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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #514 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, April 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 514 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: Saddles/Mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? -áááááá MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? -áááááá MtMan-List: What's all this hooter stuff anyway? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin -áááááá MtMan-List: water blasting tipi poles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 22:09:38 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles/Mecate This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF9C26.F8C65120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The history of the mecate being traced back to the Moors has been = disputed by some. My study was anything but comprehensive, and I think = we all know that the generally held, easily found, history can be pretty = inaccurate. But I read that the Moors did not believe in art work that = shows a human or animal form and the Christians are claimed to have = destroyed huge libraries of these infidels. So some question how much = horse gear the Mexican/Californios got from the Moors, but it is safe to = say that they, especially the Californios, perfected the use of = bosal/mecate/spade bit. And they impressed the hell out of our RMFT when = they got to California.=20 As to the use of the mecate in the fur trade, Meek may not be the best = reference in the history but he is still a primary source and better = than nothing and my referances to him show that a form of mecate was = being manufactured and in use. I think that is more than "illuminating", = I think it goes a long way to answering the question "...is the rein = (system) period correct in anyone's estimation..." Yup, Joe Meeks. WY - ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF9C26.F8C65120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> The history of the mecate being traced back to the Moors has been = disputed by=20 some. My study was anything but comprehensive, and I think we all know = that the=20 generally held, easily found, history can be pretty inaccurate. But I = read that=20 the Moors did not believe in art work that shows a human or animal form = and the=20 Christians are claimed to have destroyed huge libraries of these = infidels. So=20 some question how much horse gear the Mexican/Californios got from the = Moors,=20 but it is safe to say that they, especially the Californios, perfected = the use=20 of bosal/mecate/spade bit. And they impressed the hell out of our RMFT = when they=20 got to California. As to the use of the mecate in the fur trade, Meek may not be the = best=20 reference in the history but he is still a primary source and better = than=20 nothing and my referances to him show that a form of mecate was being=20 manufactured and in use. I think that is more than "illuminating", I = think it=20 goes a long way to answering the question "...is the rein (system) = period=20 correct in anyone's estimation..." Yup, Joe Meeks. WY</DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF9C26.F8C65120-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:29:15 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:46:14 -0600 "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> writes: Apparently they both use an alloy called 12L14, which has a high amount of lead put into it. This is to increase the machinibility. Even modern muzzleloader barrels are > soft soft soft. this material is dead soft and the lead makes it cut like a dream---most of the modern muzzle loading barrel makers are using it or another which is quite similar <snip> >Allthough since wrought iron has no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the > makers were just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that > was done. they were not really trying to change the hardness but to relieve the stresses in the barrel caused from the forgeing---the hoop stresses as bill usto call it <snip> > guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk > pointed out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy, > although I have never heard of the results of someone testing this. bill and I went thru that gyration several years ago was trying to get the right barrel for my buffilo gun---so he cut me 4 barrels to try all the same caliber and made with the same cutter and twist--- A. 1 reamed and rerifled or freshed out original cast steel barrel--- B. 1 12L14 barrel C. 1 stainless 302 barrel D. 1 modern tempered barrel NOTE (according to my shooting notes Dated(5 june 1965 ))I mounted them in a underhammer hopkins and allen shot them at 50 yds from a rest shot 10 shots then scowerbrighted the barrels and shot again---only for groop size---sights were epoxied on the barrels same set of sights used on all barrels---got to remember this was a time in my life where i was looking for all varables---even had a meter to tell me the moisture in the air or humidity and a thermometer on my shooting box this was done at the benchrest range in st charles mo-----usto ajust my powder charge according to the temperature and humidity----the test was done on the pistol range which was real protected for wind with a berm on each side including the back---(used for no wind zeroing) I had wind flags out and tried to shoot with the same indicators---I used a black sq of paper for a sighter point on a 6' sq piece of cardboard not worrying where the bullits hit just the groop size at 50 yds the sighter was the same width as my front sight and i would come up at a 6 o-clock and toutch the black - ---and the order of accuracy is as shown above and in that order---barrel cleaning was the same on all barrels---clean between each shot one wet patch and one dry patch-- the freshed barrel---would stack bullets had a groop of 5 that i could cover with a quarter th 12L14 had a groop just larger but almost a silver doller size with one wide shot the 302 stainless had a groop about 2 1/2 in in dia the hard tempered barrel had a groop about the size of a coffee can according to my shooting notes for the day I had 65% humidity---72 degree temperature at start of testing and 78deg at conclusion---.015 pillow ticking---70 gr of FFFG (same lot of powder)---grizz for lube---.535 roundball weighted to within 1 gr----barrel was rested on sandbags at about 4" from the crown ---all crowns were perfectly sq and crowned with a 320 grit ball cutter to about .060 wide---only variation in the barrels was that each had a different breach plug but fitted the same way they has a flat base inside the barrel nipple loaction was within .030 in order to align with the hammer. all groops were shot in 30 min relays---and the barrel not allowed to get warm to the touch---shot under a covered fireing line (no sight light chg) I usto always keep records of shooting and trying new stuff and have kina lapsed in my old age thinking it not necessary any more. and of course the passing of good eye-sight-- > Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet? got a small jake the big "boss Gobbler is still there waiting for me--- hope to go next week--- all the info i can provide at this time--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:31:49 -0500 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? - -----Original Message----- From: hawknest4@juno.com <hawknest4@juno.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: April 02, 2000 10:00 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? >I usto always keep records of shooting and trying new stuff and have kina >lapsed in my old age thinking it not necessary any more. and of course >the passing of good eye-sight-- Thanks for the information Hawk, now it's in my notes.... thats very interesting stuff. Reading that brings a lot of other questions to mind. I believe I read in Roberts book The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle that he thought that a lot of old time makers felt that a reamed and re-rifled barrel was the most accurate barrel. Seems to me it even said that some folks when getting a new rifle, would get it made with a slightly smaller bore size than they wanted, and then after a 100 or so shots they would bring it back and get it reamed and re-rifled. Claimed it would always shoot better when that was done. Maybe the firing of the gun had something to do with relieving the "hoop stresses" as you called them. Thanks again for the info, good luck next week when you go to visit Mr. Osceola, northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:33:17 -0600 From: Bobbie <bobbiel@dim.com> Subject: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin While at a Rendezvous work party yesterday, one of the guys asked me about the dyes used on buckskin, and I thought I'd ask the question here. He particularly wanted to know what is good to seal it with, so that it wouldn't get "hard" and crack or something like that. Any good tips on the various dyes for different colors would be very helpful to him. Thanks! Bobbie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:14:02 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01BF9DA0.C5BD29E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hawk, GREAT INFO ! ! ! !=20 Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: hawknest4@juno.com <hawknest4@juno.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, April 02, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? =20 =20 On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:46:14 -0600 "northwoods" = <northwoods@ez-net.com> writes: Apparently they both use an alloy called 12L14, which has a high = amount of lead put into it. This is to increase the machinibility. Even = modern muzzleloader barrels are=20 > soft soft soft. =20 this material is dead soft and the lead makes it cut like a = dream---most of the modern muzzle loading barrel makers are using it or another = which is quite similar =20 <snip> >Allthough since wrought iron has no carbon in it, it really = couldn't be to hard, unless the=20 > makers were just removing the work hardening from the repeated = forging that=20 > was done.=20 =20 they were not really trying to change the hardness but to relieve = the stresses in the barrel caused from the forgeing---the hoop stresses = as bill usto call it =20 <snip> > guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as = Hawk=20 > pointed out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy,=20 > although I have never heard of the results of someone testing = this.=20 =20 bill and I went thru that gyration several years ago was trying to = get the right barrel for my buffilo gun---so he cut me 4 barrels to try = all the same caliber and made with the same cutter and twist--- =20 A. 1 reamed and rerifled or freshed out original cast steel = barrel--- B. 1 12L14 barrel C. 1 stainless 302 barrel D. 1 modern tempered barrel =20 NOTE (according to my shooting notes Dated(5 june 1965 ))I mounted = them in a underhammer hopkins and allen shot them at 50 yds from a rest shot 10 shots then scowerbrighted the barrels and shot again---only = for groop size---sights were epoxied on the barrels same set of sights = used on all barrels---got to remember this was a time in my life where i = was looking for all varables---even had a meter to tell me the moisture = in the air or humidity and a thermometer on my shooting box this was = done at the benchrest range in st charles mo-----usto ajust my powder charge according to the temperature and humidity----the test was done on = the pistol range which was real protected for wind with a berm on each = side including the back---(used for no wind zeroing) I had wind flags out = and=20 tried to shoot with the same indicators---I used a black sq of paper = for a sighter point on a 6' sq piece of cardboard not worrying where = the bullits hit just the groop size at 50 yds the sighter was the same = width as my front sight and i would come up at a 6 o-clock and toutch the = black ---and the order of accuracy is as shown above and in that = order---barrel cleaning was the same on all barrels---clean between each shot one = wet patch and one dry patch-- =20 the freshed barrel---would stack bullets had a groop of 5 that i = could cover with a quarter=20 th 12L14 had a groop just larger but almost a silver doller size = with one wide shot the 302 stainless had a groop about 2 1/2 in in dia the hard tempered barrel had a groop about the size of a coffee can =20 according to my shooting notes for the day I had 65% humidity---72 degree temperature at start of testing and 78deg at = conclusion---.015 pillow ticking---70 gr of FFFG (same lot of powder)---grizz for lube---.535 roundball weighted to within 1 gr----barrel was rested = on sandbags at about 4" from the crown ---all crowns were perfectly sq = and crowned with a 320 grit ball cutter to about .060 wide---only = variation in the barrels was that each had a different breach plug but fitted = the same way they has a flat base inside the barrel nipple loaction was within .030 in order to align with the hammer. all groops were shot = in 30 min relays---and the barrel not allowed to get warm to the touch---shot under a covered fireing line (no sight light chg) =20 I usto always keep records of shooting and trying new stuff and have = kina lapsed in my old age thinking it not necessary any more. and of = course the passing of good eye-sight-- =20 > Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet? =20 got a small jake the big "boss Gobbler is still there waiting for = me--- hope to go next week--- =20 all the info i can provide at this time--- YMHOSANT =3D+=3D "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) = Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce =20 ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01BF9DA0.C5BD29E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Hawk,</DIV> <DIV> GREAT = INFO ! ! ! !=20 </DIV> <DIV>Pendleton</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 <A href=3D"mailto:hawknest4@juno.com">hawknest4@juno.com</A> = <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hawknest4@juno.com">hawknest4@juno.com</A>> To: = <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Sunday, April 02, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: GUN=20 BLUEING (and barrel accuracy)? </DIV>On Sat, 1 Apr = 2000=20 18:46:14 -0600 "northwoods" <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:northwoods@ez-net.com">northwoods@ez-net.com</A>> wr= ites: Apparently=20 they both use an alloy called 12L14, which has a high=20 amount of lead put into it. This is to increase the=20 machinibility. Even modern muzzleloader barrels are > soft = soft soft. this material is dead soft and the lead = makes it cut=20 like a dream---most of the modern muzzle loading barrel makers = are using=20 it or another which is quite = similar <snip> >Allthough=20 since wrought iron has no carbon in it, it really = couldn't be=20 to hard, unless the > makers were just removing the = work=20 hardening from the repeated forging that > was done. = they were not really trying to change the hardness but to = relieve=20 the stresses in the barrel caused from the forgeing---the hoop = stresses=20 as bill usto call it <snip> > guess they = wanted=20 barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk > = pointed =20 out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy, = >=20 although I have never heard of the results of someone testing = this.=20 bill and I went thru that gyration several years ago was = trying to=20 get the right barrel for my buffilo gun---so he cut me 4 barrels = to try=20 all the same caliber and made with the same cutter and = twist--- A.=20 1 reamed and rerifled or freshed out original cast steel=20 barrel--- B. 1 12L14 barrel C. 1 stainless 302=20 barrel D. 1 modern tempered barrel NOTE (according to my = shooting=20 notes Dated(5 june 1965 ))I mounted them in a underhammer hopkins = and=20 allen shot them at 50 yds from a rest shot 10 shots then = scowerbrighted=20 the barrels and shot again---only for groop size---sights were = epoxied on=20 the barrels same set of sights used on all barrels---got to = remember this=20 was a time in my life where i was looking for all varables---even = had a=20 meter to tell me the moisture in the air or humidity and a = thermometer on=20 my shooting box this was done at the benchrest range in st = charles=20 mo-----usto ajust my powder charge according to the temperature = and=20 humidity----the test was done on the pistol range which was real=20 protected for wind with a berm on each side including the = back---(used=20 for no wind zeroing) I had wind flags out and tried to shoot = with the=20 same indicators---I used a black sq of paper for a sighter = point on=20 a 6' sq piece of cardboard not worrying where the bullits hit = just the=20 groop size at 50 yds the sighter was the same width as my front = sight and=20 i would come up at a 6 o-clock and toutch the black ---and the = order of=20 accuracy is as shown above and in that order---barrel cleaning = was the=20 same on all barrels---clean between each shot one wet patch and = one dry=20 patch-- the freshed barrel---would stack bullets had a groop = of 5=20 that i could cover with a quarter th 12L14 had a groop just=20 larger but almost a silver doller size with one wide = shot the=20 302 stainless had a groop about 2 1/2 in in dia the hard = tempered=20 barrel had a groop about the size of a coffee = can according to=20 my shooting notes for the day I had 65% = humidity---72 degree=20 temperature at start of testing and 78deg at = conclusion---.015 pillow=20 ticking---70 gr of FFFG (same lot of powder)---grizz = for lube---.535=20 roundball weighted to within 1 gr----barrel was rested = on sandbags at=20 about 4" from the crown ---all crowns were perfectly sq = and crowned=20 with a 320 grit ball cutter to about .060 wide---only = variation in the=20 barrels was that each had a different breach plug but fitted = the same way=20 they has a flat base inside the barrel nipple loaction = was within=20 .030 in order to align with the hammer. all groops were shot = in 30=20 min relays---and the barrel not allowed to get warm to = the touch---shot=20 under a covered fireing line (no sight light chg) I usto = always keep=20 records of shooting and trying new stuff and have kina lapsed in = my old=20 age thinking it not necessary any more. and of course the = passing=20 of good eye-sight-- > Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler=20 yet? got a small jake the big "boss Gobbler is still = there=20 waiting for me--- hope to go next week--- all the info i = can=20 provide at this = time--- YMHOSANT =20 =3D+=3D "HAWK" Michael = Pierce 854=20 Glenfield=20 = Dr. &nbs= p;=20 (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) = Palm Harbor Florida =20 34684 = Phone: =20 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:hawknest4@juno.com">hawknest4@juno.com</A> =20 = web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce _________________= _______________________________________________ YOU'RE=20 PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet=20 Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE = software,=20 visit: <A=20 = href=3D"http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj">http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj<= /A>. ---------------------- hist_text=20 list info: <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01BF9DA0.C5BD29E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:31:31 -0500 From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: MtMan-List: What's all this hooter stuff anyway? At least at most rendezvous in Texas, the toilet facility is called "the hooter." I know nothing of the origin of this terminology, but I guess it is not from the rendezvous period. So I checked my handy Merriam-Webster dictionary to research the toilet terminology. In chronological order I found: 14th century -privy 14th century - lavatory (although meant for washing) 14th century - outhouse 15th century - urinal 1579 - chamber pot (the vessel) 1642 - latrine (a pit facility) 1681 - toilette 1695 - toilet 1755 - water closet 1780 - bathroom (although meant to contain a bath tub) 1806 - wash room - ------------------------------------- 1856 - john 1864 - slop pail 1870 - ladies room 1872 - sanitary ware (the fixture) 1884 - toilet paper 1899 - rest room 1913 - comfort station 1929 - men's room 1931 - donnicker or donniker 1932 - crapper 1940 - loo (British) 1942 - potty Date of origin (toilet meaning) not known: ablution (British) basement (New England) bowl can commode convenience facilities head hooter lavatory lounge public room I used the search feature of Dean Rudy's web site to look for any occurrence of the period words. The word 'privy' was used in it's other meaning, and toilet and toilette were used to mean 'dressing table.' Unlike the present author, the journalists and authors of the period were evidently too prudent to discuss such a disgusting topic. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:13:55 -0600 From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: natural dyes for buckskin I use fullers dirt, it is the stuff used in films to discolor or age cloth or leather, I also use leather dyes procured from a leather tannery, Very expensive but only use a little bit. What cracks leather is the drying out of the oils used in tanning. We have renewed leather by spraying it with a special oil we use in our tannery. It works great on chaps for example. you do not want to seal leather, as it has to breathe. Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:12:27 -0500 From: Jim Lindberg <jal@sgi.com> Subject: MtMan-List: water blasting tipi poles Would the person who did the water blasting of the tipi poles please email me privately, I have a buddy who is trying to corner the market in western Wisconsin B^) and is interested, but he lost the email I sent him. Thanks, Jim Lindberg jal@sgi.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #514 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.