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hist_text-digest        Saturday, June 3 2000        Volume 01 : Number 570



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
-áááááá MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
-áááááá MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
-áááááá Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Canteens
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
-áááááá Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canteens
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dixie Catalog
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing
-áááááá Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Asphaltum Update
-áááááá MtMan-List: virus gone
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fishing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona
-áááááá MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona

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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:28:07 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil

LongWalk,
You have said nothing that I could disagree with.
I have wondered why there is no mention of cast iron cooking equipment in
the journals or list of goods shiped when I see drawings of Miller that show
them. And why there are parts of cast iron pots at Bents Fort, Astoria and
Fort Union?. I would guess that the record is incomplete and that we are
looking at the ice burg senario.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil
>Date: Thu, Jun 1, 2000, 9:33 AM
>

>Washtahay-
>At 06:38 AM 5/31/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>It seems to me that if I were back in those day's I would trade for plews
>>more than trap for them, having the local indians do the work wrather then
>>having to wade into a frozen stream myself.
> The reality of the situation was that the natives were aware of the trade
>opportunities, and frequently found that raiding--for goods or for items
>sought in trade-- was more productive than trapping.  A few references to
>be considered on this subject are "The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade
>Relations 1795-1840" by Joseph Jablow (get the Bison Press edition instead
>of the original, its about $8 vs around $50), "Counting coup and Cutting
>Horses--Intertribal Warfare on the Northern Great Plains 1738-1889" by
>Anthony McGinnis, and "Changing Military Patterns of the Great Plains
>Indians" by Frank Raymond Secoy.   I can get ISBN numbers if anyone wants.
>
>>As most of the traders know, it
>>is hard to antisipate what will sell so you bring a lot of diferent items.
> But the lists of trade goods taken to the mountains, the forts, and the
>trading posts tell us what was sought by the buyers.  For a later
>discussion of this topic you might look at "Metal weapons, tools, and
>ornaments of the Teton Dakota Indians" by James Austin Hanson.
> I'm curious, and am hoping someone will have some knowledge on this: what
>was the US military using in the west during the period in question?  I've
>seen sheet iron pots with US markings that date from the 1860s, but don't
>know what was in use earlier.  Accounts of the Revolutionary War discuss
>the "heavy" pots and seem to indicate cast iron, but I have no idea what
>was used in between.  So far, I haven't found records of the governement
>purchasing cast iron for the military but I think it likely that I haven't
>yet found the right foundry records.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:37:04 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil

> I have wondered why there is no mention of cast iron cooking equipment in
> the journals or list of goods shiped when I see drawings of Miller that
show
> them.

Maybe they called them something other than "Cast Iron"?  Just plain metal
pots, or Iron pots, etc... ??

Ad Miller


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:04:20 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil

On 1 Jun 00, at 15:19, Ole B. Jensen wrote:
> Most trappers traveled in a group however there were some that traveled
> alone due to circumstance.
> Having only one horse would make traping un proffitable, how do you get your
> hides out? walk and lead the horse with the plews on it's back?. They had a

Sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that I suspected that
a trapper would try to reserve as many of his pack animals for
consumables going in, and furs going out, as possible. His
personal stuff/camp gear would probably be light enough to carry
with him on his current mount.

I also suspect that new hiker syndrome ( something I see today on
National Forest trails ) would apply here. The greener the
greenhorn, the more junk he would tend to pack around.

Kristopher K. Barrett

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:11:04 -0500
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil

Ole #718 wrote about the guy who had a fancy truck with no where to
drive it:

>I don't know why, but vanity will make people do strange things.

Ole pointed out an important point about the fallacy of using logic to
deduce what the mountaineers had, did, etc.  People are not always
logical, and the mountaineers are no exception.  Look at today.  What is
the logic in wearing a buttoned collar with a strap of cloth snuggly
cinched around one's neck?  With long ends of the strap to get in the
way or serve as a convenient handle in a tussle!

It has already been pointed out that mountaineers shunned canteens.
There are many accounts of severe thirst, so it would have been logical
to carry canteens.  But A.J. Miller said that it was considered to be
effiminate for a mountaineer to carry a canteen.

As for me, I quickly skip reading the posts that say "I would have"
"They would have" "It stands to reason" etc.

As far as the Great Dutch Oven debate, I can only profusely apologize,
with strikes to my breast, for bringing up the subject a couple of
months ago by citing a State of Utah web page that authoritatively
claimed the mountaineers used Dutch Ovens.  I predicted a lot of
discussion, but who could have imagined what has transpired.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:29:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona

"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."

c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.

any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
Barkin ??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:18:25 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]

You Boys have just gotta try possum on the half shell.  Ya just don't know
what yer missing.  <GG>
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]


Beaver liver is GREAT!!!
D

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]




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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:53:44 -0700
From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona

The San Pedro is in the SE part of the state and is a tributary of the Heeley
(Gila river). The first trappers in Arizona worked that area starting in 1825.
James Ohio Pattie recorded the first trapping activities in that area followed
by another expedition in 1826 that included james O and Sylvester Pattie,
Milton Sublette and Antione Leroux. This was headed up by Michele Robidoux.
Also in 1826 Cerain St Vrain and Bill Williams trapped the area and Patties
returned again in 1827.

There were most likely many more unrecorded expeditions on the San Pedro
during the late 20' and 30s, but because all of Arizona and New Mexico was
mexican territory, not American, there were alot of unlicenced trappers who,
even if they could write, wouldn't want any journals of their illegal
activities known. Many of the new Mexican Trappers married mexican women in
order to become naturalized Mexican citizens and therefore obtain trapping
licenses to be able to legally dispose of their furs in Santa Fe without the
heavy tarriffs imposed on foriegners.

The area abounded in beaver which although lighter in color and slightly
inferior in quality was nevertheless able to be trapped all through the winter
months when trapping in the Rockies came to a standstill.

Arizona banned steel traps about eight years ago through legislative action
after a referendum failed, although there are efforts currently to repeal the
ban.

Hope this helps

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
>Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
>the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
>beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
>built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
>rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."
>
>c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.
>
>any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
>Barkin ??
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Michigan
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:46:41 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canteens

Washtahay-
    there was a comment under this heading about E. coli being a potential
problem when using animal bladders as canteens, unfortunately I deleted the
post.
    Something about that struck me as wrong but I had so much else going on it
took a while to sink in.  E. coli is a digestive tract bacteria, not
normally found elsewhere unless the other parts of the animal are
contaminated by feces.
    The normal bladder used for a water container is the pericardium (the sac
around the heart)--there should be no E. coli present.  I have seen the
intestines used to carry water, but it makes the water taste bad and the
intestines don't last long in this application.  Theoretically, E. coli
could be a problem in this application.  But...
    The E. coli that causes problems is an acid-resistant strain.  Our stomach
acids normally kill the non-acid-resistant strains.  The growth of
acid-resistant strains is "forced" by feeding the animal grains,
particularly corn.  Animals consuming grasses (such as buffalo) normally
have the non-resitant strains, which might explain how such bladders were
used successfully as water vessels for so many thousands of years.
    Regarding questions of durability: if the water is changed on a daily
basis, such a bladder will last for a fairly long time in constant use.
The pericardium is naturally puncture resistant and fairly flexible.
    I guess the moral is if you want to use the pericardium as a canteen, keep
the shit out of the chest cavity.
    Other animal-sourced canteens were made from the entire skins of animals.
In the southwest and in Mexico, I've seen them made from the skins of dogs
and goats.  You carefully case the animal from the head, leaving the tail
end intact.  Flesh the hide, being sure to remove all integumentary
membrane.  Tie off the anus and vent with fine stitches and seal with pine
pitch.  Usually the "mouth" of the canteen consists of a wood ring sewn
into the neck, the bag is twisted and tied to close it.
LongWalker c. du B.


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:56:36 -0700
From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona

The San Pedro is in the SE part of the state and is a tributary of the Heeley
(Gila river). The first trappers in Arizona worked that area starting in 1825.
James Ohio Pattie recorded the first trapping activities in that area followed
by another expedition in 1826 that included james O and Sylvester Pattie,
Milton Sublette and Antione Leroux. This was headed up by Michele Robidoux.
Also in 1826 Cerain St Vrain and Bill Williams trapped the area and Patties
returned again in 1827.

There were most likely many more unrecorded expeditions on the San Pedro
during the late 20' and 30s, but because all of Arizona and New Mexico was
mexican territory, not American, there were alot of unlicenced trappers who,
even if they could write, wouldn't want any journals of their illegal
activities known. Many of the new Mexican Trappers married mexican women in
order to become naturalized Mexican citizens and therefore obtain trapping
licenses to be able to legally dispose of their furs in Santa Fe without the
heavy tarriffs imposed on foriegners.

The area abounded in beaver which although lighter in color and slightly
inferior in quality was nevertheless able to be trapped all through the winter
months when trapping in the Rockies came to a standstill.

Arizona banned steel traps about eight years ago through legislative action
after a referendum failed, although there are efforts currently to repeal the
ban.

Hope this helps

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
>Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
>the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
>beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
>built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
>rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."
>
>c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.
>
>any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
>Barkin ??
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Michigan
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:56:57 -0700
From: vnb <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver in Arizona

The San Pedro is in the SE part of the state and is a tributary of the Heeley
(Gila river). The first trappers in Arizona worked that area starting in 1825.
James Ohio Pattie recorded the first trapping activities in that area followed
by another expedition in 1826 that included james O and Sylvester Pattie,
Milton Sublette and Antione Leroux. This was headed up by Michele Robidoux.
Also in 1826 Cerain St Vrain and Bill Williams trapped the area and Patties
returned again in 1827.

There were most likely many more unrecorded expeditions on the San Pedro
during the late 20' and 30s, but because all of Arizona and New Mexico was
mexican territory, not American, there were alot of unlicenced trappers who,
even if they could write, wouldn't want any journals of their illegal
activities known. Many of the new Mexican Trappers married mexican women in
order to become naturalized Mexican citizens and therefore obtain trapping
licenses to be able to legally dispose of their furs in Santa Fe without the
heavy tarriffs imposed on foriegners.

The area abounded in beaver which although lighter in color and slightly
inferior in quality was nevertheless able to be trapped all through the winter
months when trapping in the Rockies came to a standstill.

Arizona banned steel traps about eight years ago through legislative action
after a referendum failed, although there are efforts currently to repeal the
ban.

Hope this helps

Barkin Dawg

>===== Original Message From [e-mail] =====
>"Arizona: Sierra Vista -
>Beavers have been reintroduced to the San Pedro River to help diversify
>the aquatic habitat of the national conservation area.  Six of nine
>beavers released in the river over the past year have chosen mates and
>built dams, which officials say will help create deeper pools and
>rippling streams.  Local beavers were wiped out in the 1800's."
>
>c.f. USA Today, Wed. 05-31-00, p.11A.
>
>any comments on these doings by Arizona AMM member Vic "Barkin Dog"
>Barkin ??
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>from Michigan
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:09:29 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate/Anvil

Hello Glenn,

I for one am glad you brought the subject up.  James Clyman in his Journal
of a Mountain Man on page 111 talks about the Fort Bridger in 1844.  Saying
there were only about 30 of Bridger's men left with him.  I have read of
earlier Mormon travelers who stopped at Ft. Bridger who noted that some 100
mountain man lodges were gathered at the trading post.  Bridger was here at
the mouth of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone with a large group of
mountain men for the winter of 1836-37.  After returning from Canada via
Fort Union near the mouth of the Yellowstone River.  Clyman makes a big
point that they were not in the trading business but in the trapping
business 1823.  They were going to cut out the Indian middlemen.  Determined
to go around the problem area of gaining the upper Missouri and access to
the Yellowstone country by via horse back up the North Platte River and
using that as the back door.  In looking at the map in the book.  Clyman
shows only one trip north west of the Big Horns.  While the passage used by
the rendezvous system for 15 years from 1825-1840 is on the map as is Fort
Hall.  I for one was really glad to see the post on Lewis and Clark and 1811
Manual Lisa posting.

Thanks
Walt
Park City, Montana




As far as the Great Dutch Oven debate, I can only profusely apologize,
with strikes to my breast, for bringing up the subject a couple of
months ago by citing a State of Utah web page that authoritatively
claimed the mountaineers used Dutch Ovens.  I predicted a lot of
discussion, but who could have imagined what has transpired.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:13:49 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]

Trapped a troublesome Possum onc't... Anyone that can look at an ugly
critter like that and think "FOOD" sure ain't et in a very L O N G time!!!
I've eaten Bear, Elk, Venison, Turtle, Montana Panther, dog, rattle snake,
and a few other things I never asked what it were... All of it was good...
especially the Rattlesnake... and it DON'T taste like chicken!!!

Ad Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:18:56 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens

> The normal bladder used for a water container is the pericardium (the sac
> around the heart)--

Dumb question here... I always thought the "Bladder" they were talking about
was the urinary bladder... well cleaned and washed of course...

Ad Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:29:50 -0600
From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dixie Catalog

Hello the list

If someone has the 2000 Dixie Catalog, could you please send me (off
list)the price and item # for a Kentucky roundball mold in .520

Thanks,

Ron

<(⌐┐⌐)>

[e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:51:48 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men Fishing

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the fine responses to my request for "mountain men fishing"
references.  Very helpful.

John R. Sweet

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:28:21 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]

you got that right pentelton cooks in its own juices (Greese)---white
meat almost like yard bird but a bit slicker---needa a bit of salt and
hot sauce to make real good---

HAWK

On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:18:25 -0700 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> You Boys have just gotta try possum on the half shell.  Ya just don't
> know
> what yer missing.  <GG>
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Miles <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
>
>
> Beaver liver is GREAT!!!
> D
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: gone under???]
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:11:06 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Wyoming State Museum Discovery Trunk

The Wyoming State University Museum has put together lesson plans and a
"Discovery Trunk," for teachers wishing to present instruction on the
American Fur Trade and Mountain Men.

Those of you working with Boy Scouts or presenting to school-age children,
might want to check out this web site, print the lesson plans, and duplicate
the contents of the trunk.  There is no problem using any of the materials,
the university just wants credit to be given to them when used.  The web site
is:

commerce.state.wy.us/cr/wsm/mount.htm

Dick Summers

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:12:36 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona

Amm brother Jim Mahoney sent me this info in the new beaver population on
the San Pedro. The "removal" aspect could hold some promise...I'll be
watching the developments.

Comments Sought on Proposed Beaver  Reintroduction

The Bureau of Land Management, in cooperation with the Arizona Game and
Fish Department (AGFD), has prepared a draft Environmental Assessment and
Finding of No Significant Impact addressing a proposal to reestablish North
American beaver into the San Pedro Riparian National Conservation Area.
This document is now available for public review and comment through
February  18, 1997.

During an open house in Sierra Vista hosted by the BLM and AGFD, many
people submitted ideas and comments concerning the proposal. The 36_page
environmental assessment addresses the issues brought forward by the public
including  the suitability of the San Pedro riparian habitat for beaver;
the beaver's  influence on streamflow, water quality, and sediment
deposition; economic impacts of beaver; and the beaver's potential impacts
on riparian vegetation, human health, consumptive water use by vegetation,
and wildlife habitat and species, especially threatened and endangered
species. The reintroduction will provide many benefits to the San Pedro
riparian ecosystem by improving streamflow, water quality, riparian soils,
vegetation, and wildlife diversity.

Beaver reestablishment was first proposed by the BLM and AGFD in the San
Pedro Habitat Management Plan (signed November 1993).  Careful study has
been performed by both agencies to determine the feasibility of the
proposal.  If approved, AGFD will capture and release the animals, and BLM
and AGFD will jointly monitor the beaver to determine the effects of the
release.  Private landowners will be allowed to remove individuals from
their land  if damage occurs.

If you would like a copy of the Environmental Assessment and Finding of  No
Significant Impact, please contact the BLM Tucson Field Office at 12661
East Broadway, Tucson, AZ 85748_7208, or call 520_722_4289.  Please address
your comments to Jesse Juen, BLM Tucson Field Manager, at the above
address.  If you have additional questions, please contact Mark Fredlake,
BLM Wildlife  Biologist, at 520_458_3559.

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
AMM #1537
Three Rivers Party

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:14:08 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Asphaltum Update

- --=====================_10786277==_.ALT
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Some time back we had a discussion regarding asphaltum.

I was wandering through a "Tractor Supply, Co." store the other day and
noticed 5 gallon cans of a real asphaltum varnish sold for coating corral
poles to prevent cribbing.

I haven't tried it, I don't have an immediate need.

John...


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
john [e-mail]
_________________________________________-
Real men still have 8" floppies.
64k "CPM"rules.
Long Live "DR/DOS!"



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Some time back we had a discussion regarding asphaltum.<br>
<br>
I was wandering through a "Tractor Supply, Co." store the other
day and noticed 5 gallon cans of a real asphaltum varnish sold for
coating corral poles to prevent cribbing.<br>
<br>
I haven't tried it, I don't have an immediate need.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
<i>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. <br>
</i>john [e-mail]</font><br>

<font size=3>_________________________________________-<br>
Real men still have 8" floppies.  <br>
64k <b>"CPM"</b>rules.  <br>
Long Live <b>"DR/DOS!"<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></b></html>

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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:27:11 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: virus gone

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I recently "acquired" the 'kak' worm and inadvertantly passed it on.  =
Sorry if your computer was also infected.  I clicked on McAfee.com and =
downloaded their latest and greatest virus scan (in retrospect $30 a =
year seems pretty cheap), which detected and cleaned my computer of the =
problem.....at least McAfee insists I'm clean.  I also enlisted the help =
of my friend Mike Katona who gave me valuable advice....Thanks Mike.
So, as far as I know, my posts should be safe to read.   Prime BS, =
perhaps, but hopefully safe to open.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff=20
 =20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I recently "acquired" the 'kak' worm and =
inadvertantly passed=20
it on.  Sorry if your computer was also infected.  I clicked =
on=20
McAfee.com and downloaded their latest and greatest virus scan (in =
retrospect=20
$30 a year seems pretty cheap), which detected and cleaned my computer =
of the=20
problem.....at least McAfee insists I'm clean.  I also enlisted the =
help of=20
my friend Mike Katona who gave me valuable advice....Thanks =
Mike.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>So, as far as I know, my posts should be safe to read.   =
Prime=20
BS, perhaps, but hopefully safe to open.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff </DIV>
<DIV> <SPAN =
id=3D__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:42:17 -0600
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing

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Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era =
mountain men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?) =


John R. Sweet

 About the first of January 1833, the game getting scarce in this =
vicinity, the Indians left us & moved down the river. We remained at =
this station employing our time in hunting, fishing, and such other =
sports as we could come at, but without any particular occurrence, until =
the 20th of February, when we set out on our spring hunt.

Zenus Lenard page 25 also mentions fishing page 13

YMOS

WY


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>Does anyone recall any primary source references to fur trade-era =
mountain=20
men fishing (either angling, suing fish traps or seines, etc.?) </P>
<P>John R. Sweet</P>
<P> About the first of January 1833, the game getting scarce in =
this=20
vicinity, the Indians left us & moved down the river. We remained at =
this=20
station employing our time in hunting, fishing, and such other sports as =
we=20
could come at, but without any particular occurrence, until the 20th of=20
February, when we set out on our spring hunt.</P>
<P>Zenus Lenard page 25 also mentions fishing page 13</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:41:48 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona

Bear in mind that beaver have been in northern Arizona all along.  They were
never eradicated from the Colorado (including the Grand Canyon) and its
tributaries, and there has been a real nice population of them in Chevelon
Canyon and some of the other "rim creeks" (Clear Creek, Wet Beaver Creek, et.
al.) for decades, at least.

Chevelon Canyon was named for a French trapper that died there after eating
"some poisonous root" -Will C. Barnes, ARIZONA PLACE NAMES (Tucson: U. of A.,
1935): 90.

The question is whether beaver were historically ever present in the San
Pedro R., which I suspect they were, but does anybody have any documentation?

Historical presence doesn't mean much to US Fish & Wildlife, since they
planted the Mexican wolf up in the rim country of NM, when those wolves had
been trapped in semi-tropical Durango, Mexico and had never been recorded
farther north than extreme southern AZ (see Young and Goldman, THE WOLVES OF
N. AMERICA, Washington, 1944.)

John R. Sweet

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Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:46:29 -0400
From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: VIRUS--thanks for help

List members, I got the monday nite virus. Not being very literate on
computers I was sunk. My friend Marilyn posted questions to help me. Thanks
to all who replied and answered questions to help me float again. Without
your help I wouldn`t have got rid of the virus.

I urge all to stay up dated on your virus program. I didn`t and got caught
with the virus. I now have an up to date Norton program.


AGAIN THANKS TO EVERYONE

John (BIG JOHN) Hunt


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Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:23:21 -0600
From: "Terry R. Koenig" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more info- Beaver in Arizona

John:

For documentation/explanation of beaver in the San Pedro/ Beaver River, see
David J. Weber's  " The Taos Trappers" Univ. of OK Press, p. 96, and the
"Personal Narrative Of James O. Pattie" by Timothy Flint, Univ. of NB Press,
p. 58.

Terry Koenig


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