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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #564 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, May 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 564 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage -áááááá MtMan-List: Dutch ovens -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed. -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Dutch ovens -áááááá Dutch ovens again was Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 -áááááá MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark/Saddles -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L & C Horses -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:L & C Horses -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage -áááááá MtMan-List: "smell powder" -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:23:55 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage In a message dated 5/27/00 4:10:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kj7ca@nvbell.net writes: > Maybe send your horn ahead via Fed Ex or something? BE SURE AND CHECK FEDEX REGULATIONS...... From what I've read, there ain't no way they allow any kind of explosive or container or gun or ammunition or anything of the sort. UPS seems to be a bit more lax in their reg's. Barn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:30:43 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens The book COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION, by George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic show photos of several 'Dutch oven' type cooking pots. Of four shown, three are of the rounded side type that are often called 'African' style, the other is straight sided and very much resembles what is common today although this one is not credited with having a lid. Incidentally, in this same book is a picture of a priming horn from the 1700's that has a silver 'thingy' spout on it. It also shows several small horns which, according to the text, could have been used as pocket horns for powder or priming usage. Whether such and such was actually used by the RMFT guys, I dunno. Wasn't there. Frank Fusco - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 10:40:05 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFC891.167A7340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello John Funk and everybody reading this on the list world-wide, I am surprised he remembered me at all. It appears you were on the right track and then unsuccessful in getting to the same resource that I did. If you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is highly likely that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we got different results. You may consider this issue ôtrivialityö. I would consider this information to be significant, at least for the mountain men who operated out of The Fort Union Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the upper Yellowstone. You can see it where you would be ôbotheringö them and ôwasting their timeö if you want to. I think furthering good research requires a cool head, steady hands and a consistent approach. This time I will blaze the trail. I believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in addition to the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the phone. My supposition as you call it is based on the empirical evidence of the 4 artifacts now in question. Raining hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you were here, the last time we talked. Snow and cold in the mountains and trappers would still be able to take good beaver from the high country streams. Camp meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop strings for stretching and drying beaver pelts. Easy way to make rawhide into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and drive it into a piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady. Drive a knife blade in along side about 7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart. Take a piece of rawhide and cut it into a circle about the diameter of the span of your little finger to the out spread width of your thumb. Making it about 9 inches in diameter. Start a cut the width of the space between the 2 blades and start pulling. When you get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of hoop strings out of rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as needed in a short period of time to hoop beaver. I also think that if the sun was shinning bright the trappers who were working the river bottoms where they could drive pegs into the ground may have had no need of hoops. I prefer to think of it as we are covering the same ground looking for the same thing not that your dealing with me. Have a good day and we will see what turns up along the trail. Walt Park City, Montana Walt, I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to this group. I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union. He barely remembered who you are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed on material culture. He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a possible source of information. He has no idea about any modern camp oven cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have on this or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people regarding your supposition. The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is worth wasting their time. I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic. The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong person, is repeated here below: begin quote 2/29/00 posting ... Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian. 1. base fragment 2. rim fragment wedge shape 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters. 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post. Walt Park City, Montana end quote 2/29/00 ... Do I really need to comment further? At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker: Everybody knows that the Dutch ... There is nothing that everybody knows! I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere before the last half of the nineteenth century. I've looked. John... - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFC891.167A7340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01BFC890.EDAF55C0">  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> Hello John Funk and everybody reading this on the list = world-wide,<o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> I = am surprised he remembered me at all. = It appears you were on the right track and then unsuccessful in getting to = the same resource that I did. = If you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is highly likely = that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we got different = results. You may consider this issue = “triviality”. I would consider this = information to be significant, at least for the mountain men who operated out of The Fort = Union Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the upper Yellowstone. <o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> You = can see it where you would be “bothering” them and “wasting their = time” if you want to. I think furthering good = research requires a cool head, steady hands and a consistent approach. This time I will blaze the = trail.<o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> I = believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in addition to = the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the phone. My supposition as you call it = is based on the empirical evidence of the 4 artifacts now in question. <o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> Raining hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you were here, = the last time we talked. Snow and = cold in the mountains and trappers would still be able to take good beaver from = the high country streams. = Camp meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop strings for = stretching and drying beaver pelts. = Easy way to make rawhide into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and = drive it into a piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady. Drive a knife blade in along = side about 7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart. Take a piece of rawhide and cut it into a circle about the = diameter of the span of your little finger to the out spread width of your = thumb. Making it about 9 inches in = diameter. Start a cut the width of the = space between the 2 blades and start pulling. When you get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of hoop = strings out of rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as needed in a = short period of time to hoop beaver. = I also think that if the sun was shinning bright the trappers who were = working the river bottoms where they could drive pegs into the ground may have = had no need of hoops. I = prefer to think of it as we are covering the same ground looking for the same = thing not that your dealing with me.<o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> Have a good day and we will see what turns up along the trail.<o:p></o:p></= p> Walt<o:p></o:p></= p> Park City, Montana<o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p><= /p> Walt, I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to = this group. I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union. He barely remembered = who you are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he = referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed on = material culture. He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a possible = source of information. He has no idea about any modern camp oven cast = iron, or what if any information the other two people may have on this or any = other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people regarding = your supposition. The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, = I really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is worth = wasting their time. I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp = ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this = topic. The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong person, is repeated here below: begin quote 2/29/00 posting ... Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster = and Randy Kane/Historian. 1. base fragment 2. rim fragment wedge shape 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters. 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading = Post. Walt Park City, Montana end quote 2/29/00 ... Do I really need to comment further? At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker: <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> Everybody knows that the Dutch = ...<o:p></o:p><= /p> There is nothing that everybody knows! I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere = before the last half of the nineteenth century. I've looked. John... <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html> - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFC891.167A7340-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1980 12:00:53 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Dutch ovens To recap, our documentation on Dutch ovens discussed on the list to date is now: Excavated: 1 (Bent's Fort) Inventoried: 36 iron pots, almost certainly cast iron (at Fort George, fka Astoria--see post by Dean Rudy, Dec. 20/97) Mentioned in journal: 1 (L&C) Hypothetical (i.e. documented as used in nearby place or time, but not directly tied to fur trade): 3 (now including Ragsdale's book) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:08:15 -0500 From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Dutch ovens again was Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 Washtahay- At 01:03 PM 5/27/00 -0500, someone wrote: >Apparently >your interpretations of the report lead you to believe otherwise, which is >certainly okay, although I don't understand why if you wouldn't be surprised >that they were used at Astoria you find it so hard to believe that they were >at Bents Fort especially considering the evidence which is at hand. As I said in another post, it isn't a question of belief. By training and inclination, I am what might be described as an "itinerant scholar"--a student of what interests me. As an intellectual challenge, I decided to dig into the question of whether or not cast iron pots were available and in use in the western fur trade prior to 1840. I don't have a particular point to prove here--I seldom carry a dutch oven with me as I most often arrive at my campsite on foot--but when opportunity allows I do use my ovens in the field. It isn't that I really _care_ , I just want to _know_. Before I got tired of the ad hominem attacks, I posted to the list (2/29/00) information regarding a cast iron lid found at Fort Atkinson under circumstances that seem to indicate it dated from the occupation period. Were I seeking support for an argument that cast iron was not present during the period in question I'd not have done so. Since that point, I continued to research the subject. I've found use of the term "dutch oven" dating back as far as the early 1600s in europe. I've found records of the purchase of cast iron kettles by jobbers who dealt with the US factory system and the fur trading houses. But I've not found anything to indicate that cast iron vessels (by whatever name) entered the fur trade in the Rocky Mountains. (Several times I thought I was on to something when I found mention of "iron kettles" in the lists, but in every case the weight indicates they could not have been cast iron. At this point, it seems to me they were called "iron kettles" to distinguish them from "tin kettles", i.e., sheet iron kettles that had been dipped in tin to prevent rust.) The results of my research were written up and submitted for publication a few weeks ago; of course TODAY I realized another approach to the question. As time allows I'll get started on that. LongWalker c. du B. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:27:20 -0700 From: "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark/Saddles What provision did Lewis and Clark make for saddles. My collection of L & C volumes is still packed from the move, and I am unable to access them at this time. I recall that they traded for horses just North and West of present day Dillion, MT. Did they have sufficient saddles for their needs at that time? Also, what percentage of the men rode as opposed to walked after horses were available? Regards, Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 9:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great Dutch Oven Debate > Well looks like you guys want to get into the Dutch Oven authenticity stuff > again. Maybe you should think about logic also. > > I've said this before (and let me make it clear that this is ONLY my > opinion) but what would an average mountaineer have carried? A Dutch Oven, > a brazier or any other kind of heavy shit like that? Well if I were there > back then, that would be the last thing I would carry with me. Sure some of > it was out there and available during the time period, but so was a > submarine, hot air balloon and a bunch of other stuff that would not be > appropriate in the mountains. > > My view is, just because you can document something only proves it was > there, not that it was common. I can document a lot of stuff that William > Drummond Stewart took to Rendezvous in 1837. Does it mean if everyone wants > to have something at Rendezvous that he brought, which was uncommon, it > would be OK? Only if you think it would be OK for half the people at > Rendezvous to portray Stewart. > > I cook with stuff as simple as possible. That means with sticks over the > fire, a small tin boiler and maybe a small folding steel frying pan. I also > bring as little as possible. I've learned that less is more and my horse > agrees. > > Just my 2 cents. > > Best Regards, > > Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ > > > >No Sir, > > > >The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union > >Trading Post. Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the > >mountain man period. > >Walt > >Park City, Montana > > > > > > > >> You guys aren't really serious about starting round > >> two of the dutch oven debacle, are you??? > >> > >> Tom > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:54:49 -0700 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage On Sat, 27 May 2000 19:15:14 -0700 "Paul W. Jones" <pwjones@excelonline.com> writes: > Other than being an express violation of federal law, you should find > no > difficulty in this endeavor. Unless caught. > > Paul > I know we may be cutting some fine lines here---but if the horn is empty when put into your luggage then how would it be against the law---if putting powder horns in your luggage is against the law---then color me guilty---when i am traveling and find one or more i pick them up---but I do check to see that they are empty----have had to go to the luggage pick up a couple of times and open the case and show them that there was no explosives there---usually what happens if the sniffers find it your luggage misteriously gets opened and checked then at the other end you get there and no luggage appears on the carasoll---then when you go to the office you get a line of crap and they note that you are not transporting anything except the residue--- sniffer dogs will also pick up your cloths by the way if you have been doing a lot of shooting of black powder---have seen that happen also---with a extremely good dog--- best bet is to ship it UPS and say that it is "cow horn historical antique or modern artifacts"---no explosives---just my humbel opinion of course--- HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:59:05 -0700 From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L & C Horses As well as I can tell, reading in the book L & C among the indians by Ronda.....pg. 154 '" When clark carefully examined the twenty-nine horses in the expedition's corral, he found them to "nearly all sore backs, and several pore and young"" pg 156, after meeting the Flatheads..... The flatheads generously took a number of worn out horses in exchange for some of their healthy and "elegant" ones. Twelve good mounts were added to the expedition's herd. (same page) The following day ........adding two fine animals to the herd. No more mention of adding horses as the corps begins to cross Lolo Pass. According to this source, there were 43 horses. In my copy of the journals Lewis mentions readying the horses, saddles, etc.. Hope this helps... hardtack - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:07:30 -0700 From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:L & C Horses Also.....according to Stephen Ambrose....'Undaunted Courage' pg 285 (hardback) The expedition now had approximately thirty-nine horses, three colts and one mule- for packing, riding, or food in the last extreme.... hardtack - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 20:11:01 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage Hallo the List, I've been following this line for a while, and being an air line pilot, I do have an interest. Black powder is NOT, as most know, allowed on passenger flights. Your powder horn, very empty, is, and I'd suggest using air pressure to blow the inside of the horn clean. You only get to blow the tail, or belly, off an airplane once.... so buy your black powder at your destination. Most have by now, heard of the brain dead woman from Alaska that put a loaded hand gun in her checked baggage and blew a hole through a perfectly good plane.... that kinda stuff scares me.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 20:26:26 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: "smell powder" Hallo the List, In "Forty Years a Fur Trader", Charles Larpenteur (on page 8) writes; "....and toward evening he got so drunk himself that he frequently asked me if I did not want to "smell powder", but as I never felt like smelling powder as he proposed, I declined, not knowing why he used the expression." Now....I may have been born at night,.... but not last night..... so I'm thinkin he's not referring to black powder! Anyone know of just how wide spread this was? Selling whiskey to the Injuns sounds honorable.... Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:36:27 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed. - --=====================_80178931==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walt, This is John Kramer not John Funk. When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast iron"=20 artifacts of which he had no knowledge. I read him the information as you= =20 posted it. He had no recollection. The "modern camp oven" is my term used to distinguish those from all the=20 other possible cast iron pots. The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of The= =20 American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a camp=20 oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom. A fairly common old=20 style pot. John... At 10:40 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hello John Funk and everybody reading this on the list world-wide, > > > >I am surprised he remembered me at all. It appears you were on the right= =20 >track and then unsuccessful in getting to the same resource that I=20 >did. If you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is=20 >highly likely that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we=20 >got different results. You may consider this issue triviality . I would= =20 >consider this information to be significant, at least for the mountain men= =20 >who operated out of The Fort Union Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the=20 >upper Yellowstone. > > > >You can see it where you would be bothering them and wasting their time if= =20 >you want to. I think furthering good research requires a cool head,=20 >steady hands and a consistent approach. This time I will blaze the trail. > > > >I believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in=20 >addition to the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the=20 >phone. My supposition as you call it is based on the empirical evidence=20 >of the 4 artifacts now in question. > > > >Raining hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you=20 >were here, the last time we talked. Snow and cold in the mountains and=20 >trappers would still be able to take good beaver from the high country=20 >streams. Camp meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop= =20 >strings for stretching and drying beaver pelts. Easy way to make rawhide= =20 >into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and drive it into a=20 >piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady. Drive a knife blade in=20 >along side about 7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart. Take a piece of rawhide=20 >and cut it into a circle about the diameter of the span of your little=20 >finger to the out spread width of your thumb. Making it about 9 inches in= =20 >diameter. Start a cut the width of the space between the 2 blades and=20 >start pulling. When you get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of= =20 >hoop strings out of rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as=20 >needed in a short period of time to hoop beaver. I also think that if the= =20 >sun was shinning bright the trappers who were working the river bottoms=20 >where they could drive pegs into the ground may have had no need of=20 >hoops. I prefer to think of it as we are covering the same ground=20 >looking for the same thing not that your dealing with me. > > > >Have a good day and we will see what turns up along the trail. > >Walt > >Park City, Montana > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Walt, > >I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to=20 >this group. > >I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union. He barely remembered who you= =20 >are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he=20 >referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best=20 >informed on material culture. He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator= =20 >as a possible source of information. He has no idea about any modern camp= =20 >oven cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have=20 >on this or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the=20 >above people regarding your supposition. The other two folks won't be=20 >available until Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with=20 >this triviality is worth wasting their time. > >I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp=20 >ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic. > >The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong=20 >person, is repeated here below: > >begin quote 2/29/00 posting ... > >Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian. > > 1. base fragment > 2. rim fragment wedge shape > 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters. > 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center >These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post. >Walt >Park City, Montana > >end quote 2/29/00 ... > >Do I really need to comment further? > >At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker: > >Everybody knows that the Dutch ... > > >There is nothing that everybody knows! > >I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere=20 >before the last half of the nineteenth century. I've looked. > >John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> - --=====================_80178931==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> Walt, This is John Kramer not John Funk. When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast iron" artifacts of which he had no knowledge. I read him the information as you posted it. He had no recollection. The "modern camp oven" is my term used to distinguish those from all the other possible cast iron pots. The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of The American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a camp oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom. A fairly common old style pot. John... At 10:40 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote: <blockquote type=3Dcite cite>Hello John Funk and everybody reading this on the list world-wide, I am surprised he remembered me at all. It appears you were on the right track and then unsuccessful in getting to the same resource that I did. If you used any word like modern in your sentence I think it is highly likely that you through off the Chief Historian that maybe how we got different results. You may consider this issue triviality . I would consider this information to be significant, at least for the mountain men who operated out of The Fort Union Trading Post from 1828-1840 on the upper Yellowstone. You = can see it where you would be bothering them and wasting their time if you want to. I think furthering good research requires a cool head, steady hands and a consistent approach. This time I will blaze the trail. I believe I can go back and find-furthering referencing at Ft. Union in addition to the 4 listed artifacts I wrote down word for word over the phone. My supposition as you call it is based on the empirical evidence of the 4 artifacts now in question. Rain= ing hard here in the Red Lodge country you said was so hot when you were here, the last time we talked. Snow and cold in the mountains and trappers would still be able to take good beaver from the high country streams. Camp meat skins, particularly deer are suitable to make up hoop strings for stretching and drying beaver pelts. Easy way to make rawhide into lacing material is to take a hawk or camp axe and drive it into a piece of fire wood big enough to hold it steady. Drive a knife blade in along side about 7/16 to 5/16 of an inch apart. Take a piece of rawhide and cut it into a circle about the diameter of the span of your little finger to the out spread width of your thumb. Making it about 9 inches in diameter. Start a cut the width of the space between the 2 blades and start pulling. When you get the hang of it a trapper can make up a lot of hoop strings out of rawhide with or without hair on the deer hides as needed in a short period of time to hoop beaver. I also think that if the sun was shinning bright the trappers who were working the river bottoms where they could drive pegs into the ground may have had no need of hoops. I prefer to think of it as we are covering the same ground looking for the same thing not that your dealing with me. Have= a good day and we will see what turns up along the trail. Walt Park City, Montana Walt, I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to this group. I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union. He barely remembered who you are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed on material culture. He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a possible source of information. He has no idea about any modern camp oven cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have on this or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people regarding your supposition. The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is worth wasting their time. I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic. The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong person, is repeated here below: begin quote 2/29/00 posting ... Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foste= r and Randy Kane/Historian. 1. base fragment 2. rim fragment wedge shape 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters. 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post. Walt Park City, Montana end quote 2/29/00 ... Do I really need to comment further? At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker: Everybody knows that the Dutch ... There is nothing that everybody knows! I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere before the last half of the nineteenth century. I've looked. John... </blockquote> <div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div> <div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div> <div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div> <div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div> <div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"= EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div> <div>mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> </div> </html> - --=====================_80178931==_.ALT-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #564 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.