:50 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Before our time BUT...
>>From another forum I belong to, this on =D6tzis' ax
>head. Would you care to comment?
Not really appropriate disscussion for this forum in my opinion but I hav=
e
to ask who is Otsi?
>"That copper axe head is a wonder. On a UK documentary
>they tried to make a replica within a modern
>metallurgical lab. They couldn't get close to its
>quality. No doubt modern engineers could replicate it
>with time but they were dumbfounded how it could be
>achieved with "primitive" methods.
Why is the axe a wonder? Why couldn't they get close to it's quality? Mak=
ing
an axe out of copper doesn't require anything more than "primitive
technology" to my knowledge.
Its discovery has
>lead to a complete rewriting of the history books on
>when the copper age may have started.
I have books that are over 100 years old that speculate on the north
american copper age being thousands of years old. It's been widely accept=
ed
since the 1950s' that people have been utilizing copper in N. America for
several thousand years. Many archeologist who study the matter have known
for years that evidence exists which indicates its use for 10,000 or more
years.
Whats mysterious about that?
northwoods
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:23:11 -0600
From: "Terry R. Koenig" <trkoenig@pvtnetworks.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
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Tom:
The Spring 1988 issue of "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" (Vol. =
24, No. 1 ) has an excellent 2 page article, on the manufacture, and use =
of oilcloth/Russia Sheeting.
Terry R. Koenig
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:39:05 -0700
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
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I should have known it was hemp. I also should have checked the =
archives. thanks, list mates for all the good imfo.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I should have known it was hemp. =
I also=20
should have checked the archives. thanks, list mates for all the =
good=20
imfo.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:13:57 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader
Longshot,
Just for what it's worth, as a retired Fire Capt. I can assure you that
there are very few water proofing treatments (and that are effective) that
you can use that are not going to increase the flammability/combustibility
of canvas. You can buy a canvas that has been commercially treated though I
don't know where you get it. I know that flannel intended for children's
sleep wear is so treated and will not support combustion (the flame dies out
on it's own, without a flame from some other source to keep it burning). But
whatever, there is no substitute for good common sense and safety. Most if
not all the cases of lodges or etc. burning up were the result of some
pretty stupid actions as is usually the case. Your free to do as you wish.
I'll take appropriate steps and not worry about it. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:22:03 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
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Terry,
I don't have that issue. Before my time as a subscriber. Can you =
condense the process down to the basics for us? Capt. L
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Terry R. Koenig=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
Tom:
The Spring 1988 issue of "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" (Vol. =
24, No. 1 ) has an excellent 2 page article, on the manufacture, and use =
of oilcloth/Russia Sheeting.
Terry R. Koenig
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:55:19 EDT
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: waterproofing lodge
I'd suggest you contact Panther Primitives and ask them. Also, they sell
fire retardant treated canvas. Barney <A
HREF="http://www.catalogcity.com/ViewCover.cfm?VID=150674">Panther Primitives<
/A>
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:42:01 EDT
From: Casapy123@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: russia sheeting
There is an article in the Museum of the Fur Trade (Vol. 24, No.1. pp. 1-3)
that was previoulsy mentioned in this string. That article does NOT use the
word hemp at all in the entire article! According to that article, "Russia
sheeting was a coarse, heavy linen cloth."
It doesn't get much clearer than that. Hemp is very costly and, while it may
be a period fabric, not everything has to be made from it. Now, linen isn't
exactly cheap, but it is more affordable and more available than hemp.
Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. box 1228
Quincy, CA 95971
(530)283-4566 (H)
(283-3330 (W)
(530)283-5171 FAX
Casapy123@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1980 19:43:23 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810
Here are a couple more items I found in my reading of the journal of
Alexander Henry the Younger, for the winter of 1810-1811, at Rocky Mountain
House (at present-day Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada). I thought
list members might be able to tell me what incidents from the summer of
1810 are being described here, or just be interested in a different
perspective:
"...a party of their [Fall Indians'] Country men were just returned from
the war upon the Crow Mountain Indians, where they had fought a Battle with
their enemies upon the Yellow Stone River, where they had also seen a Fort
which they supposed was occupied by the Americans...During the head of the
battle the Crow Mountain Indians called out to them that in future they
would save them the trouble of coming to war upon them, that the ensuing
Summer they would in company with the Americans go to war upon them and
find them out upon the banks of the Saskatchwoine [N. Saskatchewan R.].
Arms and Ammunition they were not in want of. Their traders had good hearts
towards them and never rendered them pitiful &c &c." (Gough 2:533)
"Last Summer these people [Gros Ventres] upon a War excursion fell upon a
party of Americans or Freemen from the Isbenois [Illinois]; they confess to
have murdered them all, and brought away a considerable booty in utencils
Beaver Skins &c. Some of the Beaver Skins I observed were marked, Valley
and Jnumell with different numbers 8, 15 &c." (Gough 2:545)
"The Blood Indians [part of the Blackfoot Confederacy--A.G.] had been at
War upon the Missouri nearly about the same time the Fall Indians. They
also fell upon a party of Americans and murdered the whole of them, and
brought away a considerable Booty consisting of Goods of various kinds such
as fine cotton shirts, Beaver Traps, Hats, Knives, Dirks, Handkerchiefs,
Russie Sheeting Tents, and a number of Bank notes, some signed and others
not, New Jersey and Trenton Banking Company. From the description the Blood
Indians give of the dress and behaviour, one of the party whom they
murdered must have been an Officer [i.e. management-level guy, not a
military officer--A.G.] or a Trader. They say he killed two Blood Indians,
before he fell." (Gough 2:545-546)
Any thoughts?
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
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