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hist_text-digest        Tuesday, March 21 2000        Volume 01 : Number 504



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: David Jackson
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá MtMan-List: DOGS ?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Beaver hats
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Linen
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linen

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:21:36 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular

I believe that's Richard C. Poulsen. In it he postulates that the mountain
men did not talk as Ruxton has them speaking. It is a scholarly work for
which he prepared by studying stylistic as well as linguistic evidence of
speech patterns in the historical oral narrative of the fur trade journals
and diaries.  He compared the results with Ruxton's mountain men and known
characteristics of oral narrative style to determine Ruxton's faithfulness
to accuracy. He pointed out that no one should assume any single mountain
man possessed all of the speech patterns, vocabulary, metaphors and so on
used by Ruxton.
The article I mentioned, which among others uses Poulsen's book as
reference, is in the November 1999 issue of the Tomahawk and Long Rifle and
in The Trapline Volume 2 issue 3 Summer 1999.
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular


>Here is a book some of us have talked about in the past. It may shed some
>lite on the subject of mountain man speech. I have never read it, but to
>those who care to:
>
>The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's Historical roots, It's linguistic Nature,
>and it's
>Literary Uses   (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 English and Literature , Vol. 22)
>By: Richard C Paulsen    1985
>
>Available from Amazon
>
>northwoods
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:23:25 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings

Steve,

Don't you mean "Brain Tan Trousers or Knee Britches" under leggings? I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:38:18 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: March 20, 2000 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?


>>any professional or semi-professional trappers that I have met have always
>brought a good dog along when checking their trap lines.  A dog is a
valuable
>asset for recovering traps that have been dragged off into the bushes
>somewhere.

I have done a "little" trapping in my time. Both wet and dryland. I could
say the exact opposite of your statement is true. The worst thing you could
do is take a dog along for a lot of reasons which are obvious if you have a
knowledge of trapping succesfully.

>As for assigning some arbitrary cutoff date for the "Rocky Mountain Fur
Trade
>Era" it is unhistorical and unnecessary.

I don't assign any arbitrary cutoff date to the rocky mountain fur trade
era. As far as I know though, the disscussions on this list are centered on
the time period 1800-1850. If my memory serves me correctly the rocky
mountain fur trade became feasible in the late teens, was going good through
the late thirties, and began to wind down towards the end of the forties.

 >There are many, many more references, but I don't have time to catalogue
them
>all.

I don't think dogs were as common as you make it sound. They are known as
mans best friend for a good reason, but there are a lot of instances when it
would be a disadvantage to have one around.

 >I have to give my "Fur Trade" lecture to my freshman history class, and
>I want to brag about the lion I caught yesterday.

I have never hunted lions with hounds. People tell me it's real easy. The
biggest cat I ever got (trapping) was 52#. That would be a bobcat and as
long as we are bragging I would add that it was the largest ever caught in
the state of WI, to my knowledge anyway. I'll never forget the day I
approached my set and found him in it.

northwoods




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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:45:23 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: March 20, 2000 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?


>Buck,
>
>I am inclined to agree with your idea that dogs were very common in the
>trapping expeditions and they are only mentioned when something unusual
>involving them occurs.

I must have missed something. Did Buck say that dogs were very common in the
trapping expeditions? If he did I might give the idea some weight.

northwoods


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:03:44 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: David Jackson

Mad Jack,

I refer you to "David E. Jackson, Field Captain of the Rocky Mountain Fur
Trade." by Vivian L. Talbot. ISBN: 1-886402-01-9
This is one of the few and best works on Davy Jackson.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
Poison River Party Pilgrim

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1980 19:14:06 -0800
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

Just to confirm what somebody wrote earlier, dogs were an important part
of the fur trade in the Canadian Rockies. Alexander Mackenzie and his
voyageurs crossed the Rockies with Mackenzie's dog in tow; this
supposedly inspired Meriwether Lewis later on. In the winter of
1810-1811, David Thompson took dogsled teams over Athabasca Pass, and his
NWCo. partner, Alexander Henry the Younger, took a dogsled team to Howse
Pass. In fact, dogsleds were the main use for dogs in the Canadian fur
trade. References to hunting dogs are slim to none. Dogs were emergency
rations, as well as sometimes being eaten just for the flavour.

Dog bones have been found in at least one Canadian fur post archeological
site in the Rocky Mountains. It was a large dog, probably a Newfoundland
dog, which were widely used in the Canadian fur trade. There are also
several references to feeding dogs in fur post journals. Period artwork
from the Canadian fur trade shows a wide variety of dogs, many of them
surprisingly small. Sorry, I don't know dog breeds, but if someone's
interested, I can tell you what pictures to check out & where to find
them.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:17:50 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

In a message dated 3/20/00 6:05:48 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  And also if I were to be trying to sneak
 through some country un-noticed I wouldn't want old Fido along either. It's
 awful hard to communicate to a dog why it's important to not bark, or chase
 a deer, or defecate in a certain spot (for trapping thats a no-no) it's just
 one other factor that is not controllable in a lot of respects. >>

Dogs can be trained not to bark, and none of my dogs chase deer (or anything
else but lions, bobcats and bear).  A good dog can be taken along on the
trapline, and of course they ARE every single day by true woodsmen all over
North America.  As I've said before, I can think of several government and
private professional trappers, and every one of them has a dog for use on the
trapline.

Common trapping lore has it that wolves are the very hardest animals to trap.
 But in the 1920s the US Biological Survey was spearheading the wolf
eradication program throughout the west.  According the USDA Bio. Survey
Annual Report, New Mexico, 1920, each of the government wolf trappers
employed were also lion hunters (houndsmen).  Yet they were successful in
trapping the very last of the wiliest wolves in the Southwest.  If a trapper
thinks that his dog is going to wreck his sets, then a good dog can be left
in camp.

The point is no decent hunter/trapper ever takes "old Fido" along.  Instead
they take along a 100% trash broke, sensible, tough, and totally courageous
hunting dog that could be depended on to do what it was told, or it was
immediately culled.  People that deal with common yard dogs have no concept
of what a well-bred, well-trained working dog is capable of.

jrs

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:33:08 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: DOGS ?

Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
Pendleton


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:24:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver hats

I was on the Internet tonight looking up Beaver Oil in a keyword search.  I
don't recommend you do that with small children in the room.

However, I found a Canadian Fur Trade website for Children and I even learned
a thing or two myself, although I've been full grown awhile now.

I didn't know that beaver hats came into fashion in Europe as early as 1625.
Or that people in the 1600s thought beaver hats held supernational powers.
It was believed that if you rubbed beaver oil onto your hair it would help
your memory.  For those suffering hearing loss, it was rumored a beaver hat
improved hearing.

A beaver's fur has two kinds of hair; a short, thick, soft woolly layer and a
longer coarse layer.  The coarser, long hairs were removed leaving only the
shorter woolly layer.  The shorter hairs have little barbs on the end that
you can only see under a microscope.  When pressed hard, the barbs interlock
with each other, making a solid fabric.  This is felting.  (I always thought
they shaved the pelt to make the hat.)  Once felted the pelt was no longer
furry and was ready to be made into a hat.

I had never heard this.  Furs that had been worn by Indians (called First
Nations people on this web site) were called "coat beaver."  After wearing a
year or more, the longer, coarser hairs had been worn off and these furs
brought in a high price in the fur trade.

The site also has sections on Forts, Rivers, Women of the fur trade, Links,
Extensions, Arts and Crafts, and Links.  I even found myself a song to sing
at my next Rendezvous -- downloaded the sheet music and the audio file --
"Ah! Si Mon Moine Voulait Danser."  Ain't that pretty.  After a few camp
kettles of rum, even them that don't speak French will understand every word.
 Of course, you might prefer, "Cumbaya Seigneur."

Yep, that's Kumbaya, My Lord to you and me.  Who ever knew it was time-period
appropriate.  Maybe it's only appropriate if sung in French after copious
amounts of rum or red liqour.

www.lafete.org/Ft.e/Ae_INDX.htm

Au revoir, mes amis.
Dick Summers

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:22:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

In a message dated 3/20/00 7:34:42 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 I have never hunted lions with hounds. People tell me it's real easy. The
 biggest cat I ever got (trapping) was 52#. That would be a bobcat and as
 long as we are bragging I would add that it was the largest ever caught in
 the state of WI, to my knowledge anyway. I'll never forget the day I
 approached my set and found him in it.
  >>


C'mon out easterner, and I'll show you some "real easy."

jrs

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:54:59 -0500
From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Linen

Linda,

You seem to be quite knowledgable about clothing.  Do you
know what weight and weave of linen garment fabric
would have been available to the 1820 fur trade in St. Louis?

Thanks!

Tom


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:08:29 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs?

Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter, p.176 quoting Robert Newell's Memoranda
of Travel in Missouri (specifically among the Crows), pp. 34-36:

December 13, 1837 - near Fort Van Buren [mouth of Tongue River], the
Crow trading post:   " ... Men took dogs and brought our baggage.  Dogs
are used here in winter to pack and haul."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:26:52 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?

Hello Larry Pendleton,

You might take a look at the inventory available to the ones who rendezvous
from 1825-1837.  You could buy.  Umbrellas, India rubber canteens, iron
bound canteens.  Shoes, both mens and womens.  Flour was available in large
amounts.  Hardly Spartan conditions.  The small bunch of a 100 or so were
only a limited part of the beaver men in the area of the northern Rocky
Mountains.  And they don't call them pot lickers for nothing.  I proved cast
iron ovens were available from Fort Union Trading Post 1828-1850, including
the flat bottomed Dutch Oven.  Where do you hail from?  What is your outfit
composed of?  Which element of the mountain man holds your interest?
Walt
Park City, Montana







- ----- Original Message -----
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
To: "mountain lists" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:33 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: DOGS ?


> Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
> Pendleton
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:35:40 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

Hello JRS,
VBG.  My kid brother took up cat hunting with dogs in the 70s here in
Montana.  That fat boy got in pretty good shape behind his dogs.  I have
seen 3 big cats in the day light only 3 times in 50 years of hunting in
Montana.  2 were south of the Big Hole towards Horse Prairie.  The third was
in the Little Belt Mountains near Kings Hill. in the early 80s.  Bobcats are
a different story.  I hunted them with a bow and arrow in the 50s and was
successful as long as I hunted alone.
Walt
Park City, Montana



- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?


> In a message dated 3/20/00 7:34:42 PM SA Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<
>  I have never hunted lions with hounds. People tell me it's real easy. The
>  biggest cat I ever got (trapping) was 52#. That would be a bobcat and as
>  long as we are bragging I would add that it was the largest ever caught
in
>  the state of WI, to my knowledge anyway. I'll never forget the day I
>  approached my set and found him in it.
>   >>
>
>
> C'mon out easterner, and I'll show you some "real easy."
>
> jrs
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:39:36 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

Good Post John,
One of the really neat things about dogs is you can use them to help bring
in winter fire wood.  No small task.  Especially here in south central
Montana.
Walt
Park City, Montana




- ----- Original Message -----
From: "JON MARINETTI" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 9:08 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs?


> Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter, p.176 quoting Robert Newell's Memoranda
> of Travel in Missouri (specifically among the Crows), pp. 34-36:
>
> December 13, 1837 - near Fort Van Buren [mouth of Tongue River], the
> Crow trading post:   " ... Men took dogs and brought our baggage.  Dogs
> are used here in winter to pack and haul."
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> from Michigan
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:43:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?

In a message dated 3/20/00 7:28:02 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>

Pendleton

 >>

Haaaaa..... don't get em strated Pendleton!!!!!??!


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:45:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

Excuse my bragging and blowing.  Back to the documents:

Zenas Leonard's narrative (ADVENTURES OF A MOUNTAIN MAN, Lincoln, 1978) pg.
192
"To-day Capt. Walker returned from the settlements well supplied with such
articles as he was in need of-- bringing with him 100 horses, 47 cow cattle,
and 30 or 35 dogs, together with some flour, corn, beans, &c., suitable for
our subsistance in the long journey, for which every man was now busily
engaged in making preparations."

pg. 209 "Our horses, cattle and dogs were almost exhausted this morning.
[They were crossing the Great Basin] The pitiful lamentations of our dogs
were sufficient to melt the hardest heart. The dumb brutes suffered more for
want of water than food, and these dogs, when death threatened to seize them,
would approach the men, look them right in the face with the countenances of
a distracted person, and if no help could be afforded, would commence a
piteous and lamentable howl, drop down and expire."

pg. 211 "We now had the greatest trouble to keep our beasts from killing
themselves drinking water-- in which we succeeded only in part, and were thus
occupied until daylight, when we counted our force for the purpose of
ascertaining how much loss we sustained by undertaking to cross the desert,
and found that we had lost 64 horses, 10 cows and 15 dogs."

Now these were not trained hunting dogs brought along on a trapping
expedition, rather, they were probably just common pot-lickers picked up in
the California settlements.  But why did they purchase them?  They were
apparently a valued commodity in the Rocky Mountain region in the mid-1830s.

jrs

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:03:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings

In a message dated 3/20/00 4:18:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<

Don't you mean "Brain Tan Trousers or Knee Britches" under leggings? I

remain.....

 >>

No...... I'm wondering which one, brain tan trousers or brain tan leggings,
were the most common. I'm trying to decide whether to go the legging route
with wool breeches, or just get a pair of brain tan trousers. As you
mentioned off line, knee britches, long wool stockings, with brain tan
leggings over all, would seem to be the best way to go. Ya don't havta git
nakid to dry out!   (preddy gud vernakular...huh?) lol
Ymos,
Steve

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:08:15 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?

One more thing Larry,

You can call Randy Kane Chief Ranger/Historian Fort Union Trading Post
Nation Historic Site at his office 701-572-9083 or FAXZ 701-572-7321 or
write to the National Park Service RR 3, Box 71 Williston, North Dakota
58801.  The history is there.

Walt
Park City, Montana




- ----- Original Message -----
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
To: "mountain lists" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:33 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: DOGS ?


> Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
> Pendleton
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:10:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

Hey Walt,

I lived a few years in Riverton, WY, there in the Wind River Basin.  I hunted
lions in the Owl Creek Mtns., the Big Horns and the Absarokas.  Just for fun
I hunted coon in the Bighorn Basin and around Sheridan.  Before living in WY
I hunted lions in AZ and later in NM.  Now I hunt in CO, and next week I'm
headed over to southern Utah to hunt with some real cowmen/lion hunters.

I don't claim to be an expert on any kind of hunting, trapping or history,
but I sure have a lot of interest in the afore mentioned.  I have no doubt
that an exceptionally good dog would be a real asset on a 1803-1850 trapping
expedition, and the documnets prove that they were present, at least
occaisionally--possibly regularly.

I thought that you might get a kick out of the W.T. Hamilton reference.  It
is a little-referenced source, but real interesting.  Favour used the heck
out it for his OLD BILL WILLIAMS book (UNC Press, 1936).  So that's why I
posted a query about Hamilton a while back, wondering if he was a dependable
source or just another old-timer spinning "big windies."

As far as dogs and trapping are concerned, I am willing to accept the opinion
of probably the greatest trapper/woodsman currently breathing, 80 some-odd
year old Jake Korell of Riverton, WY.  Jake has a keen interest in the
old-time trappers of "the period" and has been a full-time professional
trapper and trader since he was a kid.  He also was a first-class houndsman
at one time.  I don't suppose there's anyone alive that knows more about
hunting and trapping the critters of the Rocky Mtns., combined with knowledge
of local Indian culture and customs, skill and experience with hunting dogs
and other livestock, and knowledge of the Rocky Mtn. geography.  Now there's
a man whose opinion counts for something, in my book.

If there is a man that embodies the skills, talents, knowledge and attitudes
of the old-time mountain men, then it is definitely Jack Korell, not some
part-time wannabe like myself.  So I'll eventually ask Jake what he thinks of
the dogs on the old-timers' trapping expeditions, and his opinion, combined
with what we can glean from the primary sources, will determine my final
position on the matter.

John

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:16:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

On Dogs

I confine my reading to the events of the Pacific Northwest
(mostly).  There are many references...

Some list the eating of dogs... (Lewis and Clark, Thompson, Alexander
Henry..)
Some list the using of dogs as sled animals (David Thompson)
Some list the use of dogs as beasts of burdens (Flathead, Kutenai)
But...

The only reference I've found (pre 1840), that lists dogs as anything
other than the above, is Merriweather Lewis's Newfoundland.  It could be
that the use of dogs as hunters simply was not noted in the journals
because it was so common?  A possibility, but not likely.

David Thompson does mourn the loss of 2-3 dogs when they ate themselves to
death on Salmon (around 1809 or so), but does not say why he thought the
loss was noteworthy... i.e., a lost meal, a lost sled dog, a lost hunting
dog, etc.

I have just begun to scratch the surface of all the possible readings, but
that is my findings in the Pacific Northwest from the 1790's through 1840
or so.... there are many more books to check...

Your Most Obedient Servant...

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:40:37 -0600
From: "Matt  P" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

- -----Original Message-----
From: northwoods <[e-mail]>>
>Which dog magazine? I would like to look at this article. My wife and I get
>most of the "dog magazines"  at our vet clinic, but I hardly ever get a
>chance to look at any. If I have the magazine, don't bother buying it I can
>send it to ya if you would like.
>
>northwoods

I don't remember exactly which one I saw it in (Dog Fancy, Dog&Kennel, ?),
but I will pick one up Wednesday (tomorrow), and will be able to tell you
about it then.
Matt in Texas
<[e-mail]>
                Moonwolf's Den
http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:44:11 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

"I'll eventually ask Jake what he thinks of  the dogs on the old-timers'
trapping expeditions, and his opinion, combined
 with what we can glean from the primary sources, will determine my final
position on the matter. John"

Ah Ho John,
The old boy is one generation ahead of me and it sounds like he has had a
wonderful life in the country he loved to live in.  35 years ago I had the
pleasure of meeting Bruce Neal out of Sun River Canyon.  He also was a breed
apart.  Bruce was the man who trapped what is now called the Bob Marshall
Wilderness.  A plumb practical man.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:03:18 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:17:50 EST [e-mail] writes:
> The point is no decent hunter/trapper ever takes "old Fido" along.
> Instead
> they take along a 100% trash broke, sensible, tough, and totally
> courageous
> hunting dog that could be depended on to do what it was told, or it
> was
> immediately culled.  People that deal with common yard dogs have no
> concept
> of what a well-bred, well-trained working dog is capable of.
>
> jrs

Darn well put JRS----

the dog you are speaking of does exist but not much in our todays
society---takes a lot of time and trouble to train a dog and have him do
exactly what you want---you almost have to have him with you 24 hrs a day
for the first 3 or 4 years of his life---and when i say with you i mean
just that---

my brother has a springer spannel that he has had since a pup---dog goes
everwhere with him including the office---float trips on the river and
when he goes uptown to a restrant my brother tells his dog to sit by the
door of the cafe or to stay in the bed of the truck----that is just what
he does-----and at the door you can pet the dog in the truck dont get
near it you get a lot of teeth and are not made very welcome---brother
doesnt roll up the windows and tells his dog to watch the truck---even
leaves his keys in it---"one thing for sure if you are not family you
wont be getting in that truck and live---

the point being made is yes a well trained dog will work but one that is
less than 100% isnt---especially on a trapline---I had a couple and only
one was ever allowed to go with me---would never get in a trap or go near
a set---when i needed to reset i would tell it to sit off away from the
trap then set it and bait it and go on ---and unless i would sick it on
something it would not rush up to something caught in the trap---dog was
a lot of help with ki-dogs on a drag---would get me close enough to know
wher the trap and ki-dog was then i would go on from ther without the
dog---set my pack basket down and tell the dog to guard the baskey---and
i would fo my thing---

YMHOSANT
        =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:40:43 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs?

northwoods---
got a few of them cat critters in my traps when i was a kid but never one
as big as yours---and if i had a dog with me i sure wouldnt want to try
to seperate them---and I bet when you saw that cat in your trap you sure
didnt say    "Nice Kitty"  especially if you didnt have a 22 rifle with
you ---we cought a lot of ki-dogs and they would try to eat you up if you
had one in a trap---not friendly at all---especially if you had your trap
on a drag and not tied down solid---lots of fun---


YMHOSANT
      =+=
    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:21:52 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DOGS ?

I think he may have, just probably never wrote about it because it was such
an obvious everyday occurrence.

northwoods


- -----Original Message-----
From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
To: mountain lists <[e-mail]>
Date: March 20, 2000 9:27 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: DOGS ?


>Ya'll reckin Ruxton ever fed his Dog out of a Dutch Oven ?  <GG>
>Pendleton
>
>
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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 06:39:15 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linen

There you have me....my expertise lies in certain areas of Native American
clothing.

Linda Holley

tom roberts wrote:

> Linda,
>
> You seem to be quite knowledgable about clothing.  Do you
> know what weight and weave of linen garment fabric
> would have been available to the 1820 fur trade in St. Louis?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom
>
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