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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #542
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Thursday, May 11 2000 Volume 01 : Number 542
In this issue:
-áááááá MtMan-List: John (aka Jeremiah) Johnston's Guns
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Barrels
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:51:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: John (aka Jeremiah) Johnston's Guns
according to the book Crow Killer they were a .30 cal Hawken and a Colt
Walker. don't remember reading anywhere where the Hawken brothers made a
.30 cal rifle? Also only about 1,100 Walkers were ever manufactured -
and that was solely in the year 1847. Also picture in front of book
shows Johnston standing and holding a Winchester Model 1876 rifle. Any
insights from the camp or list would be appreciated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:24:15 -0600
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage
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Mr Kanger was kind enough to give instructions on making cordage with a =
couple of sticks, but he assumed you have some nice long strings to =
start with. Cordage can be constructed with fibers (horse hair) much =
shorter and with a similar stick. The wife and I made one during half =
time during the superbowl this year(I'm the only guy I know who asks his =
wife whos who and whats what in televised sports) . OK it took longer =
than that, but not that much. I would like to make another one, all I =
have to do is find Buck's or Crazy's ramuda and harvest the manes and =
tails <G>.
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<DIV>
<P>Mr Kanger was kind enough to give instructions on making cordage with =
a=20
couple of sticks, but he assumed you have some nice long strings to =
start with.=20
Cordage can be constructed with fibers (horse hair) much shorter and =
with a=20
similar stick. The wife and I made one during half time during the =
superbowl=20
this year(I'm the only guy I know who asks his wife whos who and whats =
what in=20
televised sports) . OK it took longer than that, but not that much. I =
would like=20
to make another one, all I have to do is find Buck’s or Crazy's =
ramuda and=20
harvest the manes and tails <G>.</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:42:33 -0500
From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
=3D)
No offense taken Larry.
I'll end my contribution to the discussion with that. Who knows, mebbe =
one of these years I will run into some folks around a fire somewhere. =
I certainly hope to.
Well, it's late, and I reckon I'll shut down for the evening. God =
bless all, and good night.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry =
pendleton
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:24 PM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> Todd,
> That last paragraph was not aimed at you personally. Just blowing =
off
> more steam.
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton <yrrw@airmail.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> Todd,
> I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this=20
> subject, but one
> point you made is at the center of what riles me the most. That=20
> is the fact
> that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive =
Rendezvous
> ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins=20
> is complete
> with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking
> around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though =
primitive
> dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling =
flea
> market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do =
with
> the Fur Trade. The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840=20
> then stick
> with it, is right on.
> I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments.=20
> Honest I
> didn't. I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a=20
> comment about
> things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get =
ripped. I
> know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is
> different, and I respect that. I know that everyone doesn't feel the =
need
> to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack =
of
> authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, =
Fashion
> Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to =
walk
> the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we=20
> bit you on
> the butt.
> With that I'll shut up, for now anyway.
> Pendleton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net>
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:06 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
>=20
>=20
> Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the =
adult
> survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another=20
> story. Child
> mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some =
parts
> of the world.
>=20
> That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA=20
> event, and
> the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have=20
> been less so
> had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were =
browbeating
> others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a=20
> legitimate point to
> make. If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then=20
> do as much
> as you can. Don't fudge it if you can avoid it.
> At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand=20
> that some of
> us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there.
> If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and =
dandy.
> As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be =
somewhere
> down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are =
dedicated to
> studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. =
Mayhaps
> our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available.
> Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you want is to
> attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I can see =
how
> some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a =
good
> time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress
> though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody gave me any
> grief, so I won't give anyone any.
>=20
> So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to =
learn.
> Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes.
> Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where =
the
> others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840,=20
> stick with it.
> If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's plenty =
of
> shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule.
>=20
> Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live =
in
> Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas=20
> =3D), but as
> I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment. =20
> It ruined
> the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed.
>=20
>=20
> Todd
>=20
> > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple.
> > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around
> > with original
> > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more=20
> authentic to the
> > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the
> > past--and the more you can learn.
> > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in
> > teeth from the
> > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing =
the
> > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken
> > managed to
> > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological =
record.
> > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times
> > to believe your
> > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it=20
> ain't what the
> > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find =
inside.
> > LongWalker c. du B.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:29:03 -0600
From: Bobbie <bobbiel@dim.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
Ole wrote:
>Bobbie,
>Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway?
Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It seems
to have escaped everyone else on this list.
As I said previously, I have always just deleted these things. This
time, that rude comment about "leaving" really got to me, and I thought,
and still think, that should be clarified. I belive that an apology is
owed. But, obviously, since it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other
to most of the folks here, I will leave of my own accord. As I said, I
sure don't want to be where I'm not wanted.
I said in my original response to that uncalled for and haughty demand,
there are many things in my life which others have no way of knowing. To
judge me and others in such a dismissive way is just low. There are times
when I think people should know the results of their actions and words, and
this is one of them.
Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't
afford to lose anymore. They have so little.
So, while you all enjoy your superiority, and your sociopathic joy of
"riling" people up, there are others suffering. I prefer to spend my time
with people who have hearts and compassion.
I and several others I've met at Rendezvous have physical handicaps
that prevents us from being as perfect as all of you. I still desired to
learn what I could, and to do the best that I can. No more. I no longer
give a rip. I have no more desire to know about history. What I value is
people who can care about more than looking down their noses at people who
they perceive as beneath them.
The last Rendezvous I attended, I left home with another one of the
controversies raging on this list. Name calling, tantrums, etc. At the
Rendezvous, there were people planning a benefit for children dying of
cancer. Now, it just doesn't take a lot of sensitivity to have some sense
of what is really important. History be damned. Give me humans with some
soul anyday. From now on, I will proudly be with those in chrome tan who
care about other human beings.
So long,
Bobbie
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:54:07 -0700
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage
walt---hope to make it to the shining mountains in october or novenmer
to hunt with my brother in law that lives in haver---we hunt the breaks
and bob marshal and also up around hungry horse area will put up smoke
if i get in the area---
BTW do you know tom ballard in helena---
HAWK
Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:34:47 -0700
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage
start with a figure 8 starting on the left hand fork going away from you
take the loose long end of the string and lay above the rh fork then lift
the original figure eight over the top and then rotate the fork then
continue on you are started---
HAWK
Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684
E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
On Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:28 EDT GHickman@aol.com writes:
>
> They are carried by Smoke and Fire: http://www.smoke-fire.com. Now
> that you
> guys have been talking about them, I got mine out, but can't
> remember how to
> make it work.
>
> Ghosting Wolf
>
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:13:51 -0400
From: "D Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
Bill,
The flying machine experiment dinnit work, eh?
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
"Knowing how is just the beginning"
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:16:48 -0000
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Barrels
Rolling barrels is Right. That was before fork lifts, so making the
shipping container also the vehicle was the ingenious way to go.
YMOS
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
llsi@texas.net writes:
> So why did they go to the expense of crafting a barrel to hold something
like nails when a wooden box
> would be easier to make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer?
Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled? Barney
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 05:27:13 -0700
From: Julia <sirovetz@proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis
My heart goes to you, Bobbie,
> Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It seems
>to have escaped everyone else on this list.
I was not lost on me, but I have never been made welcome on this
list, so I offer very little. I have been very tempted to withdraw
from this list over the list over this too.
> Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames.
>Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that
>it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest
>counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't
>afford to lose anymore. They have so little.
Tears fill my eyes, I want to help! What can I do? Let me know!
All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL tragedy strikes.
If it is raising money or goods, I will do it.
Give me details, I want to do what will help!
Julia
in Oregon
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:29:58 -0600
From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I'm not sure I was thinking at all, crawling around on the framing =
wearing shorts, a tee shirt, and river sandals. Waugh!
-----Original Message-----
From: Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
=20
=20
Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa? You are just like me....still think =
it's 1963.
YMOS
Lanney
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill Cunningham=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
=20
=20
Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. =
Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really =
screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and =
picked up some dandy bruises.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
<hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
=20
=20
Bill,
=20
I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the =
basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined =
by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be =
called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to =
some tatting techniques?
=20
Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, =
I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a =
chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on =
dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire =
length. I've always considered it decorative. =20
=20
John...
=20
=20
At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:
=20
Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and =
keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as =
kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this =
is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from =
the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like =
you have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new =
cordage tool?
Bill
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
<hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
=20
Bill,
=20
I see this differently.
=20
Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over =
12" long? Nice if you can get it but 6" works.
=20
Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is =
readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, =
points and fletchings.
=20
Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) =
is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use =
it in long lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.
=20
For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of =
such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, =
intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In =
todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling =
wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use =
what you find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop =
spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would =
have taught -- those born to the period.
=20
Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and =
bind more securely than any nylon fastening. =20
=20
How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over =
a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with =
meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items.
=20
At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is =
not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is =
used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than =
convenience. =20
=20
I've used it but, could never find a real =
justification for it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 =
spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now. Must have figured =
I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last.
=20
I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of =
unwaxed 4 strand twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads =
and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I =
need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is =
appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in =
varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. =
I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). =
Wax it as you work. =20
=20
If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is =
slower if the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when =
doing a full saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut =
and used in shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work =
will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly =
tangled.
=20
I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 =
1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has =
made the one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well =
for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20
=20
A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can =
serve to spin your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. =
A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you =
really need to make a lot of thread.
=20
At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax =
(or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and =
heavier cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. =
Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.
=20
Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to =
rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A =
set of skills nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire =
if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.
=20
The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. =
Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be =
certain. It is about being absolutely certain.
=20
John...
=20
Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large =
commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter.
=20
=20
=20
At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
=20
I was watching that antiques roadshow program =
one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked =
nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed =
him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, =
which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy =
just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true =
survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take =
care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is =
typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you =
carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small =
coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical =
authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some =
cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill C
=20
=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I'm not sure I was thinking at all, =
crawling=20
around on the framing wearing shorts, a tee shirt, and river sandals.=20
Waugh!</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Ratcliff <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:rat@htcomp.net">rat@htcomp.net</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:41 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa? You are =
just like=20
me....still think it's 1963.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:bcunningham@gwe.net" =
title=3Dbcunningham@gwe.net>Bill=20
Cunningham</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 10, =
2000 10:34=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Artificial=20
Sinew (was saws)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks for the information. =
I think I=20
will pass on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - =
fell=20
off the barn and really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I =
think, just=20
lost lots of skin and picked up some dandy bruises.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>John Kramer <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
</B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:=20
MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was =
saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I've not done much but observe =
luzets. The=20
technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by =
having=20
circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the =
thread is=20
worked around. It could be called crocheting in the=20
round. Isn't this pretty closely related to some =
tatting=20
techniques?<BR><BR>Someone who has used luzets may have a =
differing=20
experience, I've given it little attention because it =
appeared to me=20
too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools =
make, or=20
the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread =
breaks=20
you lose the entire length. I've always considered it=20
decorative. <BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><BR>At 07:19 AM =
5/10/00=20
-0600, you wrote:<BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>Wow! Thanks =
for the=20
information! I am printing this and keeping it. =
Actually, I do=20
carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I =
think it=20
still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, =
I've=20
never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff =
from the=20
fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It =
sounds=20
like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you =
think of=20
Buck's new cordage tool?</FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>Bill</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT face=3Darial=20
size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>John Kramer <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
</B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>Re:=20
MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was =
saws)<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>Bill,<BR><BR>I see this =
differently.<BR><BR>Why would=20
you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12"=20
long? Nice if you can get it but 6"=20
works.<BR><BR>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a =
bowstring=20
is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when =
used for=20
serving strings, points and =
fletchings.<BR><BR>Electrician's=20
shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in =
long=20
lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to =
use it in=20
long lengths? If you don't heat weld the =
knots, they=20
come undone.<BR><BR>For threads, snares, lines and =
every=20
other kind of such -- many other materials are =
useful as=20
cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, =
hides;=20
all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays =
mountains=20
no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling =
wire=20
&/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure =
it's=20
fair to use what you find, so much we find is=20
different. Field expedient drop spindles can =
be=20
readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother =
would have=20
taught -- those born to the period.<BR><BR>Rawhide =
and sinew=20
can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely =
than any=20
nylon fastening. <BR><BR>How does a coil of =
nylon=20
improve survivability over a small wad of easily =
replaced=20
sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, =
guts, hide,=20
bone and fat; other handy survival items.<BR><BR>At =
best=20
artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not=20
demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes =
for=20
which it is used. It offers no particular =
survival=20
advantage other than convenience. =
<BR><BR>I've=20
used it but, could never find a real justification =
for=20
it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it =
(1=20
spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years =
now. =20
Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I =
put it=20
away last.<BR><BR>I use linen for convenience. =
I have=20
a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist. For fine =
sewing I=20
split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread =
on the=20
turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a =
heavy=20
thread I untwist and spin together as many strands =
as is=20
appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. =
You can=20
buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in =
left or=20
right hand twist, on each spool. I find it =
easiest to=20
have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in =
reworking). Wax=20
it as you work. <BR><BR>If I need 5, 6, or ? =
strand --=20
I make it. Sewing is slower if the thread is =
too=20
long. 36" of thread is only needed when =
doing a=20
full saddle stitch. For all other sewing =
threads are=20
best cut and used in shorter lengths. Use a =
second=20
thread if needed, the work will progress with =
greater ease=20
when the thread isn't getting constantly =
tangled.<BR><BR>I=20
have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 =
1/4"=20
+/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on =
the=20
trail has made the one ball last for years. I =
have a=20
small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do =
linen=20
and nylon cannot,. <BR><BR>A convenient rock, =
or=20
stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your =
thread. =20
A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A =
spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the =
same,=20
useful if you really need to make a lot of =
thread.<BR><BR>At=20
some point it is instructive to acquire some flax =
(or any=20
other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making =
thread and=20
heavier cordage from the beginning. Braiding =
is=20
another cordage skill. Spun materials can be =
re-spun=20
and/or braided as best suits the =
work.<BR><BR>Cordage is=20
critical to survival. From thread to rope the =
skills=20
acquired are complimentary and equally=20
necessary. A set of skills nearly as =
important=20
as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all =
you have=20
is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand=20
drill.<BR><BR>The convenience of artificial sinew is =
seductive. Using it risks not learning all the =
lessons=20
required for one to be certain. It is about =
being=20
absolutely certain.<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR>Note: the =
spools=20
of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones =
about=20
4" long and 3" in =
diameter.<BR><BR><BR><BR>At=20
08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT size=3D2>I was =
watching=20
that antiques roadshow program one time and a =
guy=20
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really =
looked nice=20
and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique=20
guy showed him that it was factory tanned =
leather, sewed=20
with artificial sinew, which he explained was a =
hi-tech=20
modern product. You could see the guy just =
wither. But=20
it brought to mind a couple of questions. In =
true=20
survival situations, would you be able to obtain =
enough=20
sinew to take care of whatever it might be that =
you'd=20
need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" =
long or=20
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would =
you carry=20
15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather,=20
perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which =
is=20
infinitely long? Historical authenticity is =
great and a=20
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some =
cases, your=20
budget) depended on it?</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill=20
C</BLOCKQUOTE><B><BR></B></FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><BR>Use it up,=20
wear it out, make do, or do without.<BR>John =
Kramer =20
<kramer@kramerize.com>=20
=
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><=
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