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hist_text-digest         Monday, May 15 2000         Volume 01 : Number 551



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Mothers Day!
-áááááá MtMan-List: powder horns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
-áááááá MtMan-List: making parchment
-áááááá MtMan-List: Spring Time
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What a country
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What a country
-áááááá MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What a country
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What a country
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
-áááááá MtMan-List: What a country
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:44:21 -0700
From: Steve M <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mothers Day!

I know this is off the list a bit, but Happy Mother's day to all that
are mother's on the list .

Steve"boatkiller"McGehee


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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:04:24 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: powder horns

Cap'n
    After reading your respectful disagreement with my posting, I concluded
that we essentially agree.
    I don't fault your reasoning but believe we do look at things from a
slightly differ'nt perspective.
    The metal powder 'horn' is historically interesting and, at best, it is
subject for thought and mebbe further study.  If there were any quantity of
these around, I suspect they have mostly all rusted away and gone except for
a rare one or two preserved by families of famous individuals.
    The only way I would show up at r'vouz with a copy would be a deliberate
attempt to start a rousing campfire debate. I am just mischievous enough to
do something like that.
Mutually Respectfully, Frank Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:42:08 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"

Thanks Bill.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cunningham" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"





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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:45:53 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"

It continually amazes me the collective knowledge of this group. Ask nice
and you learn all kinds of neat stuff. Thanks LongWalker. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"


> Washtahay-
> At 05:04 PM 5/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >    I let myself in for some jibes when I mentioned my primer horn has a
> >brass 'thingy' on the end to make priming easier.  I don't mind.  While
> >'they' may not have had one of those exact brass tips, there were other
type
> >of horn tips, stoppers, spouts and such during the time period in
question.
> >Unlikely 'they' , meaning the trappers made use of them.
> Horns were traded with charger heads in place.  At least as early as 1805,
> HBC was ordering horns with "brass mountings", surviving specimens show a
> brass ring around the large end of the horn, brass eyelets for the
carrying
> strap, and an adjustable brass charger head.  Similar horns were traded in
> the US, and were available in St Louis in quantities that would indicate
> they were trade items.
> By "brass thingy" were you referring to one of those priming valves as
> sold by TOTW and other suppliers?  Most likely, those are a recent
> innovation.  They incorporate a fine coil spring, and the work that went
> into making those ca 1830 makes it unlikely they were in use.
> Plus they can gum up badly in humid weather.
>
> >    My point:  while visiting New Orleans some years ago we went to a
museum
> >where I saw a "horn" made entirely out of metal.  It looked like tin or
> >tinned steel.  It was not designed to imitate a natural horn but was,
> >instead, strictly utilitarian.
> From your description, I'm not sure if the item you refer to is shaped
> like a horn or if it is more flask-shaped.
> Most of the early metal flasks (actually, every one I have seen or seen
> referenced) were of copper, brass, or silver.  These metals offer a number
> of advantages: soft, easy to form, easy to join, non-ferrous (so no rust
> and no sparks).  These were traded to some extent in the west, at least
one
> is mentioned at Fort Union (sorry, don't recall the date).
> All of the iron or tinned iron "horns" with which I am familiar post-date
> the Civil War.  During the Victorian era, curio cabinets became
> popular--most of the tinned horns were intended for these.  I used to know
> a guy who collected these (he must have had 40 or 50 of 'em).  According
to
> him, all of the specimens he had seen were machine-made and had seams like
> a tin can-folded and soldered.  In the times I examined his collection, I
> never saw any indication the horns had been used to hold powder.
>
> >    If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
> >    We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we
should
> >not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
> >Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
> >information.
> It has always seemed easier to me to do the research first, then acquire
> equipment.  Trying to make equipment fit research leads to too many
> rationalizations.
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:04:26 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: making parchment

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Horace Kephart (1862-1931) lived in the Smoky Mountains and spent much =
of the last decades of the 19th century living in the wild.  His epic =
book "Camping and Woodcraft" was published as a single volume in 1906 =
and expanded into a two volume set in 1916 and in it he wrote vividly =
and clearly about what he learned about camping.  He knew many old =
timers and included in the book much of what he learned from them.  The =
book is available as a facsimile edition from the University of =
Tennessee press (isbn 0-87049-556-9) and makes a great addition to =
anybody's library.  Last year I needed to replace my dog-eared copy and =
I got a new copy from Amazon.com.  Many actual bookstores carry it, =
too...visit them first. =20
One of the endless tidbits of "how-to" information in the book is how to =
make parchment...in case somebody wants to use the real thing instead of =
the brown mottled paper sold as parchment by stationary stores. =20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
Read on:=20

"It may sometimes happen that one wishes to prepare a sheet of parchment =
on which to write an important document;  this can be done in the =
wilderness, if one can kill some animal that has a gall-bladder.  Make =
the parchment like ordinary rawhide, from the thin skin of a =
medium-sized animal, say a fawn or a wildcat.  Rub it down with a flat =
piece of sandstone or pumice-stone.  Then get a smooth, water-worn =
pebble and with it rub every part of one surface (hair side) of the =
skin, making it firm and smooth.  Then give this a coat of gall diluted =
with water.
The old-fashioned way (REMEMBER THIS WAS WRITTEN ABOUT 1900....Lanney) =
of making  ox-gall: take the gall of a newly killed ox and after having =
allowed it to settle twelve or fifteen hours in a basin, pour the =
floating liquor off the sediment into a small pan or cup, put the latter =
in a larger vessel that has a little boiling water in the bottom, and =
keep up a boiling heat until the liquor is somewhat thick; then spread =
this substance on a dish and place it before a fire until it becomes =
nearly dry.  In this state it can be kept for years in a pot covered =
with paper, without undergoing any alteration.  To use it, dissolve a =
piece  the size of a pea in a tablespoonful of water.  It makes ink or =
watercolors spread evenly on parchment, paper, or ivory.  A coating of =
it sets lead-pencil or crayon marks so that they cannot be removed.  It =
is also used for taking out spots of grease or oil."



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Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Horace Kephart (1862-1931) lived in the Smoky =
Mountains and=20
spent much of the last decades of the 19th century living in the =
wild.  His=20
epic book "Camping and Woodcraft" was published as a single volume in =
1906=20
and expanded into a two volume set in 1916 and in it he wrote =
vividly and=20
clearly about what he learned about camping.  He knew many old =
timers and=20
included in the book much of what he learned from them.  The book =
is=20
available as a facsimile edition from the University of Tennessee =
press=20
(isbn 0-87049-556-9) and makes a great addition to anybody's=20
library.  Last year I needed to replace my dog-eared copy and =
I got a=20
new copy from Amazon.com.  Many actual bookstores carry it, too...visit =
them=20
first.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3><FONT size=3D3>One of </FONT>the endless =
tidbits of=20
"how-to" information in the book is how to make parchment...in case =
somebody=20
wants to use the real thing instead of the brown mottled paper sold as =
parchment=20
by stationary stores.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Read on: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"It may sometimes happen that one wishes to prepare a sheet of =
parchment on=20
which to write an important document;  this can be done in the =
wilderness,=20
if one can kill some animal that has a gall-bladder.  Make the =
parchment=20
like ordinary rawhide, from the thin skin of a medium-sized animal, say =
a fawn=20
or a wildcat.  Rub it down with a flat piece of sandstone or=20
pumice-stone.  Then get a smooth, water-worn pebble and with it rub =
every=20
part of one surface (hair side) of the skin, making it firm and =
smooth. =20
Then give this a coat of gall diluted with water.</DIV>
<DIV>The old-fashioned way (REMEMBER THIS WAS WRITTEN ABOUT =
1900....Lanney) of=20
making  ox-gall: take the gall of a newly killed ox and after =
having=20
allowed it to settle twelve or fifteen hours in a basin, pour the =
floating=20
liquor off the sediment into a small pan or cup, put the latter in a =
larger=20
vessel that has a little boiling water in the bottom, and keep up a =
boiling heat=20
until the liquor is somewhat thick; then spread this substance on a dish =
and=20
place it before a fire until it becomes nearly dry.  In this state =
it can=20
be kept for years in a pot covered with paper, without undergoing any=20
alteration.  To use it, dissolve a piece  the size of a pea in =
a=20
tablespoonful of water.  It makes ink or watercolors spread evenly =
on=20
parchment, paper, or ivory.  A coating of it sets lead-pencil or =
crayon=20
marks so that they cannot be removed.  It is also used for taking =
out spots=20
of grease or oil."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFBDD7.38F594A0--


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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:04:36 GMT
From: "Bill Jackson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Spring Time

Waugh, I do hope and wish that all of you Mountain Men take some time to
just look outside your frontdoor and envision ,what our old brothers saw in
the springtime in the mountains, waugh a sight.
MadJack



>From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country
>Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:37:28 -0500
>
>I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like
>something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my
>favorite places.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:53 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: What a country
>
>
> > Hello the camp,
> >
> > One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here
>in
> > the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass
>along a
> > little of my appreciation.
> >
> > Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> > Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least
>250
> > antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had a
>real
> > close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> > Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area,
>glimpsed
> > at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction
>of
> > the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's and
> > Lewis Fork.
> >
> > What a country!  Waugh!
> >
> > Allen
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:31:32 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"(flask or can)

longwalker
I have a powder can that is shaped like a flask with a cork plug---it
also has 2 small steel rings on the sides---havent seen one like it that
was made after 1900 or found any other documentatiuon on it---it is
american made but no dates that i can see or find if i get the scanner up
and running any time soon will scan and send you a picture if it---I have
a good view of it with my hawken pistol that a friend who is a comercial
photographer took ---he wanted a pistol and a powder flask that would be
different and unique for one of his customers---dont know what he will
use the photo for but he gave me a copy of the print---

best to you

YMHOSANT

HAWK
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:55:11 -0600
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country

Thank you Allan,

Please do tell anyone about Wyoming, it is getting crowded enough

Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:20:27 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country

you write:
> Thank you Allan,
>  Please do tell anyone about Wyoming, it is getting crowded enough
>  Joe

Joe,
One week ago you told a couple of us who sent emails to this list to keep the
personal replies off the list.  Now you have done exactly the same thing.

Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?

This was once a very informative list and I spent a great deal of time
researching my posts and have an archive full of valuable info posted by
other members at the time.  There was much exchange of mutual information.

Of course, that was before you joined and in the past year, many others have
joined.  In this lastyear, it has become an "old boys" chat line.  Nobody
seems to know how to use a computer properly because instead of editing their
responses, they hit the reply button and send back a one line response with
the previous 6 emails on that thread still attached to it.  Personal off
topic conversation seems to have become the norm rather than the exception.
It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my friends
too.

Do we have a double standard here, or am I missing something?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Dave

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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:59:21 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat

Hallo the List,

I'm about half way into "Forty Years a Fur Trader", a personal narrative of
Charles Larpenteur, a clerk for the American Fur Company.  A good read...

Larpenteur talks of heading down the Missouri River for St. Louis in a
"Mackinaw boat".... not sure what a Mackinaw boat looks like...anyone know?
Larpenteur was French, so I'm thinking it isn't a bateau, or he would have
called it that.

Ymos,
Steve

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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:42:57 -0600
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country

At 11:20 PM 05/14/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
>publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?

Hey, I finally made it to an "old boys club".  Is that good or bad.

>It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
>for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
>information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my friends
>too.

Made it to the "old boys club" and I'm not even retired!

Well, for some socially redeeming value to this e-mail.  For you new brain
tanning folks, plan on braining your hides at least twice.  I'm working on a
big mule deer hide.  It came about 2/3's out with the second braining, and
oughta be dandy on the third one.

And while you've got all that great brain juice, drop in a couple of more
hides for their first go around.

Brain tanning is a lot of physical work, but well worth the effort.  It's
not all that difficult (but is time consuming) to turn out stuff that costs
at least $10 a square foot to buy.  Put it into a slightly different
perspective, that's about $90 a yard.

In the past I've dry scraped, but am trying wet scrape this go around.  Many
folks say that wet scrape gives a fluffier hide than dry, but I've not found
that myself.

Good luck!

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country


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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:11:04 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 8:59 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Mackinaw boat




> Larpenteur talks of heading down the Missouri River for St. Louis in a
> "Mackinaw boat".... not sure what a Mackinaw boat looks like...anyone
know?

Magpie,

I've included a link to a site that shows a small picture of a Mackinaw boat
of the late 19th century under sail. The basic hull design would probably
have been similar.
http://www.wmich.edu/history/maritime/gallery.html


> Larpenteur was French, so I'm thinking it isn't a bateau, or he would have
> called it that.

The French word for boat is "bateau" and it was used innerchangably by many
cultures including the British and Americans on this continent. Any boat can
be a bateau in that sense but generally what is being refered to is a double
ended "usually flat bottomed" boat of lengths anywhere from the size of my
boat up to 30-60 feet as long as it is made with flat lumber with all the
boards running lenthwise.

The use of lumber that way also defines a dory which is the general family
name for such boats. They can be flat bottomed with straight but flaired
sides like mine and may have a defined stern unlike mine or be esentially
double ended. If they are double ended dories then they are considered
'bateau". Confused yet? <G> A Makenzie River Drift Boat is a scrunched up
dory, is a bateau. My boat is representative of the small end of bateau that
were built to move men and cargo up and down the western rivers. Size
depended on materials and need. Such boats were built from around or before
the French and Indian Wars, well into the 20th Century.

A Mackinaw boat is just a specific design in that basic family of boats and
was one of many styles that were used in the fur trade throughout Canada,
The Great Lakes, the Inland Rivers of America including the western rivers
like the Missurii and Columbia. To add to the confusion, there was a York
boat that was used by the HBC and etc. to go to York Factory on Hudsons Bay
(if I got my geography right, Angela) and the Columbia Boat that was of
course used on the Columbia. Each boat had small differences to allow for
different conditions and manpower considerations. But all were generically
the same basic style of boat with the variations of rounded bottom/rounded
sides, flat bottom/rounded sides or flat sides, planked lapstrake or
carravel construction . Some of the size variations were mandated by the
number and severity of portage' and some by the turbulance of the waters
covered.

Most could be sailed and usually with a simple square sail in the center but
as you see in the picture of the Mackinaw Boat on that web site, they could
also be muli-masted and use other sail shapes like the latteen.

So Larpenteur was probably on a boat that was of lapstrake construction,
with a rounded hull, that could be sailed and was double ended. It was
probably put together with riven or perhaps pit sawn lumber running full
length, fastened with clinched nails and seams sealed with the barrels of
pine tare and oakum that went up river with the other Rendezvous supplies.
Looking ,quit like a large Adirondack Guide Canoe but scaled up by quit a
bit.

Now I am not as well read on this subject as I would like to be so there may
be others that can "clean up" this explanation and they are free to do so. I
probably will learn something or get my ideas straightened out. <G> Hope
this helped. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'










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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:29:38 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country

Do we have to start with this line of acrimony again?
Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country


>you write:
>> Thank you Allan,
>>  Please do tell anyone about Wyoming, it is getting crowded enough
>>  Joe
>
>Joe,
>One week ago you told a couple of us who sent emails to this list to keep
the
>personal replies off the list.  Now you have done exactly the same thing.
>
>Are you trying to tell me that is OK for your "old boys club" to converse
>publicly on the list, but everyone else should do it privately?
>
>This was once a very informative list and I spent a great deal of time
>researching my posts and have an archive full of valuable info posted by
>other members at the time.  There was much exchange of mutual information.
>
>Of course, that was before you joined and in the past year, many others
have
>joined.  In this lastyear, it has become an "old boys" chat line.  Nobody
>seems to know how to use a computer properly because instead of editing
their
>responses, they hit the reply button and send back a one line response with
>the previous 6 emails on that thread still attached to it.  Personal off
>topic conversation seems to have become the norm rather than the exception.
>It's a chat room for old, retired guys to relive their past with no concern
>for others on the list who are hoping for an exchange of ideas and
>information, rather than personal BS.  And Yeah, a lot of them are my
friends
>too.
>
>Do we have a double standard here, or am I missing something?
>Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Dave
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:05:02 -0400
From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

Steve,

This is the problem.  There are several books with similar pictures, but
without
primary documentation you can't say for certain that they existed in that
particular
time period.   Even Madison Grant stated, in his later years, that you can
add
about 50 years to most artifacts and you'll be closer to the real age.
Thanks for the response and info.

Dennis

BTW, the ball starter and loading block have been formally challenged
in the ALRA and so far no documentation has been found to support them.

>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
>1976, so I think well documented...
>Don't see a short starter though.....
>Ymos,
>Steve



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:17:47 -0400
From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

Tony,

I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.

Dennis

>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>generally weren't used by many folks.


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:14:37 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

Gentelmen,
I have what may be a dumb question, Why would they use a priming horn for
cannon priming? from what I have read in the past, Cannon powder is verry
course and not suitable for priming. If I shoot 3F powder I can use it for
priming as there is verry litle difference but to use 2f make it a litle
more difficult. If you are using your flintlock correctly it should make
verry litle difference what you use, (the powder is to the outside of the
pan so that it flashes wrather than burn like a fuze).
However having said that, if I am shooting in a compatition I would
definatly use 4f for priming because the ignition is much faster and I
flinch less. I know some may have other opinions and I would like to hear
from you.
YMOS
Ole
- ----------
>From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
>Date: Mon, May 15, 2000, 9:05 AM
>

>Steve,
>
>This is the problem.  There are several books with similar pictures, but
>without
>primary documentation you can't say for certain that they existed in that
>particular
>time period.   Even Madison Grant stated, in his later years, that you can
>add
>about 50 years to most artifacts and you'll be closer to the real age.
>Thanks for the response and info.
>
>Dennis
>
>BTW, the ball starter and loading block have been formally challenged
>in the ALRA and so far no documentation has been found to support them.
>
>>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
>>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
>>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
>>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
>>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
>>1976, so I think well documented...
>>Don't see a short starter though.....
>>Ymos,
>>Steve
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:53:22 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

I'll put in my two cents worth on priming horns - no hard historical data -
just my experience. I got my first flinter in 1947 when I was carping at my
father for a nice lever action 38-40. He reached above the windows at the
old remote farm we lived in that had been in the family since the early
1800s and took down an old pouch, 36 cal flinter, and a pair of horns. One
of them was for priming. He told me that when I had taken a deer with it,
we'd see about the 38-40. When I had learned to shoot it and had shot my
deer, I didn't want the modern gun. Just as well since we were quite poor
and I don't know how he'd have managed it. The farm, and the flinter and
accouterments went up in flames one night. Sad loss. But the horns and gun
came from very early in the family history in Northern Maine.
Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Earp <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn


>Tony,
>
>I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's
>a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman.  Unfortuntely, we didn't get
>around to discussing priming horns.  I have talked to Roland Cadle on
>several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of
>the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century.
>That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able
>to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons.
>
>Dennis
>
>>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the
>>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost
>>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few
>>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns
>>generally weren't used by many folks.
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:25:04 -0600
From: James Seward <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What a country

- --------------9B7F6FDA25893CE753E4AA7A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

O.K. which one of you let out the info on Wyoming, We like our population
 some where below half a million.
                                        somewhere on the Big Horn River  PTBIW

                                 Sikapi  Makui---------------><}}}>
                                 James H Seward.............AMM.. 1189

- --------------9B7F6FDA25893CE753E4AA7A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<b><font face="Comic Sans MS">O.K. which one of you let out the info on
Wyoming, We like our population</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"> some where below half a million.</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
somewhere on the Big Horn River  PTBIW</font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"> </font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
Sikapi  Makui---------------><}}}></font></b>
<br><b><font face="Comic Sans MS">
James H Seward.............AMM.. 1189</font></b></html>

- --------------9B7F6FDA25893CE753E4AA7A--


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:34:49 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

Early cannon was primed from a horn and a lighted cord touched down in the
"touch-hole".  This was the charge that set off the breech load.  Later, a
flintlock ignition was adapted to cannon but the priming horn was still used
for initial ignition as previous.  By the Civil War the percussion cap had
replaced the flintlock as the preferred priming device...but a small priming
powder horn was still kept handy for those failed ignitions.
    Cannon powder was too course for priming and a finer grind was used for
the primer.

Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn


> Gentelmen,
> I have what may be a dumb question, Why would they use a priming horn for
> cannon priming? from what I have read in the past, Cannon powder is verry
> course and not suitable for priming. If I shoot 3F powder I can use it for
> priming as there is verry litle difference but to use 2f make it a litle
> more difficult. If you are using your flintlock correctly it should make
> verry litle difference what you use, (the powder is to the outside of the
> pan so that it flashes wrather than burn like a fuze).
> However having said that, if I am shooting in a compatition I would
> definatly use 4f for priming because the ignition is much faster and I
> flinch less. I know some may have other opinions and I would like to hear
> from you.
> YMOS
> Ole
> ----------
> >From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
> >Date: Mon, May 15, 2000, 9:05 AM
> >
>
> >Steve,
> >
> >This is the problem.  There are several books with similar pictures, but
> >without
> >primary documentation you can't say for certain that they existed in that
> >particular
> >time period.   Even Madison Grant stated, in his later years, that you
can
> >add
> >about 50 years to most artifacts and you'll be closer to the real age.
> >Thanks for the response and info.
> >
> >Dennis
> >
> >BTW, the ball starter and loading block have been formally challenged
> >in the ALRA and so far no documentation has been found to support them.
> >
> >>In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
> >>accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among
other
> >>things, a small priming horn... (see at:
> >>http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
> >>This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association"
in
> >>1976, so I think well documented...
> >>Don't see a short starter though.....
> >>Ymos,
> >>Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

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