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hist_text-digest        Thursday, May 25 2000        Volume 01 : Number 559



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: lymes disease
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
-áááááá MtMan-List: dental floss
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
-áááááá MtMan-List: re-supply
-áááááá MtMan-List: Trapper Cabins
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Spelling Mountain correctly
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spelling Mountain correctly
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
-áááááá MtMan-List: salt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: salt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:07:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lymes disease

There is a vaccine for lymes disease now.  Ask your Doctor.

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:00:44 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.

I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and dripped
off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There was a
blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the stuff in my
medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't find its'
way to my possibles bag.



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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:17:22 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: dental floss

    I had always  believed dental floss was simply waxed cotton.  In the
past I have used it as emergency repair thread on my period clothes.
    With the discussion I tested a piece and it melted just like nylon. I am
sure it is synthetic, probably nylon but certainly not a natural fiber.
Frank


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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:43:12 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)

longwalker

the info that i presented was only a starting point or rough estimate and
yes a person can go lighter or heavier---just involved the amount of
security and creature comforts and such---I personally feel that my
numbers were high---but i was working on the assumption of being out a
year or more---with an emphasis on more---one of the things that i dont
agree with you on is the salt thing---to me that is very inportant more
for cureing meat while in the drying process and also other
things------kill a deer or bear or elk or whatever---if you cant store
the meat it's gone and spoiled in a few days---remember the amount of
flys in that area---and i am sure you know about the bees---they like
fresh meat also if it is not salted---smokeing helps but is not the total
answer to me------still have to do something with the meat air drying is
good but will mold and spoil if you dont use salt or other perservative
in my estimation---basic load of traps for the trapper was only six
traps---I throwed in the 1 1/2 for small critters---just because of my
own preferences---traps cost more than the powder or the other things in
the inventory in that time  of history---6 traps cost as much as a rifle
in that time span---(that is something we need to look at ---what was the
cost of the traps in that period of history---@ st louis and at the
mountains---what if the MM needed more traps due to loss or breakage---I
have had big critters tear a small trap up on me when i was doing that
sort of thing---

I believe we both are on the same point of thought and pondering that it
takes about 2 horses for each MM while in the wilds---again I was just
trying to throw out a rough estimate glad you thought about it also and
we concur on many of the points---again---I like the extra comfort of the
extra powder and supplies---I also believe that most of the MM didnt
always dig a casha---they used caves and other natural places for storage
that were semi protected from the elements---in my part of the world
there is lots of bluffs and rock outcrops and people used them to stay in
the dry during bad weather---several places along the white river that
people have lived for several hundred years ---Ie the
natives---indians---wouldnt require the need for a shelter---there is
good examples of this in the western areas also---I have a big bluff line
on some of my property that you find bunches of arrow heads and such
there because the natives lived there and stored their stuff in that
area---you find a lot of stone walls up next to the bluffs which are
plastered with dirt or clay and it is dry as a bone inside this area
because of the overhang and such---also in caves the temperature will
stay about 55 degrees year around---winter and summer---less need for
fires except to cook if they didnt eat the meat raw or dried---in my home
area there is lots of oak trees that have acorns---several that can be
ground into a paste and a meal  made from it---the Osage call it "sweet
meat of the strong tree" also near the rivers they used fish traps made
out of wood to catch and hold fish---or dig small ponds near the edge of
the river which fill with water and they could put the live fish in and
hold them for a later time---the suckers come up streem a couple of times
a year and were cought by hand and put into these holding ponds and didnt
require smoking or preserving that way---they would also nuddel catfish
and put them in these holding ponds for future usage---the only time
there was a lot of worry was in the spring of the year during the high
water time when these small ponds were overflowed---and hopefully the
fish stayed in the deeper ponds---

lots of things to think about thats for sure---I know if it was me and i
was in the mountains I sure wouldnt want to not be able to store or keep
provisions for later dates and the winter time "time of the starving
moon"

so i guess the salt thing was important in my estimation as the indians
seemed to cherrish the salt licks or areas wher the natural salt could be
obtained and would load their horses and travoices down with it for
future usage---


lots of stuff to ponder when thinking about what the mountain man and the
native american would do to survive for the total time of more than one
year in the wilderness---forethought and planning were important for
survival---I feel that things that could be broken or lost that they
would to have at least one spare handy---that was why i used the high
number for steels and knives---those were important to me---could do
without the gun but the knife and fire steel to me would make the
difference in true survival---look at the high quantities on the listings
of skinner knives that were taken to the roo's always several dozen and 6
is not excessive due to loss and breakage---

gads bud have i run off at the computer keyboard---and I as you sit and
ponder these things and try to come to some sence of fact and
reality---hope you understand my thought pattern on this subject---

this i humbly submit---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:48:10 PDT
From: "Chance Tiffie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: re-supply

Early on, the re-supply situation was difficult, but in the latter years
there was several places a man could outfit himself throughout the year.
Beaver were brought in a few at a time to exchange for goods at posts such
as Ft. Hall, rather than waiting for the annual rendezvous.
As for pulling your load an reloading a fresh one; the tarrifs(sp) at  Ft.
Hall allowed several days before re-loading.  I will read back to find out
how many exactly, as I have aroused my own curiosity.  Was this standard??
Who knows, but Wyeth tried to run a tight ship.

Cliff Tiffie
PO Box 5089
Durant, OK
74702
580-924-4187
- ---------------------
Aux Aliments de Pays!

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:54:23 -0600
From: "Noel Harlan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trapper Cabins

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Mouton Man Scholars,

I believe I have photographed the remains of a trappers cabin in the San =
Juan Mountains of Colorado. Somewhere I read a description of such a =
cabin.

If anyone knows where (a book) I got that description I would be =
immensely grateful.

Noel Harlan

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<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mouton Man Scholars,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I believe I have photographed the remains of a =
trappers cabin=20
in the San Juan Mountains of Colorado. Somewhere I read a description of =
such a=20
cabin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If anyone knows where (a book) I got that =
description I would=20
be immensely grateful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Noel Harlan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:06:33 -0500
From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

Your are right with the floss, sorry. The floss I have was made from line=
n. I
got some along time ago. Did not realize the new stuff was not. thanks fo=
r the
infor. my mistake!!!!

"Paul W. Jones" wrote:

> Don:
>
> Why is the reponse wrong?  Are you still maintaining that dental floss =
is
> made from a natural fiber?  Some perhaps, although I have not found it.=
  Was
> at the pharmacy yesterday and stopped and perused the dental floss.  Ea=
ch
> and every brand on the shelf listed synthetic materials.
>
> Could you explain, or do I misunderstand your response.
>
> Regards,  Paul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:07 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?
>
> wrong.......nice try..........
>
> Ron Chamberlain wrote:
>
> > Taken from http://www.dentaldigest.com/perio/floss.html
> > Ain't technology wonderful!
> >
> > COLGATE=AE TOTAL=AE Colgate
> > Description: A state-of-the-art, low-friction, Teflon=AE fiber ......
> >
> > Glide=AE Floss W.L. Gore & Associates
> > Description: Made from expanded PTFE (polytetrafluorethylene), ......
> >
> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS Johnson & Johnson Description: Nylon=
 dental
> > floss ......
> >
> > JOHNSON & JOHNSON REACH=AE FLOSS EASY SLIDE=AE Johnson & Johnson
> > Description: Made of patented PTFE material ....
> >
> > PHB PERIO-FLOSS PHB, Inc.
> > Description: A USA-made acrylic yarn floss .....
> >
> > WISDOM DENTAL FLOSS Wisdom Toothbrush Co.
> > Description: Features 840 denier nylon strands. .....
> >
> > Wher'd you come up with linen???
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Really?  Is Dental Floss really Linen?  No kiddin'?  I always just
> assumed
> > it
> > > was some sort of space-age nylon or something.
> > > Where can I  find out for sure?
> > > Rick
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.ht=
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>
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:08:00 -0500
From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.

how about sinew, what is it made of know?

[e-mail] wrote:

> I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and dripped
> off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There was a
> blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the stuff in my
> medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't find its'
> way to my possibles bag.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:10:30 -0500
From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

did the mtnman use a computer also?

D Miles wrote:

> > wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
> > sterile.....................
>
> I melted some of the 3 types we have here.. All three melted into a hard
> nylon ball, not a wax type melt.  And as an earlier post from Ron pointed
> out, the manufacturers says it is made from nylon, PTFE, acrylic yarn &
> teflon fiber of all things!... If you believe the word of an "Old
> Buckskinner" on all subjects.. I gots some beach property fer ya!<G>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:03:06 -0600
From: "Noel Harlan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spelling Mountain correctly

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Mountain Man Scholars,

I did not realize I misspelled mountain. What a way to start!
I apologize heartily.

Noel Harlan

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mountain Man Scholars,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I did not realize I misspelled mountain. What a way =
to=20
start!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I apologize heartily.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Noel Harlan</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:21:57 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spelling Mountain correctly

In a message dated 5/25/00 11:01:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Mountain Man Scholars,

woooooohoooooooooo, now we're elitist bastard scholars! danged if we dont
just get better every day <GGG>    Thanks Noel.          Barney

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:14:50 -0500
From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?

D Miles wrote:

> > wrong. it melts because of the wax in it, and it is
> > sterile.....................
>
> I melted some of the 3 types we have here.. All three melted into a hard
> nylon ball, not a wax type melt.  And as an earlier post from Ron pointed
> out, the manufacturers says it is made from nylon, PTFE, acrylic yarn &
> teflon fiber of all things!... If you believe the word of an "Old
> Buckskinner" on all subjects.. I gots some beach property fer ya!<G>
> D
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:06:34 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.

Don,

Sinew is still made the same way that is has been for the last several
million years. It grows on the backs and legs of animals that have muscles
attached to bone.

Now ARTIFICIAL sinew is a different story. It's just basically FAT dental
floss.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    don neighbors [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:08 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.
>
> how about sinew, what is it made of know?
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and
> dripped
> > off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There
> was a
> > blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the
> stuff in my
> > medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't
> find its'
> > way to my possibles bag.
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:01:39 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.

Washtahay-
At 02:08 PM 5/25/00 -0500, you wrote:
>how about sinew, what is it made of know?
    Primarily proteins, if I recall correctly.
LongWalker c. du B.



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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:22:21 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

[e-mail] writes:
> did the mtnman use a computer also?

Yeah, It was called an abacus.

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:30:06 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?


> [e-mail] writes:
> > did the mtnman use a computer also?
>
> Yeah, It was called an abacus.

The successful ones also had a pretty powerful PC that they carried around
on their shoulders. It is stil in common use to this day by many, though not
all.




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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:45:45 -0400
From: "D Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

> also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?


Trust, but verify.Before you spout something as fact... I know some old
graybeards that have been good friends for years that if they told me the
grass was green I would look first before I repeated it.
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:56:42 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)

Fellers,
You guys are making me think...which is dang hard to do!  I seem to recall that
Kit Carson recorded as having said something about not having any salt  while in
the mountains, and also something about not having had any bread for years at a
time.  Osborne Russell records the natives taking salt out of the deposits in
Salt River that runs thru Star Valley Wyoming.  Any of you local Wyoming fellers
been to those salt deposits; are they still there?

On more of a practical first-hand note:  You can cut the meat of entire large
animals into strips and hang it to dry.  In the dry western mountains a sort of
skin forms almost immediately on such meat, and flies are not able to get their
little eggs laid.  No salt needed.  It takes a day or two to dry complete
depending on conditions.  Good, yes!  Tasty, not really...but pretty good in
stew ifn' ya got some salt!

I don't think the old time mountain men spent lots of their time drying meat
unless they knew they were going to face starvin' times.  But then, like I said,
I don't think a lot cause it's too hard to do.

Rick



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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:38:23 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver trapping/Dental Floss?

On Thu, 25 May 2000 15:14:50 -0500 don neighbors <[e-mail]>
writes:
> also should I not believe the word of Sid Davis or Pappy Horn?

boy did you pick a pair of aces to draw to---usto run with those two at
OKAY Valley and friendship and such---Pappy was one of my sponsers and
sid usto always go to most of the roo's in the st louis area---had a
white fox skin on the door of his lodge---pappy built my northwest gun
and won the northwest gun match with it at friendship the year he made
it---

if you cross their sign tell them hi for me---do you have a e-mail for
either---dan anderson has a e-mail address got it if you need it---

YMHOSANT
   =+=
HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:14:17 -0600
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: salt

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Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think

it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitely
not
the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.
                                                mike.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think
<br>it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
<br>seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
<br>there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
<br>had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
<br>gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitely
not
<br>the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.
<br>
mike.
<p> <a href="http:/home.earthlink.net/~amm1616">http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616</a></html>

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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:33:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: salt

  I have heard that the Indian did not use, nor like the taste of, salt.

  The words for salt in Indian Sign Language are  WHITE POWDER TASTES BAD.

   The Indians, however, liked sugar.  Sugar in Indian Sign is WHITE POWDER
TASTES GOOD (a very long good).

    I understand that one of the things that Sacagawea gave her brother, upon
meeting him on the journey, was a lump of sugar.

    Tom Orr


 Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think

 it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
 seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
 there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
 had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
 gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitely
 not
 the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.
                                                 mike.

  http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

 --------------------
 <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">

 Salt was a welcome thing on the frontier. But, it was expensive. I think

 it was Larpentuer who said he had his salt and pepper in one bag for
 seasoning and he felt his wages barely paid for the salt. It the west,
 there were places to get salt other than trading posts. South Park
 had two ro three areas on the south side which both Indians and whites
 gathered it. Don't know though, what the quality of it was. Definitelynot
 the pure white, small, iodidized that we have today.


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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:10:53 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.

I ain't goin there again.  <G>
LP
- -----Original Message-----
From: don neighbors <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Home Experiment Results: Dental Floss.


how about sinew, what is it made of know?

[e-mail] wrote:

> I lit a match and held the floss above the flame.  The stuff seared and
dripped
> off like nylon parachute cord does when you fire-whip the ends.  There was
a
> blob of melted material after I blew out the end.  Anyhow guys, the stuff
in my
> medicine cabinet sure wasn't anything like linen, and probably won't find
its'
> way to my possibles bag.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:49:27 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements)

Washtahay-
At 12:43 PM 5/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
>the info that i presented was only a starting point or rough estimate and
>yes a person can go lighter or heavier---
    yeah, I just wanted to set out another perspective.  This is speculation
and opinion on both our parts, but it might show some folks different
thoughts on the subject.

>one of the things that i dont
>agree with you on is the salt thing---to me that is very inportant more
>for cureing meat while in the drying process and also other
>things-----<snip>still have to do something with the meat air drying is
>good but will mold and spoil if you dont use salt or other perservative
>in my estimation---
    Don't know about that--I figure meat was dried by Indians without using
salt for an awful ong time.  I've always preferred to avoid it, and have
never felt it was necessary for long-term preservation of meat.  I've still
got a bit of dried meat on hand from '98 that is fine.
    When you bone out the animal and unroll the muscle groups into sheets,
then dry it (with or without smoking it) it will usually only mold at the
ends.  I've always thought it was about right when it weems you could grind
an edge on it and use it for a knife.  At that stage of dryness it won't
mold at all.
    (Flies can be kept away with an application of pepper to the meat.  One
time I used some dried jalapeno seeds, they worked OK but I don't recommend
using meat dried in such a way for use in pemmican--DAMHIKT.)
    Long-term storage of meat should ideally be in the form of pemmican, as
the grease will further preserve the meat.

>basic load of traps for the trapper was only six
>traps---I throwed in the 1 1/2 for small critters---just because of my
>own preferences---traps cost more than the powder or the other things in
>the inventory in that time  of history---6 traps cost as much as a rifle
>in that time span---
    I've always wondered if the standard allotment of traps wasn't due at
least in part to the cost.  I know I can walk a six mile line, make a few
sets, and skin, stretch, and flesh six beaver before the sun gets past
noon; that makes me think it wasn't due to the short amount of daylight.
    I agree with you on the small traps--other animals were taken when
opportunity allowed, and a change in camp meat is always welcome.

>I like the extra comfort of the
>extra powder and supplies---
    And I come in from the other extreme at times, spent too much time with
Indians in my formative years I guess.  There is just so much available
food that I don't worry about it much.

>I also believe that most of the MM didnt
>always dig a casha---they used caves and other natural places for storage
>that were semi protected from the elements---
    Where I grew up, that is just a totally foreign concept.  Not a lot of
caves in the sandhills or along the Platte, and any cache made in the
Badlands in SoDak would soon be lost.

>several that can be
>ground into a paste and a meal  made from it---the Osage call it "sweet
>meat of the strong tree"
    Yeah-learned a long time ago to rob squirrels, and to take the acorns from
the top of the trees (lower rate of spoilage in both cases)-but acorns and
walnuts are more of a novelty than a staple out here.  They just arent'
populous enough to make it worthwhile to try to find and harvest large
quantities.

>also near the rivers they used fish traps made
>out of wood to catch and hold fish---
    Again, its probably my upbringing, but the thought of having to eat fish
is a powerful incentive to find something else to eat.  Definitely not one
of my favorite foods.  I'm not sure it is "cost-effective" in terms of
calories acquired for calories expended, at least in most places.  Areas
like you are talking about are an exception as quantities can be gathered
at one time.

>they would also nuddel catfish
>and put them in these holding ponds for future usage---
    I wonder how many folks on the list know what this is?   Will you explain
it, you'll do it better than I would.  Let me just say that when I was six
I got hold of a carp doing this that weighed more than 30 pounds.
    And while I don't care for fish, I do know that anywhere there is water
there is food (I spotted a snapper on my walk yesterday, next time I head
up north I'll take him to the ranch for my adopted family to fix in the old
style).

>so i guess the salt thing was important in my estimation as the indians
>seemed to cherrish the salt licks or areas wher the natural salt could be
>obtained and would load their horses and travoices down with it for
>future usage---
    Well, you _can_ use it, you don't _have_ to use it.

>lots of stuff to ponder when thinking about what the mountain man and the
>native american would do to survive for the total time of more than one
>year in the wilderness---forethought and planning were important for
>survival---
    And learning to live with the cycle of the seasons.

>I feel that things that could be broken or lost that they
>would to have at least one spare handy---that was why i used the high
>number for steels and knives---
    Yeah, but I can recall at least one mention of someone loaning out a
striker because none were to be had at the fort.

>without the gun but the knife and fire steel to me would make the
>difference in true survival---look at the high quantities on the listings
>of skinner knives that were taken to the roo's always several dozen and 6
>is not excessive due to loss and breakage---
    Yes--I often wonder if having spares wasn't a luxury.
    (And why those awkward skinners?  I have never gotten the hang of using
one, preferring a butcher knife or better yet one of those Dadleys that I
can't establish a date of introduction for...)

>gads bud have i run off at the computer keyboard---and I as you sit and
>ponder these things and try to come to some sence of fact and
>reality---hope you understand my thought pattern on this subject---
    You know, there are two logical points for continuation of this
discussion.  We should take a look at trade lists of goods going to the
rendezvous to consider mountain costs of these goods (and quantities
obtained by individuals where it can be determined), particularly in
relation to the price for furs and the quantities traded.  And we should
look at early accounts  of what folks took with them when they left the
settlements.
    If anyone is interested in the rationale for the way Native Americans
utilized animals for meat, you might want to take a look at a book called
"Bison Kills and Bone Counts" by John D. Speth.   There are a number of
other books dealing with aboriginal food sources, I can come up with titles
if anyone needs them.
LongWalker c. du B.


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