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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 07:49:06 -0800
From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Flag?
Just a couple.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ole B. Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
To: hist_text <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Flag?
>Ho the camp!
>I must be getting old but as I remember don't we have a flag?
>What does it look like and where can I get one? sure would like to display
>it proudly at camp.
>Bill, do you have any hat's left?
>YMOS
>Ole # 718
>
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Date: 12 Mar 2000 07:13:08 -0800
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
> The mountain men in the Rocky Mountains (and every other frontier) used whatever grease they had when they needed it which could be from any of the native animals, in civilized areas several plants could be processed for oil.......JOHN, I'M SUPRISED THAT YOU DIDN'T MENTION BUFFALO LARD, IF RENDERED CORRECTLY AND NOT BURNED IN THE PROCESS IT WILL LAST FOR YEARS. I USE IT TO COOK WITH, GREASE THE GUN, LUBE ABOUT ANY OF MY GEAR, ADD BEESWAX TO IT FOR WATERPROOFING. I HAVE SOME THAT'S 10 YEARS OLD (TESTING TO SEE WHAT IT'S LIFE IS) LEAVE IT IN THE GARAGE, SO IT MAY EXPERIENCE TEMP. FROM THE LOW 40'S AND UP AS HIGH AS THE LOW 80'S IN DEGREES AND SO FAR IS LIKE IT WAS WHEN I FIRST RENDERED IT, NO ODOR - CLEAR COLOR (WHITE), USED IT AT OUR LAST PARTY CAMP TO GREASE THE POT, JUST FINE.
WANT TO RESUPPLY THIS WONDERFUL PRODUCT VERY SHORTLY, HAVE A FRIEND THAT NEEDS TO PUT DOWN A RANK BULL THAT HAS LOTS OF BODY FAT FROM HIS APPEARANCE (THE BULL).
ISN'T THE REASON THAT GAME ANIMAL GREASE WORKS AND DOM. LIVESTOCK DOESN'T IS BECAUSE THE LIVESTOCK IS FEED SALT WHICH WILL APPEAR IN THEIR MEAT AND FAT, THOUGHT I READ THIS YEARS AGO ???
> Bear was favored (particularly in cooking) beaver was usually handy to folks who trapped beaver for a living. Grease was grease.......I SHOT A BEAR AT A AMISH FRIENDS PLACE NEAR MILROY PA. MANY YEARS AGO, WORD SPREAD THROUGH THE AREA AND BEFORE LONG A HALF DOZEN OLDER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY SHOWED UP. THEY DEMANDED THE FAT (LARD) FOR MEDICAL PURPOSES, BEING IN MOSTLY AN AMISH AREA I GAVE THEM WHAT THEY WANTED. LATER A HUNTING FRIEND SAID "THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN FIGHTING, TELL THEM TO FORGET" - I REPLIED, "TO DAMN GOOD A HUNTING SPOT TO MAKE ANYONE GET UPSET PLUS ONE OF THOSE BIG BOYS CAN GIVE YOU A BROTHERLY HUG THAT WILL BREAK RIBS" - BEEN THERE, DONE THAT YEARS AGO NEAR LANCASTER PA.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 09:22:47 -0600
From: "Matthew Porter" <pmporter@up-link.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: lubricant (was Ho the List!!)
A good period lube would be basilicon. It is made by mixing warm olive oil
and melted beeswax at a 5:1 ratio, oil to wax. After it is mixed good, pour
it into a container and let it set out and cool. It also makes good lip
balm. I made some last night.
Matt
Porter
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:04:44 -0800
From: "Poorboy" <poorboy@ieway.com>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
>If you speak thusly you only encourage the continued slaughter of a too
>depleted specie. Be thankful you have some and shut up, you encourage
others
>to want some. That is what creates markets and commerce.
Klahowya John,
I must strenuously disagree here. Most of us on this list are
research-history oriented, and to omit historically accurate information due
to modern concerns is the most vile kind of revisionist history. We are all
aware of the plight of the whales and respect that.
Whale oil is in fact one of the best natural oils available. Its
availability in the RMFT may be questionable. I do agree with you and
Gazing Coyote that the frontiersman would use the cheapest most abundant
product available to him, which I do not believe was whale oil.
However, to omit pertinent historical information, because it might raise
eyebrows by today's standards, is unforgivable. Accurate information is
hard enough to come by without this type of confusion.
(Supporting Story Here) Many years ago, I met a couple of AMM guys. In
fact one of them introduced me to this lifestyle of ours, and brought me
very far along on my journey. However, these guys harped that many items
were totally wrong for the RMFT persona. Were over critical of other
peoples gear and down right rude at times. My own research showed that many
of these items were present in the RMFT and were correct. Albeit, many of
them were uncommon, or rare....and in some cases they were right, the items
should not have been there. This negative experience turned me off of the
AMM for many years. I based my opinion of the AMM on my interpretation of
my experiences with these guys.
In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be
present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in the
RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate. To allow this, provides the
opportunity for the items to become common at the modern rend. and then
create the impression that they were common/accurate historically.
Revisionist history of an equally vile nature.
Since coming to this list I have confirmed the beliefs that I have developed
over the ensuing years. Not all AMM members are rude and obtrusive about
their beliefs. Our portrayal of history must be based on the common sense
use of historically accurate information. To exclude research because it is
not appropriate to our modern way of thinking, is as great a crime as
supporting theories as facts or reporting inaccuracies as the whole truth.
We are all big boys here that deserve the benefit of each others research in
it entirety. We can make our own personal values, decisions, and
applications of that research. And if we are to continue the existence of a
strong, historically accurate portrayal of history than we must mention with
discussion and clarification those things that are rare, uncommon, or
considered inappropriate by today's standards.
I apologize for the length of this posting. I thank each of you for your
time and considerations, and remain...
Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant
PoorBoy
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:24:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Flag
Ole, you are correct about having a flag. Walt
Hayward had the only one Iever saw, and that was many
many moons ago. As I recall, it was sky blue upper
half and earth brown lower with the same logo that
appears on T&LR in a circle. I don't remember the
color of the circle. Perhaps my memory will jog some
other old-timers memory as to more details. Sorry I
can't recall more details, but I only have half a mind
left, and so remember about half the stuff half the
The last time I saw the AMM flag was in 1974 or 1976 at the Nationals (can't remember which year), Ray Turner and Dick Whitmer (AMM members) took me over to meet Walt and several others.
We have been really pushing the mountainman models (western & eastern), that's fine and from what Allen writes the cases are starting to look really good.
Sounds like we may have some extra money left from the "nesting pot" fund. This is great and wonderful,.
BUT have we discuss the possible of one more image - a Native American that we could clothed and maybe use Bailey's bow with and the arrows, the clout, etc. ???? If we have enough left over for a used model, I'm sure we can come up with clothing.
If this is possible I will dig up another pair of center seam mocs, a shirt, a buffalo jaw bone club, horse dance stick, 12-13 in. turtle shell, gourd drinking cup, buffalo bladder skin (used for quills), a woven wood ladel, beaver skull, and what ever else I find. Can you tell I'm cleaning out my den to paint!
Just think of what else this person would need, does anyone's wife have an old wig we could die black and braid for this person.
Remember these people where both friend and enemy to the mountainman, could mean a good season or one that sucked. We need to address this issue also when talking about the AMM display.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
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"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:46:48 -0800
From: "Poorboy" <poorboy@ieway.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Klahowya Northwoods,
Yes you are correct. I agree that the RMFTrappers were a group of vast
individualists and a variety of items may have been transported west by them
and later by the supply trains. However, and there are many arguments as
too availability verses existence, much of what was available is documented.
I would also put forth the following thoughts. We all present our personas
in different formats and functions. If one is making a presentation to the
uninformed public, i.e.: schools, museums, cub scouts, things can be
explained in and out of persona. The presenter can take the time to explain
the availability or frequency of items in a certain location. Thus
identifying the correctness verses availability issues, and not revisiting
the perception of history. I would express the caution to everyone that
even if you take the time to explain these things, often what is remembered
by the public is what you are wearing and what artifacts you present to
them. In my opinion it is better to portray the most realistic/common, and
explain or show the rest. I have made presentations like this for many
years and my theory is this: You can make a kid (person) sit through all of
the classes and memorize bits about names and dates , over and over. But
show that same person an actual artifact or recreated piece of history and
their eyes grow as big as saucers, and they will remember that little piece
of history the rest of their lives. Especially if you allow them to handle
that piece of history.
Now at a modern rendezvous, it is a little different. I feel we are dealing
with a certain amount of educated research oriented people who deserve to
share in as accurate an experience as possible. You also have a certain
amount of people at various stages of the education process. They are
always looking to the more experienced to show them the way. And yes many
hold the AMM in the highest esteem. This should in turn encourage those
being examined to hold there own presentation and research to the highest
examination. There are also times to explain away the rest around the camp
fires. There is a very real danger of once allowing the rare/uncommon items
in that everyone will soon think of himself as one of the exception cases.
Next thing you know people perceive those things as common.
And there are certainly get togethers that are more relaxed and I would hope
that people know the difference. Unfortunately, this is not always the
case. Therefore, I put forth that a person claiming to be knowledgeable and
especially those belonging to an educated class as the AMM, are honor bound
to be as accurate as much as possible, as one never knows who is looking and
may not be at the campfire later to hear the qualifying discussions.
As an aside, I am not an AMM member, am still waiting for my invite. I am
planning to obtain my teaching certificate soon, and dedicate myself to my
life's dream of sharing our history with our children.
History is the key to our future, use it to open the door.
I remain your most Obedient and Humble Servant,
PoorBoy
Please if anyone, especially an AMM member thinks I am way off on this
please share your thoughts.
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Date: 12 Mar 2000 10:57:03 -0800
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Poorboy" wrote:
> (Supporting Story Here) Many years ago, I met a couple of AMM guys. In fact one of them introduced me to this lifestyle of ours, and brought me very far along on my journey. However, these guys harped that many items were totally wrong for the RMFT persona. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ALL GROUPS NO MATTER WHAT THEIR NAME HAVE HAD A FEW PROBLEMS WITH STRONG MINDED MEMBERS THAT WON'T GIVE GOOD SOUND RESEARCH A SECOND LOOK. TOO BAD YOU GOT A PAIR.
> This negative experience turned me off of the AMM for many years. I based my opinion of the AMM on my interpretation of my experiences with these guys.
> In reflection, the premise of the AMM that certain things should not be present at the modern rendezvous, because they were rare or uncommon in the RMFT prior to 1840 is very appropriate. To allow this, provides the opportunity for the items to become common at the modern rend. and then create the impression that they were common/accurate historically.
I THINK ALL OF US AGREE - MOUNTAINMAN, REV. WAR OR F&I REENACTER. JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE STARTS USING AN ITEM FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER DOESN'T MAKE IT CORRECT IN ANY TIME PERIOD. LOOK AT THE ICE CHESTS OR BEER CANS SEEN SO OFTEN.
> Since coming to this list I have confirmed the beliefs that I have developed over the ensuing years. Not all AMM members are rude and obtrusive about their beliefs.
THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN ALL THE GROUPS INCLUDING THE AMM, WITH THE ADVENT OF BETTER RESEARCH, THE INTERNET TO PASS NEW FOUND RESEARCH, EVERYONE IS STARTING TO COME ON BOARD AND DO THEIR HOMEWORK. BEING AMM AND IN THE PERIOD FOOD AND CAMPWARE BUSINESS - RESEARCH IS THE ONLY WORD WE KNOW, GOOD SOUND DOCUMENTATION.
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Date: 12 Mar 2000 14:29:58 -0800
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
On Sun, 12 March 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote:
> Indeed the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade covers a lot of ground. One of the things I enjoy most about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous are the different camps represented by people..................
> > And let us not forget that the rendezvous was a very small part of the mountain man's existence. Many traveled over the entire west, often they were found in the far flung communities such as Yerba Buena, Taos, Bent's................
> > For those whose interests are more in learning the skills that helped the original mountain men survive, rather than reenacting, the range broadens............
Many more than most would think have given up on rendezvous years ago because of what has been mentioned in the last few posts.
I for one haven't been to any large event since a canoe trip from Ft. Osage to Ft. deCharter in 1995, seems some of the doings have gotten so large that the groups handling them have lost control, with the public, the traders and the folks attending.
So rather than open my big mouth and tell them (the ones running the show) about the trader's in camo's or the guy telling a story to the public that's way off from what is documented, a half dozen of us just do our treks, canoe trips and horseback adventurers unannounced.
Those that have known me for the last 25-30 years don't believe I now keep still, maybe a slow learner or I've just got tired of trying. One thing, it sure makes life easier not having to fight these battles, or Fish & Game for more muzzleloading lic., etc.
The list has had some really interesting items of late, could jump in more but don't one to be a pain in the you know what.
Later
Buck Conner
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Date: 12 Mar 2000 15:29:41 -0800
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!]
On Sun, 12 March 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> Have to agree with you how some of the big events have gotten lost in the original intent of the affair.
>
> Makes me sad to see you finally calm down, Buck you where very entertaining at those Moose & Goose meeting telling the director he better wakeup, that
> muzzlelaoders where voters too. The good old days that many of us still talk about, you and the "Out Gang" where fun.
I hope some of you have paid attention and are paying attention to what's happening with our game laws, after all the work here in Colorado to get a muzzleloading season, now it's in trouble again like many other states. You have to lobby your Fish & Game if need be and go to those open meeting.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
Aux Aliments de Pays!
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 18:34:41 -0500
From: "D Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
Buck,
That is prety much what we do here.... Quiet, low key and private affairs
that conforn to no-one standardsor criticisms but our own.
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
"Knowing how is just the beginning"
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Date: 12 Mar 2000 15:42:53 -0800
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ho the list!!
On Sun, 12 March 2000, "D Miles" wrote:
>
> Buck,
> That is prety much what we do here.... Quiet, low key and private affairs
> that conforn to no-one standardsor criticisms but our own.
> D
Dennis,
Have you got that right, the only one to judge you is yourself and by now we have become the hardest to please. Have never gotten into the crap of putting others down like so many, if you do your research for your time period you know what is correct. Then a year goes by and more documentation is found and your back to changing items found not really right. That's what this whole thing is about, trying to get as close as possible and experience what our forefathers had to deal with, food, clothing, equipage, the elements.
Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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