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hist_text-digest         Sunday, May 14 2000         Volume 01 : Number 550



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
-áááááá MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: priming horn
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Gourds Buck
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
-áááááá MtMan-List: Women's Clothing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson's guns
-áááááá Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What a country
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What a country

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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:02:28 -0700
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)

Angela,
Lest anyone think I authored the article I posted, "The New Gold Dollar
Coin", tis not the case.  This was sent to me and I thought it interesting
enough to forward to the list for general reference and interest.
Your points are well taken regarding this interpretation of the events in
question.  I leave it to the reader(s) to ferret the facts.
John Funk

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1980 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)


> "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]> forwarded the following info
on
> Sacagawea, which I thought I'd comment on. Even though I'm a Canadian, I
> can't sit by and see Lewis & Clark criticized unfairly, no matter how
> mildly ;-)
>
> > Sacagawea had been kidnapped and enslaved by the Mandan Sioux who were
> > living in Fort Mandan, North Dakota.  The Mandan gambled her away to
> > Charbonneau, a White fur trader who had lived among them for many years.
>
> Sacagawea is consistently described as having been captured by "the
> Minnetares"--either Gros Ventres or Blackfoot ("Minnetaree of the
Plains").
> And I've never heard that she was "gambled away"--I always assumed she had
> been sold.
>
> > These women [Charbonneau's wives]
> > were called "Squaws" which is the Algonquin word for "prostitutes".
>
> In American English, then and now, "squaw" means "Indian woman". Today it
> is often a derogatory term. We do not know what Native word, if any,
> Charbonneau or the Mandans used to describe his wives, but it seems very
> unlikely that the Mandans had any concept of prostitution--I've just been
> reading Alexander Henry the Younger's Mandan journals, which gives many
> details of Mandan sexual practices in 1806, right after the Lewis & Clark
> Expedition.  The meaning of "squaw" in Native languages is unclear, but in
> Cree, an Algonkian language, "iskwao" means "woman/wife", similar to the
> German "frau" or the French "femme".
>
> >She had experienced a difficult delivery
> > under primitive, unsanitary conditions when Jean-Baptiste (called Pomp
by
> > Sacagawea) was born.
>
> Pompey was likely a nickname given to the baby by one of the Captains,
> after the Roman general Pompey the Great. (Parents of newborns will
> understand this joke!)
>
> The author of this article makes much of the apparently casual way
> Sacagawea is mentioned in early journal entries by Lewis & Clark, and
> suggests that this shows that she was not a very highly valued member of
> the expedition. I think this is unfair to the Captains. Today, we keep
> journals primarily to express our emotions: then, a journal was primarily
> meant to record events, and journals of the period often treat all but the
> most distressing events in a very matter-of-fact way; "emoting" was simply
> not done in a report to one's government, which was the purpose of the
> journals kept by members of the L&C expedition.
>
>
> >Sacagawea was very ill.
> > Clark further recorded on the evening of June 16, 1805 that she was "out
> > of her senses...If she dies it will be the fault of her husband as I am
> > now convinced."
> > Clark's medical knowledge and these recorded symptoms indicate that the
> > explorers believed that Sacagawea had a venereal disease.
>
> I don't think it's easy to say whether they thought Sacagawea had a
> venereal disease. It's entirely possible Charbonneau was blamed  for
making
> her sick through over-work or abuse or not following the prescribed
> treatment. "Obstruction of the mensis" is not necessarily venereal
disease;
> in Dr. Elliott Coues' edition of the L&C journals, published in the 1893,
> he notes that "the tender age of her infant" should have called into
> question a diagnosis of "obstruction of the menses", suggesting that this
> was a different ailment. Other journals of the period call venereal
disease
> by name.
>
> Toussaint Charbonneau deserves all the harsh treatment he gets in this
> article; Sacagawea's bravery, justly praised by the author, was not
> uncommon amongst Native women.
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:39:26 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)

[e-mail] writes:

> Pompey was likely a nickname given to the baby by one of the Captains,
>  after the Roman general Pompey the Great. (Parents of newborns will
>  understand this joke!)>>

Thank you Angela I was about to write something similar on the Sacagawea
story, but you did a much better job.

If I remember correctly Jean-Baptise Charbonneau was called "Pomp"
by his mother, which in Shoshone means "first born." This of course was
changed to Pompey by Clark as a fun little loving nick name that we often
give kids.

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf

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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:04:42 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"

    I let myself in for some jibes when I mentioned my primer horn has a
brass 'thingy' on the end to make priming easier.  I don't mind.  While
'they' may not have had one of those exact brass tips, there were other type
of horn tips, stoppers, spouts and such during the time period in question.
Unlikely 'they' , meaning the trappers made use of them.
    However, it is my belief that we are very much still learning what may
have been available and in use during the pre-1840 era.
    My point:  while visiting New Orleans some years ago we went to a museum
where I saw a "horn" made entirely out of metal.  It looked like tin or
tinned steel.  It was not designed to imitate a natural horn but was,
instead, strictly utilitarian.  Not my choice of materials, particularly in
110% humidity of south Louisiana but there it was. The label credited it to
belong to some famous individual from history. Cannot reccolect who but will
follow-up one day if it comes to me. I took pictures. If I locate those I
will make available off-line also.
    If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
    We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we should
not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
information.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:09:19 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 3:04 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"


If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
>     We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we should
> not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
> Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
> information.

Bearclaw,

I probably can't do the subject of "period correct" or "authenticated to"
credit but I would like to comment on the idea you put forth. Your suggested
way of looking at historical "re-creating" is shared by many but many also
adhear to, what I would characterize as, the opposite way of looking at what
we do.

If you take your way of looking at "what they might have had" to it's
logical conclusion then most anything that was possessed by anyone during or
before that particular time period, let's say, in North America was probably
posessed by "some trappers" in the RMFT. That, you might agree is a bit too
far stretched but where do you stop?

The other way of looking at it or deciding what is or is not "period
correct" or authentic to a time and place in our history is by adhearing to
serious documentation. Those that use this method may fairly be said to be
"re-creating" that era more correctly the way it was originally lived. So if
they are sure that "any particular thing or practice" was carried or done
back then by trappers and limit themselves to those things they can prove,
perhaps they are missing out on the use of "various items", etc. But they
are being as faithful to the original history as is possible, given the
knowledge available to them.

If you see something unusual in a museum (not attributed to a trapper but of
that vintage) or come up with some trick way of adding to how we practice
our shooting or camping, (and it looks and functions old timey) and say that
some trapper might have had this or some trapper might have thought up this
trick thing so it is ok and authentic, you are diluting history. That is not
re-creating history, that is inventing history. Your welcome in most cases
to do it if you wish but I respectfully submit that it is not very
scientific nor is it "period/place correct".

Now if you can prove that such a metal horn was actually carried by a
trapper during the time you are concerned about and in the area you are
concerned about, that would be great. If you can't, then be honest and say
"this is neat and old and of the time, so I choose to carry it even though I
can't show it was actually done".

We do not know in all ways how they did things or what they carried but the
knowledge is constantly growing with fair certainty and our ideas of what
was done and how it was done are growing and changing. We shouldn't be
fixated on the Romanticism to the point we don't embrace new knowledge but
we should be willing to wait for good solid evidence and it continually
comes availbable. Respecfully, I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:33:16 -0600
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

Dennis Earp wrote:

> List,
>
> On the subject of priming horns, has anyone ever came across primary
> documentation on the use of priming horns for 1750-1830 period in
> America?  I've found documentation for priming horns that were used
> for cannons, but as yet have not been able to find it for rifles.  I know
> there are some shown in reference books, but I don't believe they were
> ever authenicated as to the time period and some claim they are actually
> late 19th century "day" horns.
>
> Dennis

If you look at the Dixie Antique Arms Quarterlies, they sometimes show cased
flint pistols and matched cased flint pistols with all the accs. which in
some cases show small priming devices. From the text and the picture they
look like ebony bodies with brass or nicked spouts. These are gentlemen
weapons, dueling, coach, etc. not going and coming from the woods or
mountains, with all the items in these cased sets - you would loose half
before getting out of site of the settlements.

I have an original F&I War period priming horn (made of cow horn) with a
forged ring that also has a powder measurer also made of cow horn attached.
Nothing fancy other than someone's name scratched on it, my grandfather
claimed it was handed down through the family, but we never did figure out
who the name belonged to ?

In Grants book on pouches and horn, etc. there may be one or two bags with
priming horns, have to look, will do that and get back to you. Will also see
what the hunter from Pottstown PA had in his shooting bag, finally found that
article a few weeks that we talked about months ago.

Later
Buck



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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:45:07 -0600
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn

> >In "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850", pg 257 shows a hunting bag and
> accouterments of David Cooke (born 1761, died 1842.) It shows, among other
> things, a small priming horn... (see at:
> >http://members.aol.com:/swcushing/myhomepage/bag1800.jpg )
> >This reference book was published for "The Kentucky Rifle Association" in
> 1976, so I think well documented...
> >Don't see a short starter though.....
> >Ymos,
> >Steve

Steve,
I got to hold the Cook rifle and shooting bag when on display at an NRA
convention probably ten years ago, at that time Jack Davis of Ohio, a gun trader
and collector had it on display along with Cook's fishing and camp items.

The article you refer to says Norristown, but Mr. Cook was housed out of
Pottstown during his time as a meat hunter, serving several towns. The mistake
of towns was made in 1978 in an article written in the American Hunter, the
author got confused on the name and probably figured it didn't matter anyway.
Davis wrote a correction after studying Mr. Cook's life and gathering up
everything he had come in contact with. At that time Jack was going to will it
to the Pottstown Historical Society at the time of his death, putting it back to
Cook's hometown.

Later
Buck

PS
I took lots of pictures of the bag, rifle and his other equipage, someday we'll
reproduce the fishing kit, tin hinged box, etc. GBW has the sketches for a
winter project - I get the first kit, then we'll retail them.



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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:56:27 -0600
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds Buck

Walt Foster wrote:

> Good morning Buck,
>
> Thanks for the warning. Stop.  But about what? Stop.  I learned to write in
> telegraphic style when I went to work on the NP railroad for a while 40
> years ago. Stop.  I am talking about 2 camps. Stop.  One camp is the Clark
> camp on the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone in 1806. Stop.  The other camp
> with Jim Bridger is in the same location.  Stop.
>
> What does this have to do with east of Mississippi? Stop.  Or anyplace else
> except the location being talked about by me. Stop.  Let me write it before
> you jump.  Stop.   I am going to try to answer Mr. Stickler question this
> morning as I am sitting watching the snow falling around me here in Park
> City, Montana.
>
> Thanks again for the warning.  Stop.  Walt

I don't know what the "stop" crap is Walt, from the original message you guys
made it sound like gourds where a new item 1800's, when in fact they have been
traded, and carried all over the America's. Thomas Jefferson had gotten seeds
from North and South America in his trading before becoming president, L&C, etc.
some of his trades came from the southwest - Mexico, some from northern trade
possibly Canada, etc. Look the Spanish trade from South America to the Canadian
border.



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:25:56 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"

Man! You are GOOD, Roger.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"


>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
>To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 3:04 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"
>
>
>If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
>>     We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we
should
>> not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
>> Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
>> information.
>
>Bearclaw,
>
>I probably can't do the subject of "period correct" or "authenticated to"
>credit but I would like to comment on the idea you put forth. Your
suggested
>way of looking at historical "re-creating" is shared by many but many also
>adhear to, what I would characterize as, the opposite way of looking at
what
>we do.
>
>If you take your way of looking at "what they might have had" to it's
>logical conclusion then most anything that was possessed by anyone during
or
>before that particular time period, let's say, in North America was
probably
>posessed by "some trappers" in the RMFT. That, you might agree is a bit too
>far stretched but where do you stop?
>
>The other way of looking at it or deciding what is or is not "period
>correct" or authentic to a time and place in our history is by adhearing to
>serious documentation. Those that use this method may fairly be said to be
>"re-creating" that era more correctly the way it was originally lived. So
if
>they are sure that "any particular thing or practice" was carried or done
>back then by trappers and limit themselves to those things they can prove,
>perhaps they are missing out on the use of "various items", etc. But they
>are being as faithful to the original history as is possible, given the
>knowledge available to them.
>
>If you see something unusual in a museum (not attributed to a trapper but
of
>that vintage) or come up with some trick way of adding to how we practice
>our shooting or camping, (and it looks and functions old timey) and say
that
>some trapper might have had this or some trapper might have thought up this
>trick thing so it is ok and authentic, you are diluting history. That is
not
>re-creating history, that is inventing history. Your welcome in most cases
>to do it if you wish but I respectfully submit that it is not very
>scientific nor is it "period/place correct".
>
>Now if you can prove that such a metal horn was actually carried by a
>trapper during the time you are concerned about and in the area you are
>concerned about, that would be great. If you can't, then be honest and say
>"this is neat and old and of the time, so I choose to carry it even though
I
>can't show it was actually done".
>
>We do not know in all ways how they did things or what they carried but the
>knowledge is constantly growing with fair certainty and our ideas of what
>was done and how it was done are growing and changing. We shouldn't be
>fixated on the Romanticism to the point we don't embrace new knowledge but
>we should be willing to wait for good solid evidence and it continually
>comes availbable. Respecfully, I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:27:03 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)

Just a quick note.....  if you've had one of the new dollar coins they
don't look 'Gold" for long...they tarnish quickly...not a good tribute to
an American Hero.....   Birdwoman.....        hardtack

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Date: 14 May 00 10:53:50 EDT
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]

<[e-mail]> wrote:
Walt Foster wrote:

> Good morning Buck,
>
> Thanks for the warning. Stop.  But about what? Stop.  I learned to writ=
e in
> telegraphic style when I went to work on the NP railroad for a while 40=

> years ago. Stop.  I am talking about 2 camps. Stop.  One camp is the
Clark.............

Hey Walt,

I know what your saying and understand what Buck is saying about how the =
trade
of different things could and did put items in uncommon places, anyway Bu=
ck
won't be around for a few days to reply.

He was invited with about 25-30 other drag racers from the USA and Canada=

(Super Stock drivers from the early sixties, like Sox & Martin, Jenkins, =
and
so on) to a convention in Vineland NJ, he left last night, said would try=
 and
get back by Tue. - will call me after todays meetings.


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:38:54 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder "horns?"

Washtahay-
At 05:04 PM 5/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
>    I let myself in for some jibes when I mentioned my primer horn has a
>brass 'thingy' on the end to make priming easier.  I don't mind.  While
>'they' may not have had one of those exact brass tips, there were other type
>of horn tips, stoppers, spouts and such during the time period in question.
>Unlikely 'they' , meaning the trappers made use of them.
    Horns were traded with charger heads in place.  At least as early as 1805,
HBC was ordering horns with "brass mountings", surviving specimens show a
brass ring around the large end of the horn, brass eyelets for the carrying
strap, and an adjustable brass charger head.  Similar horns were traded in
the US, and were available in St Louis in quantities that would indicate
they were trade items.
    By "brass thingy" were you referring to one of those priming valves as
sold by TOTW and other suppliers?  Most likely, those are a recent
innovation.  They incorporate a fine coil spring, and the work that went
into making those ca 1830 makes it unlikely they were in use.
    Plus they can gum up badly in humid weather.

>    My point:  while visiting New Orleans some years ago we went to a museum
>where I saw a "horn" made entirely out of metal.  It looked like tin or
>tinned steel.  It was not designed to imitate a natural horn but was,
>instead, strictly utilitarian.
    From your description, I'm not sure if the item you refer to is shaped
like a horn or if it is more flask-shaped.
    Most of the early metal flasks (actually, every one I have seen or seen
referenced) were of copper, brass, or silver.  These metals offer a number
of advantages: soft, easy to form, easy to join, non-ferrous (so no rust
and no sparks).  These were traded to some extent in the west, at least one
is mentioned at Fort Union (sorry, don't recall the date).
    All of the iron or tinned iron "horns" with which I am familiar post-date
the Civil War.  During the Victorian era, curio cabinets became
popular--most of the tinned horns were intended for these.  I used to know
a guy who collected these (he must have had 40 or 50 of 'em).  According to
him, all of the specimens he had seen were machine-made and had seams like
a tin can-folded and soldered.  In the times I examined his collection, I
never saw any indication the horns had been used to hold powder.

>    If he had one, it is possible some trappers might have had some also.
>    We do not always know what 'they' might have had.  I believe we should
>not become fixed in our concepts of how 'they' lived and what 'they' had.
>Romanticism is fun but history is constantly evolving with new found
>information.
    It has always seemed easier to me to do the research first, then acquire
equipment.  Trying to make equipment fit research leads to too many
rationalizations.
LongWalker c. du B.


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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:09:53 -0600
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Women's Clothing

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Not any way to detract from the good advice given here or in the Books =
recommended, but I would like to list some other sources for information =
about women's clothing and a few conjectures that may open a debate.

By far the largest number of women involved in the fur trade were at =
least part Indian. If a modern blonde haired blue eyed woman wants to =
play that part I say have at it. It is my assumption that most of the =
trappers involved were between twenty and forty and a lot of them were =
also Indians and part bloods. From what some of the boys on this group =
have indicated they have been forty before and arn't going back. Their =
blonde (grey) hair wont keep them from playing a part and neither should =
a woman's. (Hopefully the word "play" does not insult anyone)

In that light, I would suggest AJ Millers notes and painting. He is a =
romantic with artistic license but he is one of the few we have. He also =
painted a lot of woman. Both he and Kurtz pictured a lot of those women =
either nude or topless. Something I would like to encourage as "very =
authentic to the period".<BG> Outside of that he show both skirts and =
dresses and gives some detailed descriptions (for instance Plate 72 in =
The West of AJM ).=20

Secondly, Don Berry in Majority of Scoundrels quotes Irving who =
supposedly quotes Bonneville who was there and describes a free trappers =
wife in detail. (317) That is not exactly clear documentation but as =
Berry says "(it) is among the best we have".

If I may paraphrase a lot they describe a long haired woman who loves =
rich bright colors, hawk bells, rings, trinkets, etc and in a big way. =
She is wearing a "red, green or sometimes gray cloth (robe)", although =
the paintings usually look more like leather. Her saddles and equipage =
are very distinctive and functional.=20

This kind of get up might be too gaudy for some, and to immodest for =
others. But it is my two cents whether it is worth that or not.

YMOS

WY


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<P>Not any way to detract from the good advice given here or in the =
Books=20
recommended, but I would like to list some other sources for information =
about=20
women’s clothing and a few conjectures that may open a debate.</P>
<P>By far the largest number of women involved in the fur trade were at =
least=20
part Indian. If a modern blonde haired blue eyed woman wants to play =
that part I=20
say have at it. It is my assumption that most of the trappers involved =
were=20
between twenty and forty and a lot of them were also Indians and part =
bloods.=20
From what some of the boys on this group have indicated they have been =
forty=20
before and arn’t going back. Their blonde (grey) hair wont keep =
them from=20
playing a part and neither should a woman’s. (Hopefully the word =
"play" does not=20
insult anyone)</P>
<P>In that light, I would suggest AJ Millers notes and painting. He is a =

romantic with artistic license but he is one of the few we have. He also =
painted=20
a lot of woman. Both he and Kurtz pictured a lot of those women either =
nude or=20
topless. Something I would like to encourage as "very authentic to the=20
period".<BG> Outside of that he show both skirts and dresses and =
gives=20
some detailed descriptions (for instance Plate 72 in The West of AJM ). =
</P>
<P>Secondly, Don Berry in Majority of Scoundrels quotes Irving who =
supposedly=20
quotes Bonneville who was there and describes a free trappers wife in =
detail.=20
(317) That is not exactly clear documentation but as Berry says "(it) is =
among=20
the best we have".</P>
<P>If I may paraphrase a lot they describe a long haired woman who loves =
rich=20
bright colors, hawk bells, rings, trinkets, etc and in a big way. She is =
wearing=20
a "red, green or sometimes gray cloth (robe)", although the paintings =
usually=20
look more like leather. Her saddles and equipage are very distinctive =
and=20
functional. </P>
<P>This kind of get up might be too gaudy for some, and to immodest for =
others.=20
But it is my two cents whether it is worth that or not.</P>
<P>YMOS</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:52:28 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]

Top of the morning to you Concho Smith,

After this post I am out the door and on my way to shoot with Don King.  Don
was noted as being one of the best of the best of the makers on the MLML
list of artists in the craft.  We talk about friendship in the 50s so I can
relate that to my experiences here in Montana and the growth I have been
witnessing from here.  A lot on neat stuff going on.  I am glad for Buck.  I
remember Big Daddy and my 63 ramcharger that I traded for a jeep.   The
gourd/s conversation can wait.  Thanks, see ya down the trail.
Walt
Park City, Montana



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Concho Smith" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 8:53 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]


Hey Walt,

I know what your saying and understand what Buck is saying about how the
trade
of different things could and did put items in uncommon places, anyway Buck
won't be around for a few days to reply.

He was invited with about 25-30 other drag racers from the USA and Canada
(Super Stock drivers from the early sixties, like Sox & Martin, Jenkins, and
so on) to a convention in Vineland NJ, he left last night, said would try
and
get back by Tue. - will call me after todays meetings.





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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:12:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson's guns

I always thought that "Crow Killer" was a fictional
story, but well researched.  After the fur trade,
Johnson was a Union army veteran, from Missouri if I
remember right, who was discharged for trying to scalp
some dead Confederate soldiers.  He went on to become
Sheriff in Red Lodge Mont., and your picture is
probably from that period.  Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
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Date: 14 May 00 13:53:18 EDT
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gourds Buck[OFF TOPIC]]

"Walt Foster" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Top of the morning to you Concho Smith, can relate that to my experiences=
 here
in Montana and the growth I have been witnessing from here.  A lot on nea=
t
stuff going on.  I am glad for Buck.  I remember Big Daddy and my 63
ramcharger that I traded for a jeep...........
Thanks, see ya down the trail.
Walt
Park City, Montana
- --------------------------------------------
OFF TOPIC
If you had a ramcharger Walt, you'll remember "Harrop the Arab", "The
Ramchargers" and "The Dodge Boys". Buck grew up living next door to Jenki=
ns,
"Mr. 409", "The Dodge Boys" and Grumpy's Toys", he filled in on driving w=
hen
needed if running more than one car, pretty cool.
ONLY ANSWERED TO SAVE MANY E-MAILS ANSWERING SO MANY THAT WHERE INTERESTE=
D IN
WHAT SOME HAVE DONE IN OTHER AREAS, SORRY-BACK TO HISTORY.




____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:37:28 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country

I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like =
something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my =
favorite places.
Lanney Ratcliff


- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:53 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: What a country


> Hello the camp,
>=20
> One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here =
in
> the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass =
along a
> little of my appreciation.
>=20
> Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least =
250
> antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had =
a real
> close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area, =
glimpsed
> at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction =
of
> the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's =
and
> Lewis Fork.
>=20
> What a country!  Waugh!
>=20
> Allen=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:00:22 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)

You are right, the coins lose their "golden" luster almost immediately.  =
That coating is only about a zillionth of an inch thick.  The coins look =
and feel pretty good and are accepted readidly around here.  They are =
available in this area in almost any quanity at the bank.  If they =
aren't available in your area send me a pre-addressed, stamped envelope =
(with a dollar!) and I will send you one.
Lanney Ratcliff
1008 N. Robinson
Cleburne, Texas  76031


- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sacagawea (was: The New Gold Dollar Coin)


> Just a quick note.....  if you've had one of the new dollar coins they
> don't look 'Gold" for long...they tarnish quickly...not a good tribute =
to
> an American Hero.....   Birdwoman.....        hardtack
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:19:07 -0700
From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country

Lanney it is beautifiul country.  Hoback, who had some straving times and
died not so far away, might not fine the peaceful part so accurate.
Regards,  Paul


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a country


I have always sensed big medicine along the Hoback.  Just seems like
something's watching over the place.  Strong and peaceful.  One of my
favorite places.
Lanney Ratcliff


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:53 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: What a country


> Hello the camp,
>
> One of the subsribers to this list noted how lucky we are to live here in
> the US.  I hope you all appreciate how right he is.  I want to pass along
a
> little of my appreciation.
>
> Today 3 of my buddies and I drove up to Pinedale, Wyoming to visit the
> Museum of the Mountain Man for some business.  Anyway, we saw at least 250
> antelope at various places, over 100 head of deer, several moose, had a
real
> close up of 6 bighorn sheep playing on the road.  We stopped by Fort
> Bonneville, overlooked the Green River/Horse Creek rendezvous area,
glimpsed
> at the Tetons, went through Jackson's Little Hole, passed the junction of
> the Hoback and the Lewis Fork, then the junction of the Salt, Gray's and
> Lewis Fork.
>
> What a country!  Waugh!
>
> Allen
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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