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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #482 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, March 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 482 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort -áááááá MtMan-List: History of Dutch ovens -áááááá MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles -áááááá MtMan-List: Common misconception -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Feb 2000 17:24:38 -0700 From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort May I make a suggestion? Perhaps a call to Bent's Fort and ask them for a = list of the items brought to the Fort during the Fur Trade days might show = whether cast iron pots were brought in on supply trains. Don Keas On Wednesday, April 19, 1939, northwoods@ez-net.com wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Date: February 29, 2000 12:59 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort > > > >> First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One = large >>iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles = was >>recovered from Bent's well." The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't = a >>clear reference-which well? By association with another artifact-a pump-= it >>was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2. > >It is clear which well was meant. "Bent's Well" means the well that was >attributed to the Bent period. The other well was attributed to the >stagecoach period. Your correct in that the wooden pump also came from = Bents >well. > > >The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well >wasn't >>clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if = the >>pot dates from the Bent period or later. > >I would argue that conclusion. In fact, I don't see how you can say that. = My >report states (the original report): >"The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of = the >shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by >being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at = the >top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on = up >is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period >origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." >When he states that "The fill from here on up" he means that beggining = from >the "top" of the burned and partially collapsed well structure, the well >room was "capped" by stagecoach period material. >The reason he pointed that out is to support his next statement = indicating >that he believed the well room was unquestionably of the Bent period, and >there was a clear stratigraphy shown. All of the material excavated from >the"well" in room w2 were of Bent period. > > > > >> Also on page 108 "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with >>upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals." None of these are >>illustrated, they aren't mentioned in the descriptions of the rooms. >>Without this information, thething we can do. > >The report I have shows a good picture of a lid that came out of the room >SE2. Dr. Dick felt this room was Bents personal room. He also attributed >this to the Bent period. It is cast iron with an upturned rim "deep = enough >to hold glowing coals" as is stated in the report. > > (>Conclusions: >> Much as I wish it were otherwise, at this point I am not prepared to = say >>that this book provides proof that "dutch ovens" were used in the fur >>trade. I have begun a search for a copy of the actual artifact = inventory >>from the excavation. > >The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three >legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. > >I will post pictures for everyone else to see and judge for themselves. I >have been waiting on additional information that will show the antiquity = of >the "dutch oven" and its development and use in the U.S. > >northwoods > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:22:18 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: February 29, 2000 10:46 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort >>The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three >>legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. > Well, it shows that "cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged cooking >implements" were present when the fort was excavated, but until the >placement of the pot in the well is made clear it would be inaccurate to >say that it report proves the implement was there when the fort burned. At >best, it opens the possibility. Without field notes or the actual >archaeological report, this is unclear. I think it would be best to just skip to the jist of the matter and not let this degenarate into an argument over how to interprut the information in the report. Here are the facts: The large iron pot was found in the well.The well itself was a vertical shaft lined with planks which was 10' deep.The well was in a "well room" which was a 6' by 6' by 5.5' deep rectangular hole, with 4 vertical uprites in each corner and plank lined walls which had stairs leading down into it. The "well room" was in another room wich was called room w2. For the sake of simplicity and clarity I will repeat what the report states: "The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of the shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at the top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." There is no intermingling of items in the well shaft!!!!!!!! (sorry for yelling) The "cap" that has the associated materials begins at the top of the well room. The report also indicates that the floor of room w2 was LOWER than it had originally been in the bent period. This seems to suggest (to me anyway) that when people came to reoccupy the fort at a later date, they filled in the partially collapsed well room with the original Bent floor in effect lowering the floor level and creating the "cap".The reason for pointing out the "capped" stratification in the report was to lend weight to his opinion that this well room and shaft, and the objects found in them, were exclusively from bents occupation.When people came to reoccupy the fort, they did not attempt to dig the well out and utilize it. They filled over it and dug a different well which is in another room that was attributed to the stagecoach era. The iron pot was found "in" the well. There was no intermingling of periods in the well. Here is a photo of the "dutch oven" in question: http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG The lid found in another room and attributed to the Bent period: http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/lid.JPG I would be happy to box up the report I have and ship it to anyone else who has enough of an interest in this subject to want to read it themselves. As far as I am concerned, the report is clear in what it states about the items in question and the time periods they are attributed to. Thats all I am going to say on the subject. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:54:50 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF82F7.383B3300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank Goodness ! ! ! !=20 I'm about wore out on "Dutch Ovens" or cast iron pots, or whatever ye = want to call them. Pert near used up my delete key. <G> Pendleton=20 -----Original Message----- From: northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: February 29, 2000 10:46 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort =20 =20 =20 >>The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, = three >>legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. > Well, it shows that "cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged = cooking >implements" were present when the fort was excavated, but until the >placement of the pot in the well is made clear it would be = inaccurate to >say that it report proves the implement was there when the fort = burned. At >best, it opens the possibility. Without field notes or the actual >archaeological report, this is unclear. =20 =20 I think it would be best to just skip to the jist of the matter and = not let this degenarate into an argument over how to interprut the = information in the report. Here are the facts: The large iron pot was found in the well.The well itself was a = vertical shaft lined with planks which was 10' deep.The well was in a "well = room" which was a 6' by 6' by 5.5' deep rectangular hole, with 4 vertical = uprites in each corner and plank lined walls which had stairs leading down = into it. The "well room" was in another room wich was called room w2. =20 For the sake of simplicity and clarity I will repeat what the report = states: "The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher = levels of the shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were = preserved by being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial = collapse at the top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from = here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach = period origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." =20 There is no intermingling of items in the well shaft!!!!!!!! (sorry = for yelling) The "cap" that has the associated materials begins at the top of the = well room. The report also indicates that the floor of room w2 was LOWER than = it had originally been in the bent period. This seems to suggest (to me = anyway) that when people came to reoccupy the fort at a later date, they = filled in the partially collapsed well room with the original Bent floor in = effect lowering the floor level and creating the "cap".The reason for = pointing out the "capped" stratification in the report was to lend weight to his = opinion that this well room and shaft, and the objects found in them, were exclusively from bents occupation.When people came to reoccupy the = fort, they did not attempt to dig the well out and utilize it. They filled = over it and dug a different well which is in another room that was = attributed to the stagecoach era. The iron pot was found "in" the well. There was = no intermingling of periods in the well. Here is a photo of the "dutch oven" in question: =20 http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG =20 The lid found in another room and attributed to the Bent period: =20 http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/lid.JPG =20 I would be happy to box up the report I have and ship it to anyone = else who has enough of an interest in this subject to want to read it = themselves. As far as I am concerned, the report is clear in what it states about = the items in question and the time periods they are attributed to. Thats all I = am going to say on the subject. =20 northwoods =20 =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF82F7.383B3300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Thank Goodness ! ! ! ! </DIV> <DIV>I'm about wore = out on=20 "Dutch Ovens" or cast iron pots, or whatever ye want to call=20 them. Pert near used up my delete key. = <G></DIV> <DIV>Pendleton </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 northwoods <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:northwoods@ez-net.com">northwoods@ez-net.com</A>> <B= >To:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Pots at Bent's Old Fort </DIV> -----Original=20 Message----- From: Jim Colburn <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:jc60714@navix.net">jc60714@navix.net</A>> To: = <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 February 29, 2000 10:46 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at = Bent's Old=20 Fort >>The report clearly proves that there was = cast=20 iron, flat bottomed, three >>legged cooking implements at = Bents=20 Fort at the time it burned. > Well, it shows that "cast = iron,=20 flat bottomed, three legged cooking >implements" were = present=20 when the fort was excavated, but until the >placement of the = pot in=20 the well is made clear it would be inaccurate to >say that it = report=20 proves the implement was there when the fort burned. = At >best,=20 it opens the possibility. Without field notes or the=20 actual >archaeological report, this is unclear. I = think it=20 would be best to just skip to the jist of the matter and not = let this=20 degenarate into an argument over how to interprut the information = in the=20 report. Here are the facts: The large iron pot was found in the = well.The=20 well itself was a vertical shaft lined with planks which was 10' = deep.The=20 well was in a "well room" which was a 6' by 6' by 5.5' = deep=20 rectangular hole, with 4 vertical uprites in each corner and = plank lined=20 walls which had stairs leading down into it. The "well = room" was in another room wich was called room w2. For = the sake=20 of simplicity and clarity I will repeat what the report = states: "The=20 fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of=20 the shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were=20 preserved by being water logged. The well room itself indicates a = partial=20 collapse at the top which gives it the profile of an inverted = bell. The=20 fill from here on up is a "cap" with associated = materials which=20 confirm its stagecoach period origin. The well complex is = unquestionably=20 of the Bent period." There is no intermingling of items = in the=20 well shaft!!!!!!!! (sorry for yelling) The "cap" = that has=20 the associated materials begins at the top of the = well room. The=20 report also indicates that the floor of room w2 was LOWER than it=20 had originally been in the bent period. This seems to suggest (to = me=20 anyway) that when people came to reoccupy the fort at a later = date, they=20 filled in the partially collapsed well room with the original = Bent floor=20 in effect lowering the floor level and creating the = "cap".The=20 reason for pointing out the "capped" stratification in = the=20 report was to lend weight to his opinion that this well room and = shaft,=20 and the objects found in them, were exclusively from bents=20 occupation.When people came to reoccupy the fort, they did not = attempt to=20 dig the well out and utilize it. They filled over it and dug a = different=20 well which is in another room that was attributed to the = stagecoach=20 era. The iron pot was found "in" the well. There was=20 no intermingling of periods in the well. Here is a photo of = the=20 "dutch oven" in question: <A=20 = href=3D"http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG">http://user= s.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG</A> The=20 lid found in another room and attributed to the Bent = period: <A=20 = href=3D"http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/lid.JPG">http://users.ez-net.= com/~northwoods/lid.JPG</A> I=20 would be happy to box up the report I have and ship it to anyone = else=20 who has enough of an interest in this subject to want to read it=20 themselves. As far as I am concerned, the report is clear in what = it=20 states about the items in question and the time periods they are=20 attributed to. Thats all I am going to say on the=20 = subject. northwoods ---------------------- hist_= text=20 list info: <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF82F7.383B3300-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:34:03 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: MtMan-List: History of Dutch ovens I was in the process of sending the book "Dutch Ovens Chronicled" to Mike Rock for him to read since he has such an interest in the subject, but due to my recent involvement in this discussion as it relates to Dutch ovens being found at Bents Fort I had it re-routed to me first so I could examine the information contained therein.(Sorry Mike). The book is written by John Ragsdale, who is a leading expert on the development, care, and use of Dutch ovens. It states in part: From the seventh and later centuries we find references to cast iron kettles and caldrons. The kettle is a metal vessel with straight sides the diameter of which increases from the bottom to the top. They were used for boiling. The pot is generally a bulbous vessel that narrows near the top and then flares out top the rim. A pot is a stewing or simmering vessel that can easily accept a lid. Until the start of the eighteenth century, in England iron was cast into molds of baked loam or clay soil. Drawbacks to this casting method were that the clay doil formed a rough mold and the surface of the metal surface of the vessel was not smooth, and what was more important is that the molds were not well consolidated, and when the cast material was removed, the molds were destroyed. For many years, apparently, foundry technology was more advanced in the Holland area, and many cast-iron vessels were imported into Britain. These early pots were usually thick walled and heavy. In 1704 Abraham Darby traveled to Holland to inspect casting of some brass vessels in dry sand molds which used a better molding sand and mold-baking technique to provide smooth castings and better molds. In 1708 he received a patent for the process and soon thereafterbegan producing a large number of pots at his furnace in Coalbrookdale. It is possible with the adaptation of this Dutch system for this patent may have led to some colloquial or even later references to the Dutch pots. This is possibly the root for the later Dutch ovens. Generally, pots made before the mid eighteenth century were cast top down and had a sprue, a round projection, on the bottom from the casting method. Those cast after the mid-eighteenth century usually had a gate, a narrow line projection, on the bottom. In the middle of the eighteenth century, the cooks of colonial America were using cast iron vessels from England and some that were cast here in th colonies. These vessels were generally used on the open hearths of homes or on the fires of open sheds or structures near the house. An improvement on the open pot was a close fitting lid. A further advance was putting live coals on the lid to provide a concentration of heat at the top of the pot.Another refinement was the crimped or rimmed lid to retain the coals that were place upon it. As the practical use and design of the Dutch oven advanced, the shape changed. Ovens became shallower, thereby allowing the cook top more easily place pand od food therein. Ovens also became wider. accommodating larger pans. (see photo below) (sorry about the quality, I couldn't make it better) http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/1800pot.JPG This Dutch oven, cast about 1800, is fourteen inches in diameter and three inches deep. It has sloping "ears" and stubby legs. From the mid-eighteenth century, dutch ovens have been widely used. These ovens were used on open hearths and carried by settlers on pack animals or wagons on through the nineteenth century, and they continue to be used both on the hearth and outdoors today. The Dutch oven was called a "bake kettle" or "camp Dutch oven"; this probably to distinguish it from the kitchen oven which has no legs and no rimmed lid. Comparing our present Dutch ovens with the early models, both have the same three legs for support over coals, both have a rim around the lid to accommodate coals, both ha e a bail for lifting, both have vertical walls which are slightly larger at the top, and both have a lid that fits firmly over the top and has a handle. Both also have flat bottoms and slightly domed lids. However, Dutch ovens made in the twentieth century are made by automatic casting systems, and show better quality. Most ovens now have a bail of steel wire that is permanently attached. The origin of the name Dutch oven is uncertain. Some people thought that early Dutch traders were responsible. Some thought the Dutch settlers repeated use of the name were responsible. Another photo of a circa 1850 oven. The oven is ten inches in diameter and 2.5" deep. http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/1850pot.jpg I would have to admit this is more than I really wanted to know about the subject. I sincerely hope that someone finds this information useful. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:19:53 PST From: "jerry strobel" <kes49@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles Hallo the list. Seeking custom rifle makers who can build a fairly accurate rifle of the 1810-1835 period along the lines of J. Henrys, Derringer, or large cal. (i.e. .54 or .58) heavy stocked southern style long rifle? Hoe about Tennessee Mountain Rifles? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:47:47 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles Jerry, Here's some links that should head you in the right direction: <A HREF="http://www.jpgunstocks.com/">JP Gunstocks, </A> <A HREF="http://www.avsia.com/tvm/">TVM</A> <A HREF="http://www.moad.com/jbrown/index.html">JBrown - GunMaker </A> <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-parts.htm">Shooter's Resources</A> Barney Fife - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 02:42:19 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Common misconception Ho the list, I for one, have quite enjoyed the cast iron, dutch oven, thread and will ponder the information ... What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources, about some of the common misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in the pre-1840 time period...i.e. "granite ware", handle's on tin cups, Levi's, etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to a rendezvous... Ymos Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:05:02 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? Hello in the camp What ya got cooking in your Dutch Oven by the fire there. This child is about starved for some bread. Cause ya see bread is mighty scarce here in the mountains. Why I have read of fellers going years without even a taste of bread. It has really been interesting and I have learned a lot. Thanks north woods, Long Walker and Walt for your input and efforts we have all gain by it. I haven't put my two cents in cause I wanted to sit back and see what came out of this. Some mighty fine research I'd say. You've found cast iron pots in the forts out west which I had always thought, but now I know. Miller with his paintings put a caldron in the camp of Stewart along with all the other goodies he brought out west with him in his wagons. And Lewis and Clark had them, along with a metal boat frame, air rifle, Leusfers (matches) why they even took a folding writing desk all the way to the to the Pacific. But all this still does not put it in the hands of the average trapper. At some time common sense has to come in to research. What does a Dutch Oven have over a tin or copper pot? You can bake in it, what is a trapper going to bake a cake. Flour was not that available and meat was ether boiled or roasted so why cast iron. When I pack the lighter the better. see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 07:12:04 -0700 From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? I too, loved the emails (to a certain point) and discussion on dutch ovens and the connnecting threads. But you can start a whole new discussion (arguement) when you say flour wasn't availible on the frontier. For it seems the same places which had cast iron, forts and companies of men in the west, also had flour. Chardons journals, just to note one, notes every time he openned a barrel of flour. It seems to me, that yes, flour didn't make it as a regular travel item (just too hard to keep), it was found in the forts. Not a every day item, but bread was served on special occasions and alot tortillas (in the southwest) were ate and made. There will always be differences with what people carried and used on a everyday basis. But the more I laearn, the more I say, we know so little. Jacob Fowler carried a slab of bacon for almost six months in his packs and brought it out for a treat, one day. You have already discussed the L & C metal frame (which I think of as a canoe), but no one has mentioned swords, quilts (all found in the western frontier) and a thousand other things which if we were to mention, everyone would say, "that is just the exception". I afraid that it really takes study and a good mind to find out what the real west was like. mike. GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Hello in the camp > What ya got cooking in your Dutch Oven by the fire there. This child is about > starved for some bread. Cause ya see bread is mighty scarce here in the > mountains. Why I have read of fellers going years without even a taste of > bread. > It has really been interesting and I have learned a lot. Thanks north > woods, Long Walker and Walt for your input and efforts we have all gain by > it. I haven't put my two cents in cause I wanted to sit back and see what > came out of this. Some mighty fine research I'd say. You've found cast iron > pots in the forts out west which I had always thought, but now I know. Miller > with his paintings put a caldron in the camp of Stewart along with all the > other goodies he brought out west with him in his wagons. And Lewis and Clark > had them, along with a metal boat frame, air rifle, Leusfers (matches) why > they even took a folding writing desk all the way to the to the Pacific. But > all this still does not put it in the hands of the average trapper. At some > time common sense has to come in to research. What does a Dutch Oven have > over a tin or copper pot? You can bake in it, what is a trapper going to bake > a cake. Flour was not that available and meat was ether boiled or roasted so > why cast iron. When I pack the lighter the better. > > see ya on the trail > Crazy Cyot > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:50:43 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? "I'm afraid it really takes study and a good mind to find out what the real west was like." Mike Moore Truer words can't be found, Mike. Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:54:32 -0500 From: "Crooked Hand" <chand@isgroup.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles Well Jerry.. you struk a chord here.. I know little about Henry's or Derringer.. but I do know htat you can find excellent work at NArragansette Armes in Indianapolis and they have a beautiful Southern Rifle.. several periods of course.. and they once made a Huddleston Mountain Rifle (I own one) that is just a "Baaaabe". Give Phil Edwards a call and tell him I sent you.. he LOVES to talk and he is good friend.. He can be reached at narrames@aol.com or (317)917-0847 Hope this helps.. CrookedHand Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke` http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm - ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry strobel" <kes49@hotmail.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 11:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles > Hallo the list. Seeking custom rifle makers who can build a fairly accurate > rifle of the 1810-1835 period along the lines of J. Henrys, Derringer, or > large cal. (i.e. .54 or .58) heavy stocked southern style long rifle? Hoe > about Tennessee Mountain Rifles? > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:57:17 -0500 From: "Crooked Hand" <chand@isgroup.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception me tooo! although.. my grandmama had a cast iron pot her people said was in their family in 1760.. and she still used it in 1955... so I think..maybe LOTS of old things carried over into newer dates.. dontcha think? CrookedHand - ----- Original Message ----- From: <SWcushing@aol.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 2:42 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Common misconception > Ho the list, > I for one, have quite enjoyed the cast iron, dutch oven, thread and will > ponder the information ... > What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources, > about some of the common misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in the > pre-1840 time period...i.e. "granite ware", handle's on tin cups, Levi's, > etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to a rendezvous... > Ymos > Steve > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:57:43 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: February 29, 2000 12:58 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? > Right now, I've waded through almost fifty. Found out all kinds of neat >stuff that will further document my outfit. BUT I AIN'T FOUND NO FLAT >BOTTOMED, THREE-LEGGED, CAST IRON DUTCH OVEN!!!! Ahem, sorry about >that... Apparently your not looking in the rite places. A good start would be the book I quoted from. It gives a dozen or so first hand references to the use of Dutch ovens beggining with the Lewis and Clark journey. It also tells where a person can go to today and see how these cooking implements were used in the settings they had existed in the past, one of which is Bents Old Fort National Historic Site La Junta, CO. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:37:35 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Common misconception Well, then, you might like to do some research on blue willow ware china in the fur trade. A good place to start would be HBCs Northwest activities. - -----Original Message----- From: SWcushing@aol.com <SWcushing@aol.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 11:45 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Common misconception >Ho the list, >I for one, have quite enjoyed the cast iron, dutch oven, thread and will >ponder the information ... >What I'd like to see is a list, or several lists, from different sources, >about some of the common misconceptions of what was worn, used, etc., in the >pre-1840 time period...i.e. "granite ware", handle's on tin cups, Levi's, >etc. In other words, what "NOT" to bring to a rendezvous... >Ymos >Steve > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:40:05 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? Well then there now. Just what was the often mentioned "Bannack" made of? - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:12 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? >I too, loved the emails (to a certain point) and discussion on dutch ovens and >the connnecting threads. But you can start a whole new discussion (arguement) >when you say flour wasn't availible on the frontier. For it seems the same places >which had cast iron, forts and companies of men in the west, also had flour. >Chardons journals, just to note one, notes every time he openned a barrel of >flour. It seems to me, that yes, flour didn't make it as a regular travel item >(just too hard to keep), it was found in the forts. Not a every day item, but >bread was served on special occasions and alot tortillas (in the southwest) were >ate and made. There will always be differences with what people carried and used >on a everyday basis. But the more I laearn, the more I say, we know so little. >Jacob Fowler carried a slab of bacon for almost six months in his packs and >brought it out for a treat, one day. You have already discussed the L & C metal >frame (which I think of as a canoe), but no one has mentioned swords, quilts (all >found in the western frontier) and a thousand other things which if we were to >mention, everyone would say, "that is just the exception". I afraid that it >really takes study and a good mind to find out what the real west was like. > mike. > >GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > >> Hello in the camp >> What ya got cooking in your Dutch Oven by the fire there. This child is about >> starved for some bread. Cause ya see bread is mighty scarce here in the >> mountains. Why I have read of fellers going years without even a taste of >> bread. >> It has really been interesting and I have learned a lot. Thanks north >> woods, Long Walker and Walt for your input and efforts we have all gain by >> it. I haven't put my two cents in cause I wanted to sit back and see what >> came out of this. Some mighty fine research I'd say. You've found cast iron >> pots in the forts out west which I had always thought, but now I know. Miller >> with his paintings put a caldron in the camp of Stewart along with all the >> other goodies he brought out west with him in his wagons. And Lewis and Clark >> had them, along with a metal boat frame, air rifle, Leusfers (matches) why >> they even took a folding writing desk all the way to the to the Pacific. But >> all this still does not put it in the hands of the average trapper. At some >> time common sense has to come in to research. What does a Dutch Oven have >> over a tin or copper pot? You can bake in it, what is a trapper going to bake >> a cake. Flour was not that available and meat was ether boiled or roasted so >> why cast iron. When I pack the lighter the better. >> >> see ya on the trail >> Crazy Cyot >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #482 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.