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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #541 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, May 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 541 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:00:14 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 > By that I meant the compact machines that make continuous rope and roll it > up as it is made. They did have machines in the rope walks to twist the > fibers and cords like you described, but to make a 100 fathom rope they had > to make it all in one 1000 foot line before they could put it on a roll. Iron Burner, OK, I see what your talking about. They used rope machines like the Boy Scouts and Cub Scout Dads use but had to do the rope Walk thing where you make the rope in one long piece. Got'cha. <G> I > learned a few sea chantys that I wailed around a rendezvous fire last > weekend too! I'd love to hear you sing some sea chanty's around the fire. We have a small Party out here, The Black River Party whose young members can sing some great original drinking songs. I hope they are in fine form for the AMM Western this summer in Idaho, cause it is a treat to hear them come to your fire. Makes the ladies blush too. <G> > > I learned something about barrels too. They put solid things in barrels as > well as liquid things. So why did they go to the expense of crafting a > barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to > make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? --- Final Answer? Final Answer? They are strong, can be moved regardless of how much they weigh just by rolling. They pack into ship holds tighter than rectangles do. They can be used to ship most anything be it liquid or solid. They require no metal to make. They can be reused easily for other goods in the opposite direction, etc. Though they are labor intensive to build, that is often the better way in consideration of civilization and cultural conditions, remember labor was cheaper than metal for much of early history. It can be a cottage industry without the investment in tooling and dependence on other suppliers (for the nails and the flat sawn wood used in boxes as an example). Hope that helps answer the question. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:34:03 -0600 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. Right now = I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really screwed = myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and picked up = some dandy bruises. -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Bill, =20 I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis = for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by = two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be = called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to = some tatting techniques? =20 Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've = given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a = chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on = dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire = length. I've always considered it decorative. =20 =20 John... =20 =20 At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping = it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I = think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've = never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the = fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you = have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new = cordage tool? Bill =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 Bill, =20 I see this differently. =20 Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" = long? Nice if you can get it but 6" works. =20 Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily = done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and = fletchings. =20 Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy = in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long = lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. =20 For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- = many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, = intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In = todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling = wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use = what you find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop = spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would = have taught -- those born to the period. =20 Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more = securely than any nylon fastening. =20 =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small = wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, = hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. =20 At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not = demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is = used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than = convenience. =20 =20 I've used it but, could never find a real justification for = it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a = lifetime) in better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be = needing it when I put it away last. =20 I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 = strand twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and = re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need = a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is = appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in = varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. = I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). = Wax it as you work. =20 =20 If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower = if the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a = full saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used = in shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will = progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly = tangled. =20 I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- = dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the = one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the = things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20 =20 A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to = spin your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A = spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you = really need to make a lot of thread. =20 At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any = other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier = cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun = materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. =20 Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the = skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of = skills nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all = you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. =20 The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it = risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It = is about being absolutely certain. =20 John... =20 Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large = commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. =20 =20 =20 At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time = and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and = he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that = it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he = explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just = wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival = situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of = whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically = 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 = feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of = artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is = great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your = budget) depended on it? Bill C =20 =20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Thanks for the information. I think = I will pass=20 on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn = and=20 really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of = skin and=20 picked up some dandy bruises.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 John Kramer <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>> T= o:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws) </DIV><FONT=20 size=3D3>Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. = The=20 technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having = circular=20 areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked=20 around. It could be called crocheting in the round. = Isn't this=20 pretty closely related to some tatting techniques? Someone = who has=20 used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little = attention=20 because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the = awl-for-awl=20 tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one = thread=20 breaks you lose the entire length. I've always considered it=20 decorative. John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 = - -0600, you=20 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Wow! Thanks for the=20 information! I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do = carry a=20 small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think it still is,=20 squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never really = used it.=20 Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on the = coast of=20 Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really worked = this=20 stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage = tool?<FONT=20 size=3D3> Bill <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>-----Original Message----- From: = John Kramer=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>> T= o:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re:=20 MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) <FONT=20 size=3D3>Bill, I see this differently. Why = would you=20 ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? = Nice if=20 you can get it but 6" works. Certainly not for = sewing,=20 splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self = gluing=20 when used for serving strings, points and=20 fletchings. Electrician's shooting line (aka, = artificial=20 sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you = really=20 need to use it in long lengths? If you don't heat weld = the=20 knots, they come undone. For threads, snares, lines = and every=20 other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as = cordage,=20 horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds = of=20 stuff makes cordage. In todays mountains no one is = ever very=20 far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which = can serve=20 many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much = we find=20 is different. Field expedient drop spindles can be = readily=20 fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- = those=20 born to the period. Rawhide and sinew can be made to = seize=20 tighter and bind more securely than any nylon = fastening. =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over = a small=20 wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free = with=20 meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival=20 items. At best artificial sinew is a = convenience. It is=20 not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for = which=20 it is used. It offers no particular survival advantage = other=20 than convenience. I've used it but, = could never=20 find a real justification for it. I haven't been able = to find=20 my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 = years=20 now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I = put it=20 away last. I use linen for convenience. I have = a spool=20 of unwaxed 4 strand twist. For fine sewing I split = lengths to=20 two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop = spindle I use=20 at home. If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin = together=20 as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the = work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers of = strands, in=20 left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it = easiest to=20 have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax = it as=20 you work. If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I = make=20 it. Sewing is slower if the thread is too long. = 36"=20 of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle = stitch. For=20 all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter=20 lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will = progress=20 with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly=20 tangled. I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed = thread (1=20 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed = on the=20 trail has made the one ball last for years. I have a = small wad=20 of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon=20 cannot,. A convenient rock, or stick, or = whatever (?)=20 can serve to spin your thread. A made drop spindle is = nice to=20 have at home. A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer = to do=20 the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of=20 thread. At some point it is instructive to acquire = some flax=20 (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making = thread and=20 heavier cordage from the beginning. Braiding is = another=20 cordage skill. Spun materials can be re-spun and/or = braided as=20 best suits the work. Cordage is critical to = survival. =20 From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary = and=20 equally necessary. A set of skills nearly as = important=20 as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you have = is wood:=20 a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. The=20 convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it = risks=20 not learning all the lessons required for one to be = certain. =20 It is about being absolutely = certain. John... Note:=20 the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial = ones about=20 4" long and 3" in diameter. At = 08:50 AM=20 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>I was watching = that=20 antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in = an=20 Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was = sure he=20 had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that = it was=20 factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, = which he=20 explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see = the guy=20 just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of = questions. In=20 true survival situations, would you be able to obtain = enough=20 sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd = need it=20 for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and = splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet = or so in=20 your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil = of=20 artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20 authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your = life (or=20 in some cases, your budget) depended on it?<FONT=20 size=3D3> Bill=20 C</BLOCKQUOTE> Use it = up, wear it=20 out, make do, or do without. John Kramer =20 <kramer@kramerize.com>=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:33:38 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa? You are just like me....still think = it's 1963. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:34 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. Right now = I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really screwed = myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and picked up = some dandy bruises. -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis = for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by = two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be = called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to = some tatting techniques? Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've = given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a = chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on = dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire = length. I've always considered it decorative. =20 John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping = it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I = think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've = never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the = fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you = have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new = cordage tool? Bill -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill, I see this differently. Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? = Nice if you can get it but 6" works. Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; = & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and = fletchings. Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in = long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long = lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many = other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, = vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays = mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or = twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you = find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can = be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- = those born to the period. Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more = securely than any nylon fastening. =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad = of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, = hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not = demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is = used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than = convenience. =20 I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. = I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in = better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it = when I put it away last. I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand = twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the = thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy = thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in = lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers = of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it = easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as = you work. =20 If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if = the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full = saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in = shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress = with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., = in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one = ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things = it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20 A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin = your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning = wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need = to make a lot of thread. At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any = other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier = cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun = materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills = acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills = nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you = have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it = risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It = is about being absolutely certain. John... Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial = ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a = guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was = sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa? You are just = like=20 me....still think it's 1963.</DIV> <DIV>YMOS</DIV> <DIV>Lanney</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black">From:=20 <A href=3D"mailto:bcunningham@gwe.net" = title=3Dbcunningham@gwe.net>Bill=20 Cunningham</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">To: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 = 10:34=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew=20 (was saws)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the information. I = think I will=20 pass on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off = the barn=20 and really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots = of skin=20 and picked up some dandy bruises.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 John Kramer <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>> T= o:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws) </DIV><FONT=20 size=3D3>Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. = The=20 technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having = circular=20 areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked=20 around. It could be called crocheting in the round. = Isn't this=20 pretty closely related to some tatting techniques? Someone = who has=20 used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little = attention=20 because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the = awl-for-awl=20 tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one = thread=20 breaks you lose the entire length. I've always considered it=20 decorative. John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 = - -0600, you=20 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite" cite>Wow! Thanks for the = information!=20 I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small = coil of=20 what we called (as kids) and I think it still is, squidding line = in my=20 pouch. Strange this is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, = round=20 woven stuff from the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, = John. It=20 sounds like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you = think of=20 Buck's new cordage tool? <FONT=20 size=3D2>Bill <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite" cite>-----Original=20 Message----- From: John Kramer <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>> T= o:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill, I=20 see this differently. Why would you ever need a strand of = sinew=20 much over 12" long? Nice if you can get it but 6"=20 works. Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is = readily=20 done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, = points=20 and fletchings. Electrician's shooting line (aka, = artificial=20 sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you = really need=20 to use it in long lengths? If you don't heat weld the = knots, they=20 come undone. For threads, snares, lines and every other = kind of=20 such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, = bark,=20 intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes = cordage. =20 In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of = baling=20 wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's = fair to=20 use what you find, so much we find is different. Field = expedient=20 drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a = mother=20 would have taught -- those born to the period. Rawhide = and sinew=20 can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any = nylon=20 fastening. How does a coil of nylon improve = survivability=20 over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew = comes free=20 with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival=20 items. At best artificial sinew is a convenience. = It is not=20 demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which = it is=20 used. It offers no particular survival advantage other = than=20 convenience. I've used it but, could never = find a=20 real justification for it. I haven't been able to find my = spool of=20 it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now. = Must=20 have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away = last. I=20 use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 = strand=20 twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and = re-spin=20 the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I = need a=20 heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is=20 appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy = the=20 thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand = twist, on=20 each spool. I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed = (for=20 ease in reworking). Wax it as you work. If I = need 5,=20 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if the = thread is too=20 long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full = saddle=20 stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used = in=20 shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work = will=20 progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting = constantly=20 tangled. I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread = (1 1/4"=20 +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail = has made=20 the one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew = as well=20 for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. = A=20 convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin = your=20 thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. = A=20 spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if = you=20 really need to make a lot of thread. At some point it is=20 instructive to acquire some flax (or any other = spinable/twistable fiber)=20 and try making thread and heavier cordage from the = beginning. =20 Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun materials can be = re-spun=20 and/or braided as best suits the work. Cordage is = critical to=20 survival. From thread to rope the skills acquired are=20 complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills = nearly=20 as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all = you have=20 is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand = drill. The=20 convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it = risks not=20 learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. = It is=20 about being absolutely certain. John... Note: the = spools=20 of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long = and 3"=20 in diameter. At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you=20 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite" cite>I was watching = that antiques=20 roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow = quiver.=20 It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. = But the=20 antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, = sewed with=20 artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern = product. You=20 could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple = of=20 questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to = obtain=20 enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd = need it=20 for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing = it is=20 tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your = possibles pouch,=20 or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is=20 infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine = goal, but=20 what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on=20 it? Bill=20 C</BLOCKQUOTE> Use it up, = wear it out,=20 make do, or do without. John Kramer =20 <kramer@kramerize.com>=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>= - ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #541 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.