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hist_text-digest         Sunday, May 28 2000         Volume 01 : Number 563



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
-áááááá MtMan-List: Spanish helmet
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:35:33 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like
those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the ears and
bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't
know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by
myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along to
something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in and am going
to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you get right down
to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica guns and many
other accouterments aren't all that much different.
Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500


>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the previous
>discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain man
>period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.
>There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and through
>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to establish
that
>the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous today was
>present.    Barney
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:45:37 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

Actually, since I had a book published that has in it Dutch oven cooking, I
did as much research as I could without it getting redundant. All I could
find about the name of Dutch ovens was that during colonial times the Dutch
(who didn't make them) traded so many of them that they acquired the name
Dutch oven. There were a few other explanations, but without solid
foundations or references. Paul Revere made one of silver, then later when
he set up an iron foundry, made many of them. They had three legs and
slanted sides, just like the ones we get today. The ears were fancier, bails
varied. The quality of the iron by then was not bad and just like today,
tended to crack if it was left out with water in it to freeze. I am fairly
convinced that the Dutch ovens, in close approximation to what we get today,
was around during the fur trade period. I doubt that any mountain man
carried one along on his pack animal, but surely could have been carried in
a trader's wagon or by Stewart. I'm not arguing that they were in the
mountain men's equipage, or at rendezvous, essentially I really don't care
much since I only try to emulate the skills of the mountain men, not reenact
their times. As I've posted, I don't carry heavy items when I trek, but if
I'm going to be at a national event where they  are accepted, I might truck
one along.
Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500


>Washtahay-
>At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>Everybody knows that the Dutch controlled the New York area cast iron
>>industry at one time.
> Often, what "everybody knows" is wrong or irrelevant.  The item in
>question was known as a "dutch oven" prior to the Dutch having much of an
>interest in the iron business.  The term dates back even further, referring
>to a ceramic container the form of which we would all recognize.  The
>earliest foundry-related reference I have found refers to "dutche ovens of
>iryn".
>
>>I do not know what better documentation you could ask for
>>than the documention of the artifacts located at Fort Union during the
time
>>of the rendezvous period of the American mountain men.
> How about written references?  Not opinion, not hearsay, but field notes
>or photographs showing the fragments having been found in a layer
>indicating that they were discarded prior to 1840, or were found in
>association with artifacts used prior to that date but not after.  You
>know, that unpleasant "science" question.
> I sent a letter (still unanswered) to Fort Union asking those questions
>like "What evidence is there regarding the use of cast iron cooking vessels
>at Fort Union prior to 1840?"
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:06:23 +1200
From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish helmet

Would an inverted Spanish helmet make a period correct cooking pot,?? I
seem to remember reading of some Native Americans being found using a
helmet to cook in,
YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships made,Problems shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New Zealand


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:17:13 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

- --=====================_14015298==_.ALT
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Bill,

Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd=
=20
sure like to see the photos.

John...


At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are very much=
 like
>those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the ears and
>bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't
>know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by
>myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along to
>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in and am=
 going
>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you get right=
 down
>to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica guns and many
>other accouterments aren't all that much different.
>Bill C
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
>
>
> >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the previous
> >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain man
> >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was=
 correct.
> >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=
 through
> >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to establish
>that
> >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous today=
 was
> >present.    Barney
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>

- --=====================_14015298==_.ALT
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<font size=3D3>Bill,<br>
<br>
Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's
Dutch ovens are very much like<br>
those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the ears
and<br>
bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? I
don't<br>
know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out
by<br>
myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along
to<br>
something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in and am
going<br>
to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you get right
down<br>
to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica guns and
many<br>
other accouterments aren't all that much different.<br>
Bill C<br>
- -----Original Message-----<br>
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]><br>
To: [e-mail]
<[e-mail]><br>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM<br>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<br>
<br>
<br>
>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the
previous<br>
>discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the mountain
man<br>
>period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today was
correct.<br>
>There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and
through<br>
>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to
establish<br>
that<br>
>the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at Rendezvous
today was<br>
>present.    Barney<br>
><br>
>----------------------<br>
>hist_text list info:
<a href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a><b=
r>
><br>
<br>
<br>
- ----------------------<br>
hist_text list info:
<a href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></=
font></blockquote><br>
<div>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0</div>
<br>
<div>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div>
<div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</div>
<div>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<</div>
<br>
<div><<a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"=
 EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a>></div>
<br>
<div>mail to: <[e-mail]> </div>
</html>

- --=====================_14015298==_.ALT--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:39:11 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed.

- --=====================_16005045==_.ALT
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At 09:27 AM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote:
>No Sir,
>
>The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort Union
>Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in the
>mountain man period.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana

At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:
> > Walt, to date no documentary evidence has been provided that cast iron
> > cookware was present "during the mountain man period at Fort Union".
>
>Aho!
>Longwalker, as I posted earlier this year 2 types of cast iron cookware were
>present during the American Mountain Man era 1825-1840 at Fort Union.  I
>also provided the National Park Service Chief Historian phone number so that
>anyone on the list could verify what I had to say about what my research
>discovered on the subject of the 2 pots of cast iron.


Walt,

I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to
this group.

I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered who you
are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found there, he
referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their best informed
on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey Barnhart, curator as a
possible source of information.  He has no idea about any modern camp oven
cast iron, or what if any information the other two people may have on this
or any other subject, he thinks he suggested you speak to the above people
regarding your supposition.  The other two folks won't be available until
Tuesday, I really don't see where my bothering them with this triviality is
worth wasting their time.

I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp
ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this topic.

The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:

begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...

Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian.

  1. base fragment
  2. rim fragment wedge shape
  3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.
  4. lid fragment with the handle in the center
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post.
Walt
Park City, Montana

end quote 2/29/00 ...

Do I really need to comment further?

At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:
>Everybody knows that the Dutch ...

There is nothing that everybody knows!

I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere
before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked.

John...



- --=====================_16005045==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3><br>
At 09:27 AM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>No Sir,<br>
<br>
The facts have already been established once and for all by the Fort
Union<br>
Trading Post.  Cast iron artifacts of both types were present in
the<br>
mountain man period.<br>
Walt<br>
Park City, Montana</blockquote><br>
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>> Walt, to date no documentary evidence has
been provided that cast iron<br>
> cookware was present "during the mountain man period at Fort
Union".<br>
<br>
Aho!<br>
Longwalker, as I posted earlier this year 2 types of cast iron cookware
were<br>
present during the American Mountain Man era 1825-1840 at Fort
Union.  I<br>
also provided the National Park Service Chief Historian phone number so
that<br>
anyone on the list could verify what I had to say about what my
research<br>
discovered on the subject of the 2 pots of cast iron.</blockquote><br>
<br>
Walt,<br>
<br>
I have just finished reading through every posting you have ever made to
this group.<br>
<br>
I then spoke with Randy Kane of Fort Union.  He barely remembered
who you are and has NO information on any cast iron artifacts found
there, he referred me to Kenneth Hart, Museum Tech who he said is their
best informed on material culture.  He also referenced Audrey
Barnhart, curator as a possible source of information.  He has no
idea about any modern camp oven cast iron, or what if any information the
other two people may have on this or any other subject, he thinks he
suggested you speak to the above people regarding your supposition.
The other two folks won't be available until Tuesday, I really don't see
where my bothering them with this triviality is worth wasting their
time.  <br>
<br>
I have let several of your declarations of the appropriateness of camp
ovens slide by as I am long weary of dealing with you on this
topic.   <br>
<br>
The sum total of your evidence, which is at best attributed to the wrong
person, is repeated here below:<br>
<br>
begin quote 2/29/00 posting ...<br>
<br>
</font><font face="arial" size=2>Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster
and Randy Kane/Historian.<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font face="arial" size=2> 1. base fragment<br>
 2. rim fragment wedge shape<br>
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.  <br>
 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center<br>
These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading
Post.  <br>
Walt<br>
Park City, Montana<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
end quote 2/29/00 ...<br>
<br>
Do I really need to comment further?<br>
<br>
At 12:30 PM 5/27/00 -0600, Walt wrote to LongWalker:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Everybody knows that the Dutch
...</blockquote><br>
There is nothing that everybody knows!<br>
<br>
I have yet to see any credible evidence that camp ovens existed anywhere
before the last half of the nineteenth century.  I've looked.
<br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></html>

- --=====================_16005045==_.ALT--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 07:22:55 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

In a message dated 5/26/00, Pendleton writes:

<< Ya know, I bet if Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in camp he would have fed
 him out of a DUTCH OVEN, and I bet he would have had him on a leash made of
 BRAIDED ARTIFICIAL SINEW, and his collar would have been sewn with DENTAL
 FLOSS. ----------(stuff deleted)----------- >>

Sir,
   I would have to dispute your claim. If Jim Bridger had of had a DOG in
camp he would have eaten it.

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 08:10:43 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mostly at the Paul Revere museum. They also have a web site, but it's a =
bit clunky and limited.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch =
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are =
very much like
        those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the =
ears and
        bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? =
I don't
        know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when =
I'm out by
        myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one =
along to
        something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in =
and am going
        to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you =
get right down
        to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica =
guns and many
        other accouterments aren't all that much different.
        Bill C
        -----Original Message-----
        From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
       =20
       =20
        >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the =
previous
        >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the =
mountain man
        >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today =
was correct.
        >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from =
and through
        >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to =
establish
        that
        >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at =
Rendezvous today was
        >present.    Barney
        >
        >----------------------
        >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
        >
       =20
       =20
        ----------------------
        hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
   =20
   =20
    John T. Kramer, maker of:=20
   =20
   =20
    Kramer's Best Antique Improver
    >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
            >>>As good as old!<<<
   =20
   =20
    <http://www.kramerize.com/>
   =20
   =20
    mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Mostly at the Paul Revere museum. =
They also have=20
a web site, but it's a bit clunky and limited.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
Date:=20
    Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>Where did you find the information on Revere =
and 3=20
    legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the=20
    photos.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you =
wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul=20
        Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like<BR>those in use today. =
True,=20
        there have been changes, such as the ears and<BR>bails, but the =
basic=20
        shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't<BR>know. I =
don't pack=20
        one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by<BR>myself. =
Just=20
        too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along=20
        to<BR>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to =
pack in=20
        and am going<BR>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. =
And=20
        when you get right down<BR>to it, the difference in the old and =
new DOs=20
        and our replica guns and many<BR>other accouterments aren't all =
that=20
        much different.<BR>Bill C<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

        [e-mail] <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
        [e-mail]=20
        <[e-mail]><BR>Date: Saturday, May 27, =
2000=20
        1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 =
15:59:45=20
        -0500<BR><BR><BR>>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior =
moment=20
        <G> but IIRC the previous<BR>>discussion was not =
whether cast=20
        iron was in use during the mountain man<BR>>period, but =
whether the=20
        design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.<BR>>There =
was=20
        definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=20
        through<BR>>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been=20
        presented to establish<BR>that<BR>>the straight-sided, =
three-legged=20
        version so common at Rendezvous today=20
        was<BR>>present.   =20
        Barney<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text =
list info:=20
        <A href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" =
eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR=
><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
        list info: <A =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=20
        eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></FONT></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
    <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: </DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</DIV>
    <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</DIV>
    <DIV>        >>>As good =
as=20
    old!<<<</DIV><BR>
    <DIV><<A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A>></DIV><BR>
    <DIV>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 08:12:20 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John, I think I also have a book (big bugger) on Paul Revere that lists =
this stuff - my mind is getting more holes in it all the time) I will =
try to dig it out and see what I can copy and send. This may take a day =
or two - I'm in the middle of finishing a novel for a publisher and =
getting the next T&LR out.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch =
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are =
very much like
        those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the =
ears and
        bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? =
I don't
        know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when =
I'm out by
        myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one =
along to
        something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in =
and am going
        to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you =
get right down
        to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica =
guns and many
        other accouterments aren't all that much different.
        Bill C
        -----Original Message-----
        From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
       =20
       =20
        >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the =
previous
        >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the =
mountain man
        >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today =
was correct.
        >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from =
and through
        >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to =
establish
        that
        >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at =
Rendezvous today was
        >present.    Barney
        >
        >----------------------
        >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
        >
       =20
       =20
        ----------------------
        hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
   =20
   =20
    John T. Kramer, maker of:=20
   =20
   =20
    Kramer's Best Antique Improver
    >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
            >>>As good as old!<<<
   =20
   =20
    <http://www.kramerize.com/>
   =20
   =20
    mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, I think I also have a book =
(big bugger) on=20
Paul Revere that lists this stuff - my mind is getting more holes in it =
all the=20
time) I will try to dig it out and see what I can copy and send. This =
may take a=20
day or two - I'm in the middle of finishing a novel for a publisher and =
getting=20
the next T&LR out.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
Date:=20
    Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>Where did you find the information on Revere =
and 3=20
    legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the=20
    photos.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you =
wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul=20
        Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like<BR>those in use today. =
True,=20
        there have been changes, such as the ears and<BR>bails, but the =
basic=20
        shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't<BR>know. I =
don't pack=20
        one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by<BR>myself. =
Just=20
        too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along=20
        to<BR>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to =
pack in=20
        and am going<BR>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. =
And=20
        when you get right down<BR>to it, the difference in the old and =
new DOs=20
        and our replica guns and many<BR>other accouterments aren't all =
that=20
        much different.<BR>Bill C<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

        [e-mail] <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
        [e-mail]=20
        <[e-mail]><BR>Date: Saturday, May 27, =
2000=20
        1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 =
15:59:45=20
        -0500<BR><BR><BR>>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior =
moment=20
        <G> but IIRC the previous<BR>>discussion was not =
whether cast=20
        iron was in use during the mountain man<BR>>period, but =
whether the=20
        design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.<BR>>There =
was=20
        definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=20
        through<BR>>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been=20
        presented to establish<BR>that<BR>>the straight-sided, =
three-legged=20
        version so common at Rendezvous today=20
        was<BR>>present.   =20
        Barney<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text =
list info:=20
        <A href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" =
eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR=
><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
        list info: <A =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=20
        eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></FONT></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
    <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: </DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</DIV>
    <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</DIV>
    <DIV>        >>>As good =
as=20
    old!<<<</DIV><BR>
    <DIV><<A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A>></DIV><BR>
    <DIV>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFC87C.71E387E0--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:09:08 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that question. It took me a while to =
remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo about the ovens died =
down I was still scratching my head over it. I had ordered John G. =
Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan and =
it came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it =
anyway. It is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens =
and shows the changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were =
in Michigan in the early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before =
that.
Briefly, here is part of what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby =
went from England to Holland to check out the Dutch casting process in =
which they cast brass vessels in dry sand molds. He went back to England =
and experimented with the process and eventually patented a casting =
process using a better type of molding sand and a process of baking the =
mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting pots and =
shipped them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks =
maybe the name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch =
process for casting metal pots, but others believe it came from the =
Dutch peddlers. Still others believe that the name came from the Dutch =
settlers in Penn. who used similar cast iron pots and kettles.
Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use since the seventh =
century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various =
manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous =
versions. The shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs =
seem the most often changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from =
rounded to flat and from no lip to various shapes.  But the photos he =
includes show the "kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides, =
ears, legs, and bails.=20
This is an interesting book, and, if I remember right, can still be =
obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being in =
widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and =
shape from the one Lodge turns out.

Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp equipment? There is no =
proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it was? =
Probably. Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to =
inventory Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron =
Kettle and then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps.=20

Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. He includes diary =
extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography has documents =
you may never have heard of before and could lead you into many an other =
artifact chase.

Bill C
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
   =20
   =20
    Bill,
   =20
    Where did you find the information on Revere and 3 legged Dutch =
Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the photos.
   =20
    John...
   =20
   =20
    At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
   =20
        Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul Revere's Dutch ovens are =
very much like
        those in use today. True, there have been changes, such as the =
ears and
        bails, but the basic shape is the same. Should we not use them? =
I don't
        know. I don't pack one along to AMM and I don't pack one when =
I'm out by
        myself. Just too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one =
along to
        something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to pack in =
and am going
        to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. And when you =
get right down
        to it, the difference in the old and new DOs and our replica =
guns and many
        other accouterments aren't all that much different.
        Bill C
        -----Original Message-----
        From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
        Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:35 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500
       =20
       =20
        >Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior moment <G> but IIRC the =
previous
        >discussion was not whether cast iron was in use during the =
mountain man
        >period, but whether the design of the dutch ovens we use today =
was correct.
        >There was definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from =
and through
        >Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been presented to =
establish
        that
        >the straight-sided, three-legged version so common at =
Rendezvous today was
        >present.    Barney
        >
        >----------------------
        >hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
        >
       =20
       =20
        ----------------------
        hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
   =20
   =20
    John T. Kramer, maker of:=20
   =20
   =20
    Kramer's Best Antique Improver
    >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
            >>>As good as old!<<<
   =20
   =20
    <http://www.kramerize.com/>
   =20
   =20
    mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that =
question.=20
It took me a while to remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo =
about=20
the ovens died down I was still scratching my head over it. I had =
ordered John=20
G. Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan =
and it=20
came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it =
anyway. It=20
is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens and shows =
the=20
changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were in Michigan in =
the=20
early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before =
that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Briefly, here =
is part of=20
what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby went from England to =
Holland to=20
check out the Dutch casting process in which they cast brass vessels in =
dry sand=20
molds. He went back to England and experimented with the process and =
eventually=20
patented a casting process using a better type of molding sand and a =
process of=20
baking the mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting =
pots and=20
shipped them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks =
maybe the=20
name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch process for =
casting=20
metal pots, but others believe it came from the Dutch peddlers. Still =
others=20
believe that the name came from the Dutch settlers in Penn. who used =
similar=20
cast iron pots and kettles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use =
since the=20
seventh century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various =

manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous =
versions. The=20
shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs seem the most =
often=20
changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from rounded to flat and =
from no=20
lip to various shapes.  But the photos he includes show the=20
"kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides, ears, =
legs, and=20
bails. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is an interesting book, and, if I remember =
right, can=20
still be obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being =
in=20
widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and =
shape=20
from the one Lodge turns out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp =
equipment?=20
There is no proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it =
was?=20
Probably. Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to =

inventory Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron =
Kettle=20
and then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. =
He=20
includes diary extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography =
has=20
documents you may never have heard of before and could lead you into =
many an=20
other artifact chase.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill C</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, May 28, 2000 12:28 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =
Date:=20
    Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>Where did you find the information on Revere =
and 3=20
    legged Dutch Ovens?  I'd sure like to see the=20
    photos.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 10:35 PM 5/27/00 -0600, you =
wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Barney, the photos I've seen of Paul=20
        Revere's Dutch ovens are very much like<BR>those in use today. =
True,=20
        there have been changes, such as the ears and<BR>bails, but the =
basic=20
        shape is the same. Should we not use them? I don't<BR>know. I =
don't pack=20
        one along to AMM and I don't pack one when I'm out by<BR>myself. =
Just=20
        too heavy for light traveling. But I have taken one along=20
        to<BR>something like an NMLRA nationals where I don't have to =
pack in=20
        and am going<BR>to be there for 10 days. Makes cooking a breeze. =
And=20
        when you get right down<BR>to it, the difference in the old and =
new DOs=20
        and our replica guns and many<BR>other accouterments aren't all =
that=20
        much different.<BR>Bill C<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =

        [e-mail] <[e-mail]><BR>To:=20
        [e-mail]=20
        <[e-mail]><BR>Date: Saturday, May 27, =
2000=20
        1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 =
15:59:45=20
        -0500<BR><BR><BR>>Walt, Forgive me if I'm having a senior =
moment=20
        <G> but IIRC the previous<BR>>discussion was not =
whether cast=20
        iron was in use during the mountain man<BR>>period, but =
whether the=20
        design of the dutch ovens we use today was correct.<BR>>There =
was=20
        definitely cast iron pots being made and traded from and=20
        through<BR>>Africa prior to the period, but nothing has been=20
        presented to establish<BR>that<BR>>the straight-sided, =
three-legged=20
        version so common at Rendezvous today=20
        was<BR>>present.   =20
        Barney<BR>><BR>>----------------------<BR>>hist_text =
list info:=20
        <A href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" =
eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>><BR=
><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
        list info: <A =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"=20
        eudora =3D=20
        =
autourl>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></FONT></BL=
OCKQUOTE><BR>
    <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: </DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Kramer's Best Antique Improver</DIV>
    <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<</DIV>
    <DIV>        >>>As good =
as=20
    old!<<<</DIV><BR>
    <DIV><<A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A>></DIV><BR>
    <DIV>mail to: <[e-mail]> =
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

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