ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n513

Internet Message Format | 2000-04-01 | 37KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #513
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest        Saturday, April 1 2000        Volume 01 : Number 513



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
-áááááá MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:07:08 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

pentelton and all
most original muzzle loading barrels were dead soft---they were the most
accurate according to the old-timers I have known---some were even cast
steel then they used the fireblue process to get out the hard spots in
the barrel along with finishing process----some will warp a bit but can
be easily straightened because they are dead soft---a hammer forged
barrel will have a lot of hoop stresses in the barrel and they were all
heat blued or anealed and finished in the same process---many of the old
remington muzzle loading and tyrone barrels came heat blued and they did
this to take the stress out of the barrel.   remington charged extra for
heat blued barrels---in the 1850-70 time span---

if you look in ned roberts "the muzzle loading caplock rifle and also in
dillen it will talk about heat blueing stressing and straightening the
barrels---they used a bow and a string going thru the bore of the barrel
and bent it back where it should be---have straightened a couple of
barrels myself---but you dont have to do it except if you have one that
is bored out of line and then also bent due to the milling stress.
normally the heat blue is a even rise in tempeture and a even degradation
so there is not that much warpage involved only the steel goes dead soft
and you get the beautiful slick blue or blue gray color---a lot of the
color is deturmined by how you prep the barrel before applying the heat
and if it is covered with sand or ashes or bone meal was used by some---

have seen several gunsmith records or journels and they dont call it heat
blueing always---some call it deadning or unstressing a barrel and some
call it naturalizing a barrel.  depends on the area of the country and
the riflesmith---most of the heat blueing was done with charcole and not
with cole in a furnice---the journel references from malcom fordney have
a  couple of entries one is naturalizing a barrel and another releving a
barrel and both indicate a straitning process included---I thank they are
both basically the same and is done by doing the heat blueing
process---and the blueing was just a second benifit.

bill large always thought that the softer the steel the better the barrel
(MOST ACCURATE) in his opinion---todays steel barrel blanks are stress
relieved at the factory before rifleing--that costs less for cutters to
rifle it---

Just in my humbel opinion if I would heat blue the barrel i would then
check it with a string and bow to make sure there is not major
warpage---there should not be because the temperature was not up to the
temper level and no quinching was done---the warping comes from the fast
cooling in my estimation---(kina like relieving and tempering in bone
meal---)(less warpage)

sorry i couldnt give you guys more info but thats about all i know on the
subject---but i do know how to straiten a barrel and it dont take much
bend to get it back on or  doing the regulating process on the crown---or
muzzel---

remember there was even temperture up and even tempiture in the cooling
process---thus in my mind you had minimum warpage and only anealing and
stress relieving of the barrel hoop stresses from boreing ---milling and
rifleing---it should be a better barrel for this
process---again---remington did it---tyrone did it---malcomb fordney did
it it must do something good---besides twist the barrel out of
shape---just my humbel opinion of course---kettenburg should be the man
to ask this question----i would be interested in his response??????

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:44:43 -0800 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> John,
>   You are exactly right.  By using that process you would be
> annealing the barrel, but keep in mind the old barrels were made of
> wrought iron, not steel.  There in lies another question.  How would
> wrought iron react to heating ?  I still can't figure how they kept
> the barrels from warping, when they got them that hot.  I think we
> need  " Hawk ", down in Florida, to weigh in on this subject.  Hawk,
> if you out there, fill us in on the details.
> Pendleton
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
>     To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>     Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:59 AM
>     Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
>
>
>     northwoods,
>     Question???  During this process of what appears to be some
> extreme heating
>     and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be
> (somewhat)
>     hard metal?
>     John Funk
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
>     To: <[e-mail]>
>     Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM
>     Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
>
>
>     > Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume
> 5 (Colonial
>     > Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8.
> It
>     describes
>     > the different processes they have experimented with in the
> past for
>     charcoal
>     > bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing
> on original
>     > guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic
> method, as told
>     to
>     > me by Eric Kettenburg at [e-mail] any questions you
> have he could
>     > answer i'm sure:
>     > "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there
> really isn't
>     much
>     > to it.  Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and
> out (breech
>     > threads too!)  You don't need to be obsessive about it though.
>  This
>     process
>     > will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front
> sights (ie
>     > smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward.  You need about
> three 20
>     > pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  Dig
> yourself a long
>     > firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the
> bottom.
>     Pile
>     > in the charcoal and light that fire baby!  YEE HAA!  When it
> seems to be
>     > burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and
> stick that
>     > barrel right down into the middle of it.  Pile on more
> charcoal.   Let
>     burn
>     > slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel.  Let cool
> slowly!!!  Wipe down
>     > w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it.  Most beautiful
> blued barrel
>     > you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/
> hints of some
>     > mottled blues like a color case.  This seems to be the most
> authentic
>     > appearance.   I do these a lot so I built up (instead of
> digging a pit) a
>     > square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere
> around
>     here!)
>     > and lined it well with sand.  This has the advantage of
> allowing you to
>     > control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to
> keep it at
>     the
>     > black-red heat.  I've heard other versions that heat the
> barrel in a metal
>     > trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel
> removed
>     > periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly
> more even blue
>     > but this seems overly complicated to me.  Lots of burned
> fingers, wasted
>     > time etc.   The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the
> originals
>     > I've been fortunate enough to see.  The Journal of Historical
> Armsmaking
>     > Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they
> (Williamsburg) do it
>     the
>     > complicated way.  Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the
> colr does
>     not
>     > seem to be as thick.  To each their own!  DO NOT do this to a
> barrel if
>     > you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie
> nameplates etc)
>     > because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different
> rates and
>     it
>     > will never look right again.  If you try to tighten it back
> up, you'll
>     ruin
>     > the blue w/ the file or hammer.  I wouldn't want to use this
> process on
>     > oct/round barrels either for the same reason:  The vastly
> different matal
>     > thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat
> are inviting
>     > warpage.  YIKES!  I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct.
> rifle or
>     > smooth-rifle barrels anyway.  Well, that's my two cents.  Fire
> up the
>     > charcoal and break out the hot doggies!  Yes, I do cook with
> charcoal
>     while
>     > it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire!
>     > Eric Kettenburg"
>     >
>     > northwoods
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > ----------------------
>     > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>     >
>
>
>     ----------------------
>     hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:46:14 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

- -----Original Message-----
From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: April 01, 2000 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?


>northwoods,
>Question???  During this process of what appears to be some extreme heating
>and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat)
>hard metal?


I'm sure Hawk answered your question for you. I know he can answer any that
I can think of asking him.  A few months ago I got to wondering how the
wrought iron barrels on some of the originals compared to modern
muzzleloader barrels, in terms of hardness. I was concerned with comparing
the wearability, and resistance to corrosion between both old and new
actually. so I called Colerain and Getz. Apparently they both use an alloy
called 12L14, which has a high amount of lead put into it. This is to
increase the machinibility. Even modern muzzleloader barrels are soft soft
soft.
Regarding the old barrels that where hand forged. Even if they weren't put
through the process of fire bluing, the last step after forging, and before
the initial reaming was done, was to anneal the barrel to make the boring
process possible. So all handforged barrels, as far as I can tell, were in
an annealed state, even if they weren't fire blued. Allthough since wrought
iron has no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the makers
were just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that was
done. Then again i've had people tell me that wrought can't be made harder,
If theres no carbon in it, it can't be made hard. Others tell me that it can
be made hard. I know of at least one very well respected smith who has had
good luck by "packing " wrought to make somewhat harder. Well regardless, I
guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk pointed
out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy, although I
have never heard of the results of someone testing this. I believe that
certain muzzleloader barrel makers today use a harder alloy than 12L14, and
they are very accurate, Green Mountain comes to mind. Mike Rock would know
the answer to that, he knows everything about barrels and then some.Larry P.
talked about references to trade guns having blued barrels, check out
Charles Hansons book The Northwest Gun, that will give you a good idea of
just how prevalent it was on them. To me it is a real beautiful finish.
Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet?

northwoods



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:12:13 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

- --=====================_149930343==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 -0600, northwoods wrote that Eric Kettenburg wrote:
>"...  You need about three 20
>pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  "


Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have real
charcoal for sale.

John...

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every
government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson




- --=====================_149930343==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<font size=3>At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 -0600, northwoods wrote that Eric
Kettenburg wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>"...  You need about three 20<br>
pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.
"</font></blockquote><br>
<br>
Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have real
charcoal for sale. <br>
<br>
John...<br>
<br>

<font size=3><b>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to
against every government on Earth... and what no just government should
refuse."  --Thomas Jefferson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></b></html>

- --=====================_149930343==_.ALT--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:29:05 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp

it's due to the one material component mechanically mixed into the iron
that gives wrought iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% SLAG,
i.e., iron silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound -

" In connection with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...
forging operations, it should be mentioned that there is very little
possibility of burning the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag
forms on a wrought iron surface and serves to protect the metal against
the danger of oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F to
2200.F corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], will
give the best results.  This is applicable to all types of forging
work."

c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and Edward Story (both were
metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), 1939,
pp. 65-67.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:37:43 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF9C1A.21B424C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John,
  You're probably right.  Charcoal Briquets would create hot spots that =
would give a uneven heat.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:09 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
    At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 -0600, northwoods wrote that Eric Kettenburg =
wrote:
   =20
        "...  You need about three 20
        pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  "
   =20
   =20
    Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have =
real charcoal for sale.=20
   =20
    John...
   =20
    "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every =
government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse."  =
- --Thomas Jefferson
   =20
   =20
   =20


- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF9C1A.21B424C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  You're =
probably=20
right.  Charcoal Briquets would create hot spots that would give a =
uneven=20
heat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Kramer <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:09 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: GUN=20
    BLUEING ?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT size=3D3>At 07:18 PM 3/31/00 =
- -0600,=20
    northwoods wrote that Eric Kettenburg wrote:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>"...  You need about three=20
        20<BR>pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets.  =

        "</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Restaurant suppliers who =
service the steak=20
    house trade should have real charcoal for sale. =
<BR><BR>John...<BR><BR><FONT=20
    size=3D3><B>"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled =
to against=20
    every government on Earth... and what no just government should=20
    refuse."  --Thomas=20
Jefferson<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></B></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF9C1A.21B424C0--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:37:58 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF9C1A.2AA4F640
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Northwoods,
  I can't seem to find my copy of The Northwest Gun by Charlie Hanson.  =
I do have a copy of the letter from the AFC to J.J. Henry, where they =
were ordering their guns for the 1829 rendezvous.  They specified all =
barrels were to be blued and stocks were to be varnished.
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 4:42 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
   =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: April 01, 2000 8:59 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?
   =20
   =20
    >northwoods,
    >Question???  During this process of what appears to be some extreme =
heating
    >and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be =
(somewhat)
    >hard metal?
   =20
   =20
    I'm sure Hawk answered your question for you. I know he can answer =
any that
    I can think of asking him.  A few months ago I got to wondering how =
the
    wrought iron barrels on some of the originals compared to modern
    muzzleloader barrels, in terms of hardness. I was concerned with =
comparing
    the wearability, and resistance to corrosion between both old and =
new
    actually. so I called Colerain and Getz. Apparently they both use an =
alloy
    called 12L14, which has a high amount of lead put into it. This is =
to
    increase the machinibility. Even modern muzzleloader barrels are =
soft soft
    soft.
    Regarding the old barrels that where hand forged. Even if they =
weren't put
    through the process of fire bluing, the last step after forging, and =
before
    the initial reaming was done, was to anneal the barrel to make the =
boring
    process possible. So all handforged barrels, as far as I can tell, =
were in
    an annealed state, even if they weren't fire blued. Allthough since =
wrought
    iron has no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the =
makers
    were just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that =
was
    done. Then again i've had people tell me that wrought can't be made =
harder,
    If theres no carbon in it, it can't be made hard. Others tell me =
that it can
    be made hard. I know of at least one very well respected smith who =
has had
    good luck by "packing " wrought to make somewhat harder. Well =
regardless, I
    guess they wanted barrels soft.This probably has to do with, as Hawk =
pointed
    out from Bill Larges experience and other old timers, accuracy, =
although I
    have never heard of the results of someone testing this. I believe =
that
    certain muzzleloader barrel makers today use a harder alloy than =
12L14, and
    they are very accurate, Green Mountain comes to mind. Mike Rock =
would know
    the answer to that, he knows everything about barrels and then =
some.Larry P.
    talked about references to trade guns having blued barrels, check =
out
    Charles Hansons book The Northwest Gun, that will give you a good =
idea of
    just how prevalent it was on them. To me it is a real beautiful =
finish.
    Hawk, did you get that 20# gobbler yet?
   =20
    northwoods
   =20
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF9C1A.2AA4F640
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Northwoods,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  I can't =
seem to find=20
my copy of The Northwest Gun by Charlie Hanson.  I do have a copy =
of the=20
letter from the AFC to J.J. Henry, where they were ordering their guns =
for the=20
1829 rendezvous.  They specified all barrels were to be blued and =
stocks=20
were to be varnished.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>northwoods <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 4:42 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: GUN=20
    BLUEING ?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR>-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From: John=20
    C. Funk, Jr. <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To=
: <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Date:=20
    April 01, 2000 8:59 AM<BR>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING=20
    ?<BR><BR><BR>>northwoods,<BR>>Question???  During this =
process of=20
    what appears to be some extreme heating<BR>>and slow cooling, =
aren't you=20
    annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat)<BR>>hard=20
    metal?<BR><BR><BR>I'm sure Hawk answered your question for you. I =
know he=20
    can answer any that<BR>I can think of asking him.  A few months =
ago I=20
    got to wondering how the<BR>wrought iron barrels on some of the =
originals=20
    compared to modern<BR>muzzleloader barrels, in terms of hardness. I =
was=20
    concerned with comparing<BR>the wearability, and resistance to =
corrosion=20
    between both old and new<BR>actually. so I called Colerain and Getz. =

    Apparently they both use an alloy<BR>called 12L14, which has a high =
amount=20
    of lead put into it. This is to<BR>increase the machinibility. Even =
modern=20
    muzzleloader barrels are soft soft<BR>soft.<BR>Regarding the old =
barrels=20
    that where hand forged. Even if they weren't put<BR>through the =
process of=20
    fire bluing, the last step after forging, and before<BR>the initial =
reaming=20
    was done, was to anneal the barrel to make the boring<BR>process =
possible.=20
    So all handforged barrels, as far as I can tell, were in<BR>an =
annealed=20
    state, even if they weren't fire blued. Allthough since =
wrought<BR>iron has=20
    no carbon in it, it really couldn't be to hard, unless the =
makers<BR>were=20
    just removing the work hardening from the repeated forging that =
was<BR>done.=20
    Then again i've had people tell me that wrought can't be made =
harder,<BR>If=20
    theres no carbon in it, it can't be made hard. Others tell me that =
it=20
    can<BR>be made hard. I know of at least one very well respected =
smith who=20
    has had<BR>good luck by "packing " wrought to make =
somewhat=20
    harder. Well regardless, I<BR>guess they wanted barrels soft.This =
probably=20
    has to do with, as Hawk pointed<BR>out from Bill Larges experience =
and other=20
    old timers, accuracy, although I<BR>have never heard of the results =
of=20
    someone testing this. I believe that<BR>certain muzzleloader barrel =
makers=20
    today use a harder alloy than 12L14, and<BR>they are very accurate, =
Green=20
    Mountain comes to mind. Mike Rock would know<BR>the answer to that, =
he knows=20
    everything about barrels and then some.Larry P.<BR>talked about =
references=20
    to trade guns having blued barrels, check out<BR>Charles Hansons =
book The=20
    Northwest Gun, that will give you a good idea of<BR>just how =
prevalent it=20
    was on them. To me it is a real beautiful finish.<BR>Hawk, did you =
get that=20
    20# gobbler=20
    =
yet?<BR><BR>northwoods<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=
=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF9C1A.2AA4F640--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:40:44 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BF9C1A.8D505C80
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jon,
  Good info !  I do some smithin, but have never worked with wrought =
iron.
Thanks,
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: JON MARINETTI <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:29 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp
   =20
   =20
    it's due to the one material component mechanically mixed into the =
iron
    that gives wrought iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% =
SLAG,
    i.e., iron silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound -=20
   =20
    " In connection with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...
    forging operations, it should be mentioned that there is very little
    possibility of burning the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag
    forms on a wrought iron surface and serves to protect the metal =
against
    the danger of oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F =
to
    2200.F corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], =
will
    give the best results.  This is applicable to all types of forging
    work."
   =20
    c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and Edward Story (both were
    metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), =
1939,
    pp. 65-67.
   =20
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    from Michigan
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BF9C1A.8D505C80
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  Good =
info !  I=20
do some smithin, but have never worked with wrought iron.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>JON MARINETTI <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><B=
R><B>To:=20
    </B><A =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:29 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
why=20
    wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>it's due to =
the one=20
    material component mechanically mixed into the iron<BR>that gives =
wrought=20
    iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% SLAG,<BR>i.e., iron=20
    silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound - <BR><BR>" In =
connection=20
    with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...<BR>forging =
operations,=20
    it should be mentioned that there is very little<BR>possibility of =
burning=20
    the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag<BR>forms on a wrought =
iron=20
    surface and serves to protect the metal against<BR>the danger of=20
    oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F =
to<BR>2200.F=20
    corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], =
will<BR>give the=20
    best results.  This is applicable to all types of=20
    forging<BR>work."<BR><BR>c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and =
Edward=20
    Story (both were<BR>metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, =

    Pennsylvania), 1939,<BR>pp. =
65-67.<BR><BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>from=20
    =
Michigan<BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR=
>hist_text=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BF9C1A.8D505C80--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:33:27 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp

Jon, the paragraph you mentioned points out that the slag makes it difficult
to burn wrought iron when it is being brought to, or held at forging
temperatures. That makes it nice to work with, however other than ease in
forging and welding, the slag in the wrought is not a good thing, to the
contrary its bad. The more you work a piece of wrought the more slag is
removed from it, and the better it gets. To make steel from this wrought
they would take pieces of it about 3"wide1"thick10'long and put them through
a process similar to case hardening, when they were done it would have a
blistered appearance that was called blister steel. If they gave that
additional hammering or rolling it was called bar steel. If they took that
and cut it into pieces, stacked it and rewelded it, it was called single
shear steel. Do that process again and it was double shear. They could do
this several times, however this technique had its limits, and only after
the crucible process came into existence did quality of steel improve
greatly. The higher qualities of iron and steel were more homogenous, less
slag and more uniform throughout. I have read many times that the best iron
for barrels was Swedish. I don't know what it was about swedish iron that
made it so sought after, but it must have been superior in certain respects.
I should add a disclaimer that I don't know that much about the subject,
just trying to learn...

northwoods
- -----Original Message-----
From: JON MARINETTI <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: April 01, 2000 8:29 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: why wrought iron barrel won't burn-warp


it's due to the one material component mechanically mixed into the iron
that gives wrought iron it's unique and excellent properties: 2-4% SLAG,
i.e., iron silicate, i.e., iron-silicon-oxygen compound -

" In connection with the heating of wrought iron, preparatory to ...
forging operations, it should be mentioned that there is very little
possibility of burning the metal. ... at higher temperatures a slag
forms on a wrought iron surface and serves to protect the metal against
the danger of oxidation.  A temperature in the range between 2100.F to
2200.F corresponding to a bright yellow color [of the workpiece], will
give the best results.  This is applicable to all types of forging
work."

c.f. Wrought Iron, by James Aston and Edward Story (both were
metallurgists at A.M. Byers Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), 1939,
pp. 65-67.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:41:40 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: April 01, 2000 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ?

>Restaurant suppliers who service the steak house trade should have real
>charcoal for sale.
>John...


Heres a few more sources if somebody is interested:

Holland Sales
508 Cumberland Street
Memphis, TN 38112-2618
901-324-1418
Lump charcoal available by the bag or
by the truckload.

Hometown Inc.
1518 E. North Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53202
414-276-9311 800-242-9238 414-276-6061 fax
Source of good quality charcoal that
burns very hot.

Humphreys Charcoal Corp.
Brookville, PA 15825
Excellent quality hardwood charcoal in 20 & 40 lb bags.

Lazzare Brothers or Lazzare Fuel Company
P.O. Box 34051
San Francisco, CA 94134-0051
415-467-2970
Source of blacksmithing coal.
They also have coke and charcoal.

Paul's Fireplace Wood
RR 6 Box 211
Little Falls, MN 56345-9137
800-347-3966
Lump charcoal in 40 pound bags.
Best time to call is between 8 & 10 am cst.

Mark Solomon
1020 S. Main
Moscow, ID 83843
208-882-6549
Supplier of Dragon Fire Charcoal,
a very good charcoal for forging.

northwoods


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #513
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.