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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #565 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, May 29 2000 Volume 01 : Number 565 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "smell powder" -áááááá MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage - last call -áááááá MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500 -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed. -áááááá MtMan-List: Canteens -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "smell powder" -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE HISTORY................interesting gun stuff -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canteens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:54:27 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "smell powder" - --=====================_81059552==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed What's the problem? Lots of folks dipped snuff back then. John... At 08:26 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hallo the List, > >In "Forty Years a Fur Trader", Charles Larpenteur (on page 8) writes; >"....and toward evening he got so drunk himself that he frequently asked me >if I did not want to "smell powder", but as I never felt like smelling powder >as he proposed, I declined, not knowing why he used the expression." > >Now....I may have been born at night,.... but not last night..... so I'm >thinkin he's not referring to black powder! Anyone know of just how wide >spread this was? Selling whiskey to the Injuns sounds honorable.... > >Ymos, >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> - --=====================_81059552==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> What's the problem? Lots of folks dipped snuff back then. John... At 08:26 PM 5/28/00 -0400, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite cite>Hallo the List, In "Forty Years a Fur Trader", Charles Larpenteur (on page 8) writes; "....and toward evening he got so drunk himself that he frequently asked me if I did not want to "smell powder", but as I never felt like smelling powder as he proposed, I declined, not knowing why he used the expression." Now....I may have been born at night,.... but not last night..... so I'm thinkin he's not referring to black powder! Anyone know of just how wide spread this was? Selling whiskey to the Injuns sounds honorable.... Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html" eudora="autourl">http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</a></blockquote> <div>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.</div> John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> </html> - --=====================_81059552==_.ALT-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 21:53:21 -0400 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Powderhorn as airline baggage - last call So there's the straight scoop from the guy who's butt is in the saddle. No better source for facts. Thanks, and if no one objects I make a motion this topic be closed. Tom SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > I've been following this line for a while, and being an air line pilot, I do > have an interest. Black powder is NOT, as most know, allowed on passenger > flights. Your powder horn, very empty, is, and I'd suggest using air pressure > to blow the inside of the horn clean. You only get to blow the tail, or > belly, off an airplane once.... so buy your black powder at your destination. > > Most have by now, heard of the brain dead woman from Alaska that put a loaded > hand gun in her checked baggage and blew a hole through a perfectly good > plane.... that kinda stuff scares me.... > > Ymos, > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:09:45 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins Hello in the camp Looks like a lot of you weren't able to get out this weekend. I sure had a lot of mail piled up. Just got back from our depredation trapping camp on the Henry's Fork of the Snake River. Our camp was no more then a quarter mile from the site of the 1810 Fort Henry. Three Rocks were found at this site in the 1920s one read "Fort Henry" the other two read 'Gov. Camp H. Well 1811" and "Al the cook with nothing to cook." Seems them boys did not fair as will as we did. Must have been a hard winter that year or something. Cause there sure is a lot of game in these River bottoms now! Friday Mike Powell, Bill Varga, and I got our camp set up and six traps in the water by night fall. Allen Hall show up shortly there after just in time for dinner. The man does have a nose for food. Next morning we had three traps sprung two with peace's parts left in them. We adjusted our traps by lowering the pans witch would help to get more of the foot in the trap. Reset them and put six more traps in the water. Then head out for Falls River where we had an another trapping spot lined up. On the way Bill spotted a Camas field and all hands went to work gathering dinner. We later stem baked them with Plantain leaves warped around them that we gathered at camp. We also stop at Camp Henry where Henry and the other half of his men wintered. Here more rocks were found and two of them still are at the site one is marked "Camp Henry Sept. 1810 "and the other has "LC" on it there was two other rocks found in the area. One has all the men's names on it that stayed at Camp Henry it and the others from Fort Henry are now in Boise in the museum there. We set six more traps on the Falls River and went back to camp. This morning Allen found a big beaver in one of the traps Mike and him had set. Mike and Bill stayed in camp to take care of it. While Allen and I went to Falls River to check those traps. We found a Beaver in one of the traps and a raccoon in another one of the traps that Bill and I had set. I could go on and on about this camp and what we seen and did but not here and now. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 06:15:58 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:45 -0500 - --=====================_118505069==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bill, I appreciate your review of Ragsdale, the only other postings on his book I thought mentioned no source references for his conclusions, hence I had not made acquiring his publication a priority. Frankly I had considered it a book he wrote to help sell his cookbooks to tourists. I have been searching numerous other sources and find it curious that Ragsdale is the only reference anyone can find. I can find cast iron waffle irons, several variants of a few general styles of cast cook pots, porringers, mortars, tea kettles, trivets, andirons, and lots more; I can't find any early examples or evidence of camp ovens. It is evident once you start looking that the abundant wide variety and high quality cast iron didn't happen until the last half of the nineteenth century. The mention of a dutch oven in literature or journals is of no value to determining if something looks like a camp oven nor even whether or not that something is made of cast iron. Unless the reference is specific as to type and construction it isn't relevant -- as we've previously determined that there are at least three possible valid and distinct definitions for the term "dutch oven" during our period of interest, at least two of which have nothing to do with cast iron. I have spent about half of today searching again for something concrete that states Paul Revere designed what I refer to as a modern camp oven. Everything is qualified as legend or references back to Ragsdale. I can find no confirming information that does not point to Ragsdale, or attribute it to legend. I cannot identify the source of the legend, or can I? I can find plenty about Revere's foundry which mention nails, bolts, bells and cannon barrels among other items, nothing about cast iron pots or cookware of any description. He is noted for his rolling mill and production of sheet copper. You're right the Revere House web site is very disjointed. I have no recollection of anything regarding cast iron when I visited Revere's house. I found a lot of other information on Revere in other locations. (Thanks for the Google tip Lanney) Nothing I've found yet is better than wash day gossip about old Paul and dutch ovens. Modern Revereware alludes to his sheet copper mill and its success. It is the only thing other than his silver work which seems to have anything to do with Paul Revere food and cooking that I can find. As early examples of many other styles of pots, kettles and other goods remain fairly common for their age it is curious none seem to exist for the early camp oven anywhere but in Ragsdale's book. I own the closest thing I've seen and it shows no evidence of ever having had a lid. See photo I posted of my cast three legged skillet; along with the discussion of sprue marks, as indicators of age, in the previous thread on this subject. As the previous discussions were ending I added the book "Antique Iron, Survey of American and English forms, fifteeenth through nineteenth centuries" by Herbert, Peter, and Nancy Schiffer; instead of Ragsdale; to my collection. I am happy to hear he has source references so maybe I'll get a copy and see if I can figure out how he came to his conclusions. The Schiffers showed everything but... In again reviewing the 2 dozen or so volumes I have at hand, which deal with a variety of metal and or kitchen goods of the period, in addition to many hours searching other sources, I haven't yet found separate confirmation of the mere existence of the camp oven form prior to 1840 or 50. If they were "widespread" in 1804 it seems like there ought to be a few left. As they are so legendary why aren't the books on kitchen and metal antiques replete with examples? They show examples of nearly everything else little of which approaches widespread name recognition or the legendary status of a "camp/dutch oven"? I am suspicious of Ragsdale because I can't find confirmation. His wouldn't be the first book of hyperbolae. I think its called effective marketing. John... You can get Idaho potatoes from Idaho, Key lime pie in the Keys, hamburgers in Hamburg, KC barbecue in KC, NY strips in NY, Buffalo wings in Buffalo and Philly steak in Philadelphia, you can't get baked beans in the restaurants of Boston. Don't you think that's curious for a place called bean town? At 09:09 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote: >John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that question. It took me a while to >remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo about the ovens died >down I was still scratching my head over it. I had ordered John G. >Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan and it >came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it >anyway. It is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens and >shows the changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were in >Michigan in the early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before that. >Briefly, here is part of what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby >went from England to Holland to check out the Dutch casting process in >which they cast brass vessels in dry sand molds. He went back to England >and experimented with the process and eventually patented a casting >process using a better type of molding sand and a process of baking the >mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting pots and shipped >them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks maybe the >name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch process for >casting metal pots, but others believe it came from the Dutch peddlers. >Still others believe that the name came from the Dutch settlers in Penn. >who used similar cast iron pots and kettles. >Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use since the seventh >century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various >manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous >versions. The shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs >seem the most often changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from >rounded to flat and from no lip to various shapes. But the photos he >includes show the "kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides, >ears, legs, and bails. >This is an interesting book, and, if I remember right, can still be >obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being in >widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and >shape from the one Lodge turns out. > >Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp equipment? There is no >proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it was? Probably. >Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to inventory >Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron Kettle and >then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps. > >Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. He includes diary >extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography has documents you >may never have heard of before and could lead you into many an other >artifact chase. > >Bill C ___________________________________ If Microsoft was plumbing -- it wouldn't pass code. - --=====================_118505069==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> Bill, I appreciate your review of Ragsdale, the only other postings on his book I thought mentioned no source references for his conclusions, hence I had not made acquiring his publication a priority. Frankly I had considered it a book he wrote to help sell his cookbooks to tourists. I have been searching numerous other sources and find it curious that Ragsdale is the only reference anyone can find. I can find cast iron waffle irons, several variants of a few general styles of cast cook pots, porringers, mortars, tea kettles, trivets, andirons, and lots more; I can't find any early examples or evidence of camp ovens. It is evident once you start looking that the abundant wide variety and high quality cast iron didn't happen until the last half of the nineteenth century. The mention of a dutch oven in literature or journals is of no value to determining if something looks like a camp oven nor even whether or not that something is made of cast iron. Unless the reference is specific as to type and construction it isn't relevant -- as we've previously determined that there are at least three possible valid and distinct definitions for the term "dutch oven" during our period of interest, at least two of which have nothing to do with cast iron. I have spent about half of today searching again for something concrete that states Paul Revere designed what I refer to as a modern camp oven. Everything is qualified as legend or references back to Ragsdale. I can find no confirming information that does not point to Ragsdale, or attribute it to legend. I cannot identify the source of the legend, or can I? I can find plenty about Revere's foundry which mention nails, bolts, bells and cannon barrels among other items, nothing about cast iron pots or cookware of any description. He is noted for his rolling mill and production of sheet copper. You're right the Revere House web site is very disjointed. I have no recollection of anything regarding cast iron when I visited Revere's house. I found a lot of other information on Revere in other locations. (Thanks for the Google tip Lanney) Nothing I've found yet is better than wash day gossip about old Paul and dutch ovens. Modern Revereware alludes to his sheet copper mill and its success. It is the only thing other than his silver work which seems to have anything to do with Paul Revere food and cooking that I can find. As early examples of many other styles of pots, kettles and other goods remain fairly common for their age it is curious none seem to exist for the early camp oven anywhere but in Ragsdale's book. I own the closest thing I've seen and it shows no evidence of ever having had a lid. See photo I posted of my cast three legged skillet; along with the discussion of sprue marks, as indicators of age, in the previous thread on this subject. As the previous discussions were ending I added the book "Antique Iron, Survey of American and English forms, fifteeenth through nineteenth centuries" by Herbert, Peter, and Nancy Schiffer; instead of Ragsdale; to my collection. I am happy to hear he has source references so maybe I'll get a copy and see if I can figure out how he came to his conclusions. The Schiffers showed everything but... In again reviewing the 2 dozen or so volumes I have at hand, which deal with a variety of metal and or kitchen goods of the period, in addition to many hours searching other sources, I haven't yet found separate confirmation of the mere existence of the camp oven form prior to 1840 or 50. If they were "widespread" in 1804 it seems like there ought to be a few left. As they are so legendary why aren't the books on kitchen and metal antiques replete with examples? They show examples of nearly everything else little of which approaches widespread name recognition or the legendary status of a "camp/dutch oven"? I am suspicious of Ragsdale because I can't find confirmation. His wouldn't be the first book of hyperbolae. I think its called effective marketing. John... You can get Idaho potatoes from Idaho, Key lime pie in the Keys, hamburgers in Hamburg, KC barbecue in KC, NY strips in NY, Buffalo wings in Buffalo and Philly steak in Philadelphia, you can't get baked beans in the restaurants of Boston. Don't you think that's curious for a place called bean town? At 09:09 AM 5/28/00 -0600, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite cite>John, I'm sort'a glad you asked that question. It took me a while to remember what I looked at. When all the hullabaloo about the ovens died down I was still scratching my head over it. I had ordered John G. Ragsdale's book, Dutch Ovens Chronicled, through interlibrary loan and it came in after everyone quit arguing about the things. Well, I read it anyway. It is quite a book, has lots of photos of original Dutch ovens and shows the changes that have taken place. Many of what he shows were in Michigan in the early 1800s, as well as in the "Colonies," before that. Briefly, here is part of what he says: In 1704 a man named Abraham Darby went from England to Holland to check out the Dutch casting process in which they cast brass vessels in dry sand molds. He went back to England and experimented with the process and eventually patented a casting process using a better type of molding sand and a process of baking the mold to improve casting smoothness. He then began casting pots and shipped them to the Colonies and the rest of the world. Darby thinks maybe the name Dutch Oven may have dreived from the original Dutch process for casting metal pots, but others believe it came from the Dutch peddlers. Still others believe that the name came from the Dutch settlers in Penn. who used similar cast iron pots and kettles. Ragsdale says that cast metal pots have been in use since the seventh century. The oven of today has evolved over the years as various manufacturers made refinements and improvements over the previous versions. The shape of the ears and the length and thickness of the legs seem the most often changed. The lid also has seen changes ranging from rounded to flat and from no lip to various shapes. But the photos he includes show the "kettle" as it was often called, with slanted sides, ears, legs, and bails. This is an interesting book, and, if I remember right, can still be obtained. I seem to recall many references to Dutch ovens being in widespread use in 1804, and certainly not much different in material and shape from the one Lodge turns out. Did the mountain men use it as part of their camp equipment? There is no proof of it. Was it around - would they have known what it was? Probably. Was it at rendezvous? Again, no proof, unless someone wants to inventory Stewart's gear and see if they can find a reference to an iron Kettle and then argue that point. Was it at some of the forts? Perhaps. Anyway, you might want to check out Ragsdale's book. He includes diary extracts that are interesting and fun. His bibliography has documents you may never have heard of before and could lead you into many an other artifact chase. Bill C</blockquote> <div>___________________________________</div> <div>If Microsoft was plumbing -- it wouldn't pass code.</div> </html> - --=====================_118505069==_.ALT-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:48:05 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Your FACTS cannot be confirmed. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFC94A.9AF3E020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My apologies to John Funk, I was also advised that The Fort Union Trading Post had the capability of recycling iron. I have seen the term ômodern camp ovenö used in a 30-year-old book stating the same reasonùto distinguish from others. I do not have that book. I will contact the National Park Service Chief Historian again and repost the information as I get it from his employees for the second time. This is a very busy time of the year for our North Dakota friends on the border of Montana. The September event will be coming up after the June reenactment on the Little Big Horn, the July Quiet Camp Rendez-vous near Laurel and the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous in August, which you have attended. Tourists are running strong and in great numbers. In the meantime have a great Memorial Day. Walt Walt, This is John Kramer not John Funk. When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast iron" artifacts of which he had no knowledge. I read him the information as you posted it. He had no recollection. The "modern camp oven" is my term used to distinguish those from all the other possible cast iron pots. The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of The American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a camp oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom. A fairly common old style pot. John... - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFC94A.9AF3E020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"> <link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml@01BFC94A.986E6DC0">  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> My = apologies to John Funk,<o:p></o:p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> I = was also advised that The Fort Union Trading Post had the capability of recycling = iron. I have seen the term = “modern camp oven” used in a 30-year-old book stating the same reason—to distinguish = from others. I do not have that book. I will contact the National = Park Service Chief Historian again and repost the information as I get it = from his employees for the second time. This is a very busy time of the year for our North Dakota friends = on the border of Montana. The = September event will be coming up after the June reenactment on the Little Big = Horn, the July Quiet Camp Rendez-vous near Laurel and the Red Lodge Mountain Man = Rendezvous in August, which you have attended. Tourists are running strong and in great numbers. In the meantime have a great = Memorial Day.<o:p></o:p></= p> Walt<o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> <![if = !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></= p> Walt, This is John Kramer not John Funk. When I spoke with your source, Randy Kane, I asked about "cast = iron" artifacts of which he had no knowledge. I read him the information = as you posted it. He had no recollection. The "modern camp oven" is my term used to distinguish = those from all the other possible cast iron pots. The 3 legged pot, pictured on page 90 of The Collectors Encyclopedia of = The American Revolution, looks to be much deeper than what we consider a = camp oven and also would appear to have a rounded bottom. A fairly common = old style pot. John... <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> </div> </body> </html> - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFC94A.9AF3E020-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:45:00 -0400 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Canteens In between projects I've wandered through the archives and came across a topic of interest. I thought I would raise this again to see if there's any new thinking. In the "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." there is a listing for (9) India Rubber Canteens and (28) iron bound canteens. There's not much other reference, which causes me to speculate (as did earlier list members) that carrying water was just not that important to these fellows, who probably stayed very close to what was an abundant supply of (then) very clean water. It is our modern outdoor experiences and training and logic which dictates that we carry some device for containing drinking water. Given we make this choice, the next question is what shall this device be to remain as correct as possible, and I suggest that gourds and bottles would be a lesser choice due to their fragility. One would then default to either the military copper canteen or a hooped wooden canteen (am I correct to assume this is the "iron bound canteen" in the ledger??). Or is their another option not considered? Skins or bladders are certainly viable but do not really meet the "durability" test. Your thoughts? Tom - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:47:48 PDT From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waugh! For Mountain Doins Crazy, Was curious if you were using a front foot, or rear foot set?? I would imagine a front foot, if the trap was shallow enough for a coon to get in. Also, I received a mailing fron the Museum of the Mountain, with a photo of you and "Mountain Man Ken." You and the others did a fine job, and I would like to express my personal thanks. I will be visitmg the museum sometimes around July 17th and look forward to seeing the rest of the exhibit. Green with envy, Cliff ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:51:28 PDT From: "Chance Tiffie" <bossloper@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "smell powder" I was under the impression that this type of snuff was inhaled, and was a more gentlemanly method. A fellow AMM brother uses snuff that way here in Oklahoma. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:18:23 -0700 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: NOT FUR TRADE HISTORY................interesting gun stuff This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFC978.BF8FE400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 just a little information that could be interesting to you!!!!! >>> Learn from the mistakes of others ... >>> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were >>> forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be >>> destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500 = million >>> dollars. >>> And now the results are in: >>> >>> Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; >>> Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; >>> Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 = percent). >>> In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 >>> percent. Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady >>> decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in = the past >>> 12 months). There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults >>> of >>> the elderly. >>> >>> Australian politicians are on the spot and at a >>> loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed >>> after such monumental effort and expense was successfully >>> expended in "ridding society of guns." >>> >>> Bet you won't see this data on the evening news or hear your governor or >>> members of the state Assembly disseminating this information. = It's time >to >>> state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and >>> property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding citizens. >>> Take note, Californians and other Americans, before it's >>> too late! >>> PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST! >>> > >> - ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFC978.BF8FE400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#c8e0d8> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just a little information that could be = interesting to=20 you!!!!! >>> Learn from the mistakes of others=20 ... >>>=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> It has now been = 12=20 months since gun owners in Australia were >>> = forced=20 to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be >>> = destroyed,=20 a program costing the government more than $500 = million >>>=20 dollars. >>> And now the results are=20 in: >>> >>> Australia-wide, = homicides are=20 up 3.2 percent; >>> Australia-wide, assaults are up = 8.6=20 percent; >>> Australia-wide, armed robberies are up = 44=20 percent (yes, 44 percent). >>> In the state of = Victoria,=20 homicides with firearms are up 300 >>> percent. = Figures over=20 the previous 25 years show a steady >>> decrease in = armed=20 robbery with firearms (changed drastically in=20 the past >>> 12 months). There has been a = dramatic=20 increase in break-ins and assaults >>>=20 of >>> the=20 elderly. >>> >>> Australian = politicians=20 are on the spot and at a >>> loss to explain how no=20 improvement in "safety" has been observed >>> after = such=20 monumental effort and expense was = successfully >>> =20 expended in "ridding society of=20 guns." >>> >>> Bet you won't see = this data=20 on the evening news or hear = your governor or >>>=20 members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.=20 It's time >to >>> state it plainly: = Guns in=20 the hands of honest citizens save lives and >>> = property=20 and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the=20 law-abiding citizens. >>> Take note, = Californians=20 and other Americans, before it's >>> too=20 late! >>> PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL=20 LIST! >>> >=20 >> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BFC978.BF8FE400-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:18:56 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens Tom, As you have already found, canteens are real hard to document. This seems to be one area where we have to improvise since our forefathers didn't have to deal with polluted water and livestock born parasites. The wooden stave, iron bound canteens are durable but don't hold much and are rather awkward to carry. I haven't had any first hand experience with the copper canteens but others have not been very satisfied with them. A very good alternative are the British Military canteens available in Army Surplus stores. They hold about a quart, and are enameled in side and out. We cover them with leather and cut the enamel off the outside of the neck. They are very durable and water doesn't taste terrible out of them. Plus since they are enameled inside you don't have to worry too much about corrosion on the inside. They work real well for us. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Monday, May 29, 2000 10:45 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Canteens In between projects I've wandered through the archives and came across a topic of interest. I thought I would raise this again to see if there's any new thinking. In the "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." there is a listing for (9) India Rubber Canteens and (28) iron bound canteens. There's not much other reference, which causes me to speculate (as did earlier list members) that carrying water was just not that important to these fellows, who probably stayed very close to what was an abundant supply of (then) very clean water. It is our modern outdoor experiences and training and logic which dictates that we carry some device for containing drinking water. Given we make this choice, the next question is what shall this device be to remain as correct as possible, and I suggest that gourds and bottles would be a lesser choice due to their fragility. One would then default to either the military copper canteen or a hooped wooden canteen (am I correct to assume this is the "iron bound canteen" in the ledger??). Or is their another option not considered? Skins or bladders are certainly viable but do not really meet the "durability" test. Your thoughts? Tom - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #565 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.