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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #540 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, May 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 540 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. -áááááá Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage -áááááá Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 -áááááá MtMan-List: western rendezvous -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:30:32 -0600 From: <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. Chance Tiffie wrote: > Bluelodge, > Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed > to set them, going to the Rockies. So much for un-shod horses. > Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I > get to shoe my mules. > > Cliff Tiffie > PO Box 5089 > Durant, OK > 74702 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Depending on the ground conditions, have read of many just shoeing the front feet only and using no shoes in the winter to save ice build up and accidents. Have done this for years with the 8-10 animals we had over a 15-18 year period, rocks kept the hoofs wore down on the rear and took very little trimming, plus with this number of horses it sure saved on shoeing bills every 6-7 weeks. Later Buck - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:32:33 -0600 From: <conner1@uswest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage "Paul W. Jones" wrote: > Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells > and so forth. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D Miles <deforge1@bright.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; <Wfoster@cw2.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage > > > Walt Wrote: > > > So what does D. camp look like? > > > > > > Walt, > > Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing > > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada > when > > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a > > canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in > > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by > > myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned > > where. What did you have in mind? > > Dennis > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html you missed the lollipops Mr. Jones !!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:41:24 -0400 From: "D Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage HE also forgot the bunny slippers.... But I stole 'em from his camp.. He said he bought 'em from some outfit called Clark & Son's....<G> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:34:15 -0500 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) - --=====================_23635653==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to some tatting techniques? Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire length. I've always considered it decorative. John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: >Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it. >Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think >it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never >really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on >the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really >worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool? >Bill >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Kramer <<mailto:kramer@kramerize.com>kramer@kramerize.com> >>To: <mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com >><<mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >>Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) >> >>Bill, >> >>I see this differently. >> >>Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? Nice if >>you can get it but 6" works. >> >>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew >>is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings. >> >>Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long >>lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long >>lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. >> >>For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other >>materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, >>weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays mountains no >>one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which >>can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we >>find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can be readily >>fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born >>to the period. >> >>Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely >>than any nylon fastening. >> >>How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily >>replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and >>fat; other handy survival items. >> >>At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not demonstrably >>superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used. It offers >>no particular survival advantage other than convenience. >> >>I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. I >>haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in >>better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it >>when I put it away last. >> >>I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand >>twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the >>thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy >>thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in >>lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers >>of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it >>easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as >>you work. >> >>If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if the thread >>is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle >>stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter >>lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with >>greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. >> >>I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my >>possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last >>for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do >>linen and nylon cannot,. >> >>A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your >>thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning wheel >>is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make >>a lot of thread. >> >>At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other >>spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from >>the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun materials can be >>re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. >> >>Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills acquired >>are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills nearly as >>important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: >>a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. >> >>The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it risks not >>learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It is about >>being absolutely certain. >> >>John... >> >>Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about >>4" long and 3" in diameter. >> >> >> >>At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >>>I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought >>>in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had >>>a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory >>>tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a >>>hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it >>>brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, >>>would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it >>>might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or >>>less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so >>>in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial >>>sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a >>>fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) >>>depended on it? >>>Bill C >> >> >>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >>John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> - --=====================_23635653==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to some tatting techniques? Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire length. I've always considered it decorative. John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite cite>Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool? Bill <blockquote type=cite cite>-----Original Message----- From: John Kramer <<a href="mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</a>> To: <a href="mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</a> <<a href="mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</a>> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill, I see this differently. Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? Nice if you can get it but 6" works. Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings. Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born to the period. Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any nylon fastening. How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than convenience. I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last. I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as you work. If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of thread. At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It is about being absolutely certain. John... Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite cite>I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it? Bill C</blockquote> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> </blockquote></blockquote></html> - --=====================_23635653==_.ALT-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:07:35 -0500 From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis amen and well said. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > hawknest4@juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 3:24 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >=20 >=20 > ole--- > well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each = other---NUFF > SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before = and > then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my > homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us = know > its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong = he > is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that > scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help = him > be period correct if i could help him--- >=20 > lets shake hands and close this one out guys--- >=20 > YMHOSANT > =3D+=3D > HAWK > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark = (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:=20 > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:08:06 -0500 From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the = adult survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another = story. Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still = is in some parts of the world. =20 That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, = and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have been = less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were = browbeating others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a = legitimate point to make. If you goal is to accurately depict a = previous time, then do as much as you can. Don't fudge it if you can = avoid it. At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that = some of us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy. As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere = down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated = to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. = Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it = available. Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you = want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I = can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit = I had a good time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an = air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody = gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any.=20 So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn. = Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the = others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with = it. If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's = plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live = in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas = =3D), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval = re-enactment. It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward = something I had enjoyed. Todd > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. =20 > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around=20 > with original > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to = the > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > past--and the more you can learn. =20 > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in=20 > teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken=20 > managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times=20 > to believe your > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what = the > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. = > LongWalker c. du B. >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:08:46 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage > If you are a group, and someone knows how to splice, then you can make each > man a "Ranger Rope" This is a 6 foot piece of rope with a loop in one end > and a toggle backspliced in the other end. You put the toggle of your > partners rope through the loop of your rope. In an 8 man team, you can > conveniently have 48 feet of useable rope distributed between the team. Friends, Now that you know how to make some rope the "Right Way" <G> if you are coming to the AMM Camp this summer in Idaho and don't know how to splice, look me up. I'd be pleased as punch/shrub to show you how to do it. Back splices, end splices loops, grommets, snells for your eyeless hooks and I'll even through in a Turks head and some other proper sailor knots that will do you proud. We'll sit down in the shade of a big old Idaho cedar with a cup of shrub and rum from the sutlers tent, poured by some of the lovelyest ladies this side of the Pacific shores and do a bit o' marlin spike seamship. As always, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:25:15 -0000 From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 Capt. Lahti' wrote: >Are you sure about rope twisting machines not being available during the >Rendezvous time period? I remain... By that I meant the compact machines that make continuous rope and roll it up as it is made. They did have machines in the rope walks to twist the fibers and cords like you described, but to make a 100 fathom rope they had to make it all in one 1000 foot line before they could put it on a roll. I would recommend Mystic sea village to anyone who happens to travel near. Worth a drive from Boston, Providence, or even NY City. They have several sailing ships, a cooper shop, woodcarving shop, blacksmith shop, etc.. I learned a few sea chantys that I wailed around a rendezvous fire last weekend too! I learned something about barrels too. They put solid things in barrels as well as liquid things. So why did they go to the expense of crafting a barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? --- Final Answer? YMOS Glenn Darilek Iron Burner - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:33 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 In a message dated 5/10/00 5:24:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, llsi@texas.net writes: > So why did they go to the expense of crafting a > barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to > make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled? Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:00:49 EDT From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 In a message dated 5/10/00 5:24:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, llsi@texas.net writes: > I learned something about barrels too. They put solid things in barrels as > well as liquid things. So why did they go to the expense of crafting a > barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to > make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? --- Final Answer? It can be rolled? Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for <A HREF="http://rutnut.com/octa/store/front.htm">OCTA's On-line Bookstore</A> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:08:15 -0500 From: jerry derringer <mtnman50@kiva.net> Subject: MtMan-List: western rendezvous Am I mixed up or what? I thought there was a Western rendezvous in Montana next year close to Glacier park. I just got a notice that NMLRA is going to have a Western at Avery in Arizona in 2001. need to get my fact straight, so I can plan vac for a Glacier park rondy?????? jd - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1980 13:13:07 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. Cliff Tiffie <bossloper@hotmail.com> wrote: >>Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed to set them, going to the Rockies. So much for un-shod horses. Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I get to shoe my mules.<< I'd be interested in hearing more about this, because my reading into the earlier Canadian fur trade period (1774-1821) has not yet turned up any references to horseshoes; in fact, some of my primary references talk about which kind of horses' hooves are the toughest, since they're not shod. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:45:17 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Todd, I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this subject, but one point you made is at the center of what riles me the most. That is the fact that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive Rendezvous ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins is complete with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though primitive dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling flea market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do with the Fur Trade. The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840 then stick with it, is right on. I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments. Honest I didn't. I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a comment about things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get ripped. I know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is different, and I respect that. I know that everyone doesn't feel the need to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack of authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, Fashion Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to walk the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we bit you on the butt. With that I'll shut up, for now anyway. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:06 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the adult survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another story. Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some parts of the world. That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have been less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were browbeating others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a legitimate point to make. If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then do as much as you can. Don't fudge it if you can avoid it. At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that some of us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy. As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available. Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a good time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any. So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn. Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with it. If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment. It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed. Todd > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around > with original > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > past--and the more you can learn. > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in > teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken > managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times > to believe your > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. > LongWalker c. du B. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:24:08 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Todd, That last paragraph was not aimed at you personally. Just blowing off more steam. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: larry pendleton <yrrw@airmail.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:47 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Todd, I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this subject, but one point you made is at the center of what riles me the most. That is the fact that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive Rendezvous ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins is complete with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though primitive dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling flea market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do with the Fur Trade. The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840 then stick with it, is right on. I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments. Honest I didn't. I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a comment about things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get ripped. I know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is different, and I respect that. I know that everyone doesn't feel the need to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack of authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, Fashion Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to walk the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we bit you on the butt. With that I'll shut up, for now anyway. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:06 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the adult survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another story. Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some parts of the world. That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have been less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were browbeating others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a legitimate point to make. If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then do as much as you can. Don't fudge it if you can avoid it. At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that some of us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy. As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available. Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a good time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any. So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn. Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with it. If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment. It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed. Todd > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around > with original > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > past--and the more you can learn. > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in > teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken > managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times > to believe your > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. > LongWalker c. du B. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #540 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.