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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #512 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, April 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 512 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kinninik -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kinninik -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kinninik -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kinninik -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:26:03 -0500 From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik There is a plant called kinnikinick. It grows in many places, but I've seen it in the mountains above Colorado Springs. I've picked it, dried it, smoked it, and had it verified that it is kk for sure. You can blend it with other herbs, which was commonly done. That's probably why there is confusion over whether it's a plant or a blend. It's both. It's available at many pow-wows. Some Indians like to make their own blends, others smoke it straight. Some blends are smooth, some bitter, but all pretty natural and tobacco-free. Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:25:22 EST From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik My " Peterson Guide to Edible Wild Plants" list kinnikinik as a common name for Bearberry. Berries may be cooked and eaten, and the leaves used for tobacco substitute. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:58:29 -0700 From: Bobbie <bobbiel@dim.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik Thanks for the info. "Bearberry" is still a common name. Can you please tell me what it gives for the Latin name? I've been looking more into this today (too much time on my hands, I guess), and finding some peculiar references. Bobbie >My " Peterson Guide to Edible Wild Plants" list kinnikinik as a common name >for Bearberry. Berries may be cooked and eaten, and the leaves used for >tobacco substitute. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:15:12 EST From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kinninik The name nobody can spell, pronounce or use is as follows: Arctostaphylos uva-ursi Sounds like some kind of disease to me. I prefer bearberry - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:33:44 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate - -----Original Message----- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com <Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: March 31, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate >BTW I read about war bridles just this past week. Did you know that when the >war-bridle was passed between the upper lip and the gums and tightened aroudn >the poll it causes endorphines to release into the animals brain and calms him >down? That's why they were used on raids, bridle up wait til the internal drugs >kicks in and sneak outta enemy camp. Slick. Gotta give it to them old fellers, >they knew where all the hole cards were. Thats an old trick that is used very often today. Take an old hammer handle and drill a hole through one end. Pass one end of about a 12" piece of binder twine through the hole and tie it to the other end. its called a twitch. Now when you have a horse you have to control just slip the twine over the upper lip and twist the handle round and round until its tight. Ussually this is enough to make a horse stand so you can stitch it up, or do some other kind of work on it. This may sound inhumane to some, but when you spend a lot of time around a lot of different horses you find that they can be very accident prone and awful hard to control sometimes. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:56:09 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate John Funk regarding the antiquity of the mecate, I just looked in a book that I had handy, "Cowboy Bits and Spurs" by Joyce Overton, and it says that the moors had mecates, and they passed there use of it on to the Spanish like Rick had pointed out. Says they liked to use the hackamore/bosel/mecate on green horses so as to not harden the mouth to a bit rite off. The English liked to use a bit from the start. It also says that when the Spanish came to America they brought this tradition, and it was responsible for creating the reining horse as we know it. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:18:55 -0700 From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate Northwoods, Yeah, I know about those twitches too. It's awful treatment. I've never resorted to one. I think it's only for use by very experienced hands and as a very last resort. Historical accounts show that the old moutaineers would follow the old adage, "Cure or Kill" when it came to fractious animals. They didn't take the time to mollycoddle animals, or humans either for that matter. I gotta say I passed on the war-bridle info as info only. . . and not as any prescription for use by anyone and certainly not condoned by me or anyone I personally know. So, folks, don't use twitches or warbridles on your horse until you try em on yourself first. Nuff said. Rick - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:44:12 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate - -----Original Message----- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com <Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: March 31, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate >Yeah, I know about those twitches too. It's awful treatment. I've never >resorted to one So, folks, don't use twitches or warbridles on your horse >until you try em on yourself first. Nuff said. >Rick Well Rick I just new somebody would think that it was cruel and inhumane treatment. That isn't the case. Since my wife and I have a veterinary clinic which is for the most part, but not limtited to large animal work, which for the most part, but is not limited to equine (We work on everything but snakes) I speak from the perspective of someone who is around horses quite a bit. And often its under circumstances that are less than perfect, i.e. horses that need to be restrained to be treated. Just ask a qualified veterinarian if twitches are humane or not. They will more than likely try and explain that, just as you previously pointed out, using a twitch on a horses lip (which is an accupressure point) releases endorphines. Endorphines are a natural from of morphine. It does not harm a horse in any way to use a twitch. It is a very accepted method of restraining a horse. Everyone who has horses and works with them often should have a twitch around. When a horse needs to be restrained and can't be with a twitch do you know what the alternative is? No it's not the "cure or kill" adage you suggested Rick, it's the needle. And using drugs to restrain a horse is risky. Trust me on that, and if you don't I can give you more info that will change your mind.... northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:29:02 -0700 From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate Northwoods You use 'em so I bow to your knowledge. You have the experienced hands I was talking about. I can picture some poor feller fighting to load his cayuse into a trailer and thinking, "I read about twitches on that e-mail list. Let's see, if I tighten this twitch a little more, that oughta get the @#$$#@#$ in there." ...and I kind of didn't want anyone to cut off their animals lip. Sorry I brought it up in the first place...other than the historical content being interesting. Plenty of horse websites where you can learn about such other subjects eh? Rick - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:00:35 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? Does anyone know, or can describe the process of CHARCOAL BLUEING ? I have seen many references to TRADE GUNS having blued barrels, and I am told they used a process known as charcoal blueing, which is totally different than what is used today. As yet, I have not been able to find anyone who can definitely describe what the process of charcoal blueing is. Thanks, Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:02:17 -0800 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate northwoods....... SUPER.....Great reference and just what I needed. My thanks to you and Rick for your feedback. John Funk - ----- Original Message ----- From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > John Funk regarding the antiquity of the mecate, I just looked in a book > that I had handy, "Cowboy Bits and Spurs" by Joyce Overton, and it says > that the moors had mecates, and they passed there use of it on to the > Spanish like Rick had pointed out. Says they liked to use the > hackamore/bosel/mecate on green horses so as to not harden the mouth to a > bit rite off. The English liked to use a bit from the start. It also says > that when the Spanish came to America they brought this tradition, and it > was responsible for creating the reining horse as we know it. > > northwoods > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:12:12 -0800 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate Rick, Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches as described by 'northwoods'. I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of the instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses. I was told that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment. I will leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I. John Funk - ----- Original Message ----- From: <Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 2:18 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > > > Northwoods, > > Yeah, I know about those twitches too. It's awful treatment. I've never > resorted to one. I think it's only for use by very experienced hands and as a > very last resort. Historical accounts show that the old moutaineers would > follow the old adage, "Cure or Kill" when it came to fractious animals. They > didn't take the time to mollycoddle animals, or humans either for that matter. > > I gotta say I passed on the war-bridle info as info only. . . and not as any > prescription for use by anyone and certainly not condoned by me or anyone I > personally know. So, folks, don't use twitches or warbridles on your horse > until you try em on yourself first. Nuff said. > Rick > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:18:50 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume 5 (Colonial Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8. It describes the different processes they have experimented with in the past for charcoal bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on original guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, as told to me by Eric Kettenburg at theland1@epix.net any questions you have he could answer i'm sure: "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there really isn't much to it. Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out (breech threads too!) You don't need to be obsessive about it though. This process will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front sights (ie smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward. You need about three 20 pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets. Dig yourself a long firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the bottom. Pile in the charcoal and light that fire baby! YEE HAA! When it seems to be burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and stick that barrel right down into the middle of it. Pile on more charcoal. Let burn slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel. Let cool slowly!!! Wipe down w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it. Most beautiful blued barrel you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/ hints of some mottled blues like a color case. This seems to be the most authentic appearance. I do these a lot so I built up (instead of digging a pit) a square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere around here!) and lined it well with sand. This has the advantage of allowing you to control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep it at the black-red heat. I've heard other versions that heat the barrel in a metal trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel removed periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly more even blue but this seems overly complicated to me. Lots of burned fingers, wasted time etc. The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the originals I've been fortunate enough to see. The Journal of Historical Armsmaking Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they (Williamsburg) do it the complicated way. Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr does not seem to be as thick. To each their own! DO NOT do this to a barrel if you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates etc) because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different rates and it will never look right again. If you try to tighten it back up, you'll ruin the blue w/ the file or hammer. I wouldn't want to use this process on oct/round barrels either for the same reason: The vastly different matal thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are inviting warpage. YIKES! I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct. rifle or smooth-rifle barrels anyway. Well, that's my two cents. Fire up the charcoal and break out the hot doggies! Yes, I do cook with charcoal while it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire! Eric Kettenburg" northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:43:12 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate - -----Original Message----- From: John C. Funk, Jr. <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate >Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches as >described by 'northwoods'. I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of the >instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses. I was told >that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when >the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment. I will >leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I. Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip in your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used, and I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where a trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was, sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable. Hey Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip i'll be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country... northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:52:07 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate There are several spots on a horse that will do the same chemical release. Grabbing the ear (not a preferred thing to do if you are rough about it - it will tend to make the critter head shy), rubbing just above the eye, or putting pressure in the center of the upper gum, which can be done from outside or inside the lip, all have the same effect. The twitch does release endorphins, but it also inflicts some pain which also tends to get the animal's attention. Yes, to some it is cruel, especially if held for a prolonged time so that the horse begins to moan a bit, but it is effective, and beats hell out of the shoer or other handler getting hurt. The animal is not left with any permanent injuries and seems none the worse for it. I prefer to use a soft cotton rope of about 1/2 inch, tied off to one side of the halter, run under the upper lip and tight against the gum, over to the other side of the halter where I use a sliding knot so the rope can be tightened or loosened as needed. (it doesn't take much pressure). It has the effect of putting pressure on the gum to release the chemical, plus it gives the horse something to think about besides what is going on under or around it. I used this on rank or obstreperous horses for years when I was shoeing and it worked very well. I later watched an old experienced farrier, who had a helper holding a horse with a chain twitch, get his upper leg broken in 5 places. It about ended his career. Bill - -----Original Message----- From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > >-----Original Message----- >From: John C. Funk, Jr. <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > > >>Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches >as >>described by 'northwoods'. I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of the >>instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses. I was told >>that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when >>the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment. I will >>leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I. > >Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really >guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to >restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained >horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip in >your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry >to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few >millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used, and >I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where a >trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was, >sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would >lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and >bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely >would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same >ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they >can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable. Hey >Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the >Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip i'll >be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the >province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country... > >northwoods > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:15:28 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate - -----Original Message----- From: Bill Cunningham <bcunningham@gwe.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: March 31, 2000 8:38 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > Yes, to some it is cruel, especially if held for a >prolonged time so that the horse begins to moan a bit, but it is effective, >and beats hell out of the shoer or other handler getting hurt. The animal is >not left with any permanent injuries and seems none the worse for it. Good advice Bill, since I sound like I am an advocate of twitching horses, I should say that it can be cruel and inhumane if used improperely. A chain twitch like Bill mentioned I have never used, although some folks do. While a twitch on the lip does produce some pain which results in taking the horses mind off of other matters, that isn't the primary reason for using one, in other words, you just need gentle pressure to have a positive effect. In my experience a regular rope twitch works for me for most situations, probably the most common situation I use it is when tubing a horse for collic, most horses even if there good ones generally don't care for that, but a twitch is all thats needed to get it done in a minute or two....for situations when a twitch may not restrain a horse enough, you really have to skip it and just go to the next level, no use in getting maimed or killed that isn't any fun. northwoods I >prefer to use a soft cotton rope of about 1/2 inch, tied off to one side of >the halter, run under the upper lip and tight against the gum, over to the >other side of the halter where I use a sliding knot so the rope can be >tightened or loosened as needed. (it doesn't take much pressure). It has the >effect of putting pressure on the gum to release the chemical, plus it gives >the horse something to think about besides what is going on under or around >it. I used this on rank or obstreperous horses for years when I was shoeing >and it worked very well. I later watched an old experienced farrier, who had >a helper holding a horse with a chain twitch, get his upper leg broken in 5 >places. It about ended his career. >Bill >-----Original Message----- >From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:40 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > > >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John C. Funk, Jr. <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >>Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate >> >> >>>Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches >>as >>>described by 'northwoods'. I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of >the >>>instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses. I was told >>>that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when >>>the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment. I >will >>>leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I. >> >>Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really >>guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to >>restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained >>horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip in >>your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry >>to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few >>millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used, and >>I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where >a >>trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was, >>sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would >>lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and >>bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely >>would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same >>ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they >>can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable. Hey >>Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the >>Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip i'll >>be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the >>province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country... >> >>northwoods >> >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 06:59:14 -0800 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? northwoods, Question??? During this process of what appears to be some extreme heating and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat) hard metal? John Funk - ----- Original Message ----- From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? > Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume 5 (Colonial > Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8. It describes > the different processes they have experimented with in the past for charcoal > bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on original > guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, as told to > me by Eric Kettenburg at theland1@epix.net any questions you have he could > answer i'm sure: > "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there really isn't much > to it. Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out (breech > threads too!) You don't need to be obsessive about it though. This process > will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front sights (ie > smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward. You need about three 20 > pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets. Dig yourself a long > firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the bottom. Pile > in the charcoal and light that fire baby! YEE HAA! When it seems to be > burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and stick that > barrel right down into the middle of it. Pile on more charcoal. Let burn > slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel. Let cool slowly!!! Wipe down > w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it. Most beautiful blued barrel > you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/ hints of some > mottled blues like a color case. This seems to be the most authentic > appearance. I do these a lot so I built up (instead of digging a pit) a > square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere around here!) > and lined it well with sand. This has the advantage of allowing you to > control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep it at the > black-red heat. I've heard other versions that heat the barrel in a metal > trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel removed > periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly more even blue > but this seems overly complicated to me. Lots of burned fingers, wasted > time etc. The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the originals > I've been fortunate enough to see. The Journal of Historical Armsmaking > Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they (Williamsburg) do it the > complicated way. Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr does not > seem to be as thick. To each their own! DO NOT do this to a barrel if > you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates etc) > because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different rates and it > will never look right again. If you try to tighten it back up, you'll ruin > the blue w/ the file or hammer. I wouldn't want to use this process on > oct/round barrels either for the same reason: The vastly different matal > thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are inviting > warpage. YIKES! I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct. rifle or > smooth-rifle barrels anyway. Well, that's my two cents. Fire up the > charcoal and break out the hot doggies! Yes, I do cook with charcoal while > it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire! > Eric Kettenburg" > > northwoods > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:11:28 -0800 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate Thanks for the correction.... John F - ----- Original Message ----- From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > > -----Original Message----- > From: John C. Funk, Jr. <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: March 31, 2000 7:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saddles/mecate > > > >Actually, I've seen several vet's in our area of the country use twitches > as > >described by 'northwoods'. I, too, inquired about the humane aspect of the > >instrument which is readily sold in veterinary supply houses. I was told > >that when used properly it releases dopamine (a form of pain killer) when > >the horse is undergoing some form of potentially painful treatment. I will > >leave its use in the hands of someone more skillful than I. > > Not dopamine John, endorphines, which is a morphine like chemical. Really > guys, twitches are not inhumane or difficult to use. If you ever need to > restrain a horse to do teeth work, or check out a foot on an untrained > horse, or whatever, it can be done simply by just grabbing the upper lip in > your hand and twisting to apply pressure. Twitches are not inhumane, sorry > to be redundant, but this method predates the mountain man era by a few > millenia although I am sure that they were aware of how they were used, and > I bet they didn't hesitate to use them when needed. I have also read where a > trapper would have to go through the same ritual every morning, which was, > sneak up real careful like on his hobbled mule, and grab it. Then he would > lead it to camp and grab its pack, and then very deftly grab it's ear and > bite down while throwing the pannier on its back. The darn mule absolutely > would not stand to be loaded if this wasn't done. Every morning the same > ritual would have to be repeated. Horses and mules are funny in that they > can make your life one heck of a lot easier, or make it very miserable. Hey > Rick if your interested in the history of horsemanship read about the > Mongols. Lately I have been doing just that, in preparation for a trip i'll > be taking to outer Mongolia in August on a 2 week horse trek into the > province of Arhangay. Fun stuff, talk about unspoiled virgin country... > > northwoods > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:44:43 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF9BBE.E8A237E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, You are exactly right. By using that process you would be annealing = the barrel, but keep in mind the old barrels were made of wrought iron, = not steel. There in lies another question. How would wrought iron = react to heating ? I still can't figure how they kept the barrels from = warping, when they got them that hot. I think we need " Hawk ", down = in Florida, to weigh in on this subject. Hawk, if you out there, fill = us in on the details. Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: John C. Funk, Jr. <J2Hearts@norcalis.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:59 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? =20 =20 northwoods, Question??? During this process of what appears to be some extreme = heating and slow cooling, aren't you annealing what would otherwise be = (somewhat) hard metal? John Funk =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN BLUEING ? =20 =20 > Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical Armsmaking Volume 5 = (Colonial > Williamsburg), which is available from the NMLRA for about $8. It describes > the different processes they have experimented with in the past = for charcoal > bluing and also talks about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on = original > guns. If you don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, = as told to > me by Eric Kettenburg at theland1@epix.net any questions you have = he could > answer i'm sure: > "Regarding the charcoal bluing process I mentioned, there really = isn't much > to it. Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out = (breech > threads too!) You don't need to be obsessive about it though. = This process > will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on draw loops or front = sights (ie > smoothbores) unless you attach them afterward. You need about = three 20 > pound bags or real hardwood charcoal - NOT briquets. Dig yourself = a long > firepit @ 7 ft long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the = bottom. Pile > in the charcoal and light that fire baby! YEE HAA! When it seems = to be > burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of tongs and = stick that > barrel right down into the middle of it. Pile on more charcoal. = Let burn > slowly for 2-3 hours and remove the barrel. Let cool slowly!!! = Wipe down > w/ a wool cloth and oil the heck out of it. Most beautiful blued = barrel > you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent blue-gray w/ hints of = some > mottled blues like a color case. This seems to be the most = authentic > appearance. I do these a lot so I built up (instead of digging a = pit) a > square trough out of fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere = around here!) > and lined it well with sand. This has the advantage of allowing = you to > control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep = it at the > black-red heat. I've heard other versions that heat the barrel in = a metal > trough from below, trough full of powdered charcoal and barrel = removed > periodically and rubbed down with lime to ensure a slightly more = even blue > but this seems overly complicated to me. Lots of burned fingers, = wasted > time etc. The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the = originals > I've been fortunate enough to see. The Journal of Historical = Armsmaking > Vol. 5 has a small article on this process but they (Williamsburg) = do it the > complicated way. Their barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr = does not > seem to be as thick. To each their own! DO NOT do this to a = barrel if > you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates = etc) > because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at different = rates and it > will never look right again. If you try to tighten it back up, = you'll ruin > the blue w/ the file or hammer. I wouldn't want to use this = process on > oct/round barrels either for the same reason: The vastly = different matal > thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are = inviting > warpage. YIKES! I've only seen remnants of this blue on oct. = rifle or > smooth-rifle barrels anyway. Well, that's my two cents. Fire up = the > charcoal and break out the hot doggies! Yes, I do cook with = charcoal while > it's burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire! > Eric Kettenburg" > > northwoods > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF9BBE.E8A237E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>John,</DIV> <DIV> You are = exactly=20 right. By using that process you would be annealing the barrel, = but keep=20 in mind the old barrels were made of wrought iron, not steel. = There in=20 lies another question. How would wrought iron react to heating = ? I=20 still can't figure how they kept the barrels from warping, when they got = them=20 that hot. I think we need " Hawk ", down in = Florida, to=20 weigh in on this subject. Hawk, if you out there, fill us in on = the=20 details.</DIV> <DIV>Pendleton</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 John C. Funk, Jr. <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:J2Hearts@norcalis.net">J2Hearts@norcalis.net</A>> <B= >To:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Saturday, April 01, 2000 6:59 AM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: GUN=20 BLUEING ? </DIV>northwoods, Question??? = During this=20 process of what appears to be some extreme heating and slow = cooling,=20 aren't you annealing what would otherwise be (somewhat) hard=20 metal? John Funk ----- Original Message ----- From: = northwoods <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:northwoods@ez-net.com">northwoods@ez-net.com</A>> To= :=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Sent:=20 Friday, March 31, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GUN = BLUEING=20 ? > Larry suggest you get Journal of Historical = Armsmaking=20 Volume 5 (Colonial > Williamsburg), which is available from = the NMLRA=20 for about $8. It describes > the different processes they = have=20 experimented with in the past for charcoal > bluing and = also talks=20 about the prevalence of charcoal bluing on original > guns. If = you=20 don't want to buy the book here is the basic method, as = told to >=20 me by Eric Kettenburg at <A=20 href=3D"mailto:theland1@epix.net">theland1@epix.net</A> any = questions you have=20 he could > answer i'm sure: > "Regarding the = charcoal=20 bluing process I mentioned, there really isn't much > to = it. =20 Polish the barrel as normal and degrease inside and out = (breech >=20 threads too!) You don't need to be obsessive about it = though. =20 This process > will NOT work with barrels w/ soldered-on = draw loops=20 or front sights (ie > smoothbores) unless you attach them=20 afterward. You need about three 20 > pound bags or real = hardwood=20 charcoal - NOT briquets. Dig yourself a long > firepit @ = 7 ft=20 long and 2 ft wide and dump 2-4" of sand in the = bottom. Pile >=20 in the charcoal and light that fire baby! YEE HAA! When = it seems=20 to be > burning all throughout, take two loooooong pairs of = tongs and=20 stick that > barrel right down into the middle of it. = Pile on=20 more charcoal. Let burn > slowly for 2-3 hours = and=20 remove the barrel. Let cool slowly!!! Wipe down > = w/ a=20 wool cloth and oil the heck out of it. Most beautiful blued=20 barrel > you've ever seen, usually a deep translucent = blue-gray w/=20 hints of some > mottled blues like a color case. This = seems to=20 be the most authentic > appearance. I do these a = lot so I=20 built up (instead of digging a pit) a > square trough out of=20 fieldstone (the old walls are everywhere around here!) > = and lined=20 it well with sand. This has the advantage of allowing you = to >=20 control the air intake to the fire w. sheet metal over top to keep = it=20 at the > black-red heat. I've heard other versions = that heat=20 the barrel in a metal > trough from below, trough full of = powdered=20 charcoal and barrel removed > periodically and rubbed down = with lime=20 to ensure a slightly more even blue > but this seems overly=20 complicated to me. Lots of burned fingers, wasted > time = etc. The way I've been doing it seems to well-match the=20 originals > I've been fortunate enough to see. The = Journal of=20 Historical Armsmaking > Vol. 5 has a small article on this = process but=20 they (Williamsburg) do it the > complicated way. = Their=20 barrels seem grayer than mine and the colr does not > seem = to be as=20 thick. To each their own! DO NOT do this to a barrel = if >=20 you've inlet brass or silver inlays into the barrel (ie nameplates=20 etc) > because the two diff. metals will expand/contract at = different=20 rates and it > will never look right again. If you = try to=20 tighten it back up, you'll ruin > the blue w/ the file or=20 hammer. I wouldn't want to use this process on > = oct/round=20 barrels either for the same reason: The vastly different = matal >=20 thicknesses throughout the barrel combined w/ the high heat are=20 inviting > warpage. YIKES! I've only seen remnants = of this=20 blue on oct. rifle or > smooth-rifle barrels anyway. = Well,=20 that's my two cents. Fire up the > charcoal and break = out the=20 hot doggies! Yes, I do cook with charcoal while > = it's=20 burning and stop laughing...no need to waste a good fire! > = Eric=20 Kettenburg" > >=20 = northwoods > > > > > > > >= ; > > >=20 ---------------------- > hist_text list info: <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A> > ------------= - ---------- hist_text=20 list info: <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF9BBE.E8A237E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #512 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.