ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n481

Internet Message Format | 2000-02-28 | 41KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #481
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest      Tuesday, February 29 2000      Volume 01 : Number 481



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care
-áááááá MtMan-List: Info on William T. Hamilton?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort
-áááááá MtMan-List: cast iron at Ft Union
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Up to Colter's Hell
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort
-áááááá MtMan-List: OT - GUN CONTROL AND THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:55:19 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8236.811EFDC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Roger,
  Thanks for the response.  I'm always trying to figure out the details =
of how they maintained their guns in the wilderness.  I've never tried =
buffalo hair and don't know anyone who has.  For a fact, they didn't =
clean their guns as often as we do because they were always loaded and =
ready for use.  It just stuck me as odd that there was probably very =
little tow in the mountains, and yet we know that they carried tow =
worms.  The best subsitute I could come up with was buffalo hair.  It =
was cartainly readily available.  Although as you said, scraps of cloth =
or anything that could be balled up on a tow worm would work. =20
Pendleton=20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 7:24 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care
   =20
   =20
    Larry,
   =20
    I won't claim any particular expertise in this matter other than =
fair reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning practices we find that =
those same practices in the "mountains" would have resulted in our =
running out of cleaning materials very quickly. Any shooting at all and =
we would have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to nothing.
   =20
    In my limited experimentation with alternate methods of gun care I =
find as others have, that a minimal amount of cleaning is actually =
required. Water being the most important ingredient and one that would =
have been relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean out muzzle =
loader barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems to be enough =
to break the bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be present. =
One additional ball of tow suffices to wipe out most of the moisture and =
will even apply a new layer of animal grease if I do not care to expend =
a third ball of tow devoted just to grease.
   =20
    Compare that to modern practices of using multiple patches, etc. =
with all the attendant chemical concoctions that "Must Be Used". (of =
course many of us don't use such things). Very wasteful.
   =20
    Now if you only clean your gun (in the mountains) when it really =
needs it (after some serious shooting) and you don't use half a bag of =
patches to do it what you do use to clean will last quit a while. If you =
use patches or tow and wash the cleaning materials out after use to be =
used again, your cleaning materials will last even longer.
   =20
    Now consider that there are many alternatives to using flannel =
patches from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is the first one we think of, =
Buffalo hair should work OK, certain tree moss's should work (this is =
someone to try this summer) along with making great tinder,  practically =
any fiber that will hold together when wrapped around a tow worm or =
folded over a jag of either metal or cut from the wood of the cleaning =
rod. Probably some of the grasses, as long as they are not too =
weathered. Wool blanketing would work as would a small patch of cloth. =
Remember that they can be cleaned out with a quick squeeze in water and =
tied to your shoulder strap to dry.
   =20
    Anyway, those are some of my guesses. I remain....
   =20
    YMOS
    Capt. Lahti'
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: larry pendleton=20
        To: [e-mail]=20
        Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:09 PM
        Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care
       =20
       =20
        I have a question to add to Steve's.  We know they carried tow =
worms, and there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as =
I recall.  What did they use in the place of tow when it ran out.  Could =
they have used Buffalo Hair ?
        Pendleton
            -----Original Message-----
            From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
            To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
            Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM
            Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care
           =20
           =20
            I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now  I =
was taught to=20
            clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot =
water.  Following=20
            this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real =
good (down the=20
            barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under =
sights  barrel rib=20
            etc with WD40.  It has kept my gun in great shape and I have =
never had=20
            problems with rust.  As I get more involved in "the =
historical " aspect of=20
            muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and =
attending Rendezvous I=20
            wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free =
from rust &=20
            corrosion,  I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of =
times(picked up a=20
            sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in =
Utah)  Can anyone=20
            guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?  What did they =
use while out in=20
            the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they =
missed the annual=20
            rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement =
to pick up=20
            supplies for the next trapping seasons?
           =20
            Steve
           =20
            ----------------------
            hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8236.811EFDC0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Roger,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  Thanks =
for the=20
response.  I'm always trying to figure out the details of how they=20
maintained their guns in the wilderness.  I've never tried buffalo =
hair and=20
don't know anyone who has.  For a fact, they didn't clean their =
guns as=20
often as we do because they were always loaded and ready for use.  =
It just=20
stuck me as odd that there was probably very little tow in the =
mountains, and=20
yet we know that they carried tow worms.  The best subsitute I =
could come=20
up with was buffalo hair.  It was cartainly readily =
available. =20
Although as you said, scraps of cloth or anything that could be balled =
up on a=20
tow worm would work.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pendleton </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Monday, February 28, 2000 7:24 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List: Gun=20
    Care<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Larry,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I won't claim any particular =
expertise in this=20
    matter other than fair reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning =
practices=20
    we find that those same practices in the "mountains" would =
have=20
    resulted in our running out of cleaning materials very quickly. Any =
shooting=20
    at all and we would have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to=20
    nothing.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my limited experimentation with =
alternate=20
    methods of gun care I find as others have, that a minimal amount of =
cleaning=20
    is actually required. Water being the most important ingredient and =
one that=20
    would have been relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean =
out=20
    muzzle loader barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems =
to be=20
    enough to break the bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be =

    present. One additional ball of tow suffices to wipe out most of the =

    moisture and will even apply a new layer of animal grease if I do =
not care=20
    to expend a third ball of tow devoted just to grease.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Compare that to modern practices of =
using=20
    multiple patches, etc. with all the attendant chemical concoctions =
that=20
    "Must Be Used". (of course many of us don't use such =
things). Very=20
    wasteful.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now if you only clean your gun (in =
the=20
    mountains) when it really needs it (after some serious shooting) and =
you=20
    don't use half a bag of patches to do it what you do use to clean =
will last=20
    quit a while. If you use patches or tow and wash the cleaning =
materials out=20
    after use to be used again, your cleaning materials will last even=20
    longer.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now consider that there are many =
alternatives=20
    to using flannel patches from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is =
the=20
    first one we think of, Buffalo hair should work OK, certain tree =
moss's=20
    should work (this is someone to try this summer) along with making =
great=20
    tinder,  practically any fiber that will hold together when =
wrapped=20
    around a tow worm or folded over a jag of either metal or cut from =
the wood=20
    of the cleaning rod. Probably some of the grasses, as long as they =
are not=20
    too weathered. Wool blanketing would work as would a small patch of =
cloth.=20
    Remember that they can be cleaned out with a quick squeeze in water =
and tied=20
    to your shoulder strap to dry.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyway, those are some of my =
guesses. I=20
    remain....</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>larry=20
        pendleton</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
        =
title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A>=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February =
28, 2000=20
        8:09 PM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Gun=20
        Care</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have a question to add to=20
        Steve's.  We know they carried tow worms, and there was a =
limited=20
        amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I recall.  What =
did they=20
        use in the place of tow when it ran out.  Could they have =
used=20
        Buffalo Hair ?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
            <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
            Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B><A=20
            href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To:=20
            </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
            </B>Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>MtMan-List:=20
            Gun Care<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>I have been shooting =
muzzleloader for=20
            about 4 years now  I was taught to <BR>clean my gun =
with hot=20
            soapy water and rinse it with hot water.  Following =
<BR>this=20
            "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it =
real good=20
            (down the <BR>barrel and in all those little nooks and =
crannies=20
            under sights  barrel rib <BR>etc with WD40.  It =
has kept=20
            my gun in great shape and I have never had <BR>problems with =

            rust.  As I get more involved in "the historical =
"=20
            aspect of <BR>muzzle loading and especially historical =
trekking and=20
            attending Rendezvous I <BR>wonder how the early trappers =
kept their=20
            guns clean and free from rust & <BR>corrosion,  I =
know=20
            about "tow" and have used it a couple of =
times(picked up a=20
            <BR>sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man =
in=20
            Utah)  Can anyone <BR>guide me toward accurate =
"gun=20
            care" items?  What did they use while out in =
<BR>the=20
            "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if =
they=20
            missed the annual <BR>rendezvous or were unable to get to =
any sort=20
            of settlement to pick up <BR>supplies for the next trapping=20
            =
seasons?<BR><BR>Steve<BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
            list info: <A=20
            =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOC=
KQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8236.811EFDC0--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:16:28 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care

Larry. Steve, etal.

For those interested there are some extensive discussions which have=
 occurred
over past years on this very subject.  I won't repeat at this time but,=
 there
are some very practical, period and authentic gun cleaning and greasing=
 ideas
therein.

I have carried and used an old worm for well over 20 years, I can't remember
using it with tow more than once or twice just to see how tow worked, it was
too expensive and buying something when there was stuff to use I'd otherwise
throw away seemed wasteful.  I've used various scraps of cloth, buckskin,=
 wads
of string, odd scraps of fur and whatever else was at hand with the least
value
to me at the time.  If you read the archives and figure out what I suggest=
 for
gun cleaning, you'll probably not be wanting to save your cleaning rags.

Never had any buffalo hair I didn't figure was better used to keep me warm.

John...



At 08:09 PM 2/28/00 -0800, you wrote:=20
>
> I have a question to add to Steve's.=A0 We know they carried tow worms,=
 and
> there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I recall.=A0=
 What
> did they use in the place of tow when it ran out.=A0 Could they have used
> Buffalo Hair ?
> Pendleton
>>
>> -----Original Message-----=20
>> From: <mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]
>> <<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]>=20
>> To: <mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]
>> <<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]>=20
>> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM=20
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care
>>
>> I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now=A0 I was taught=
 to=20
>> clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water.=A0=
 Following=20
>> this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down the=
=20
>> barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights=A0 barrel=
 rib=20
>> etc with WD40.=A0 It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never had=
=20
>> problems with rust.=A0 As I get more involved in "the historical " aspect=
 of=20
>> muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending
Rendezvous I
>> wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from rust &=
=20
>> corrosion,=A0 I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of=
 times(picked up
>> a=20
>> sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah)=A0 Can
anyone=20
>> guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?=A0 What did they use while out=
 in=20
>> the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed the
>> annual=20
>> rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick up=20
>> supplies for the next trapping seasons?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> ----------------------=20
>> hist_text list info:
>> <http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.c
>> om/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:56:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Info on William T. Hamilton?

What can anyone tell me about William T. Hamilton (1822-1908) who accompanied
Old Bill Williams to the Wind River country in 1842?  Specifically, how
accurate are his memoirs titled My Sixty Years on the Plains (NY, 1905)?  I
also have the Keim article from Hafen & Carter's MM vol. IX.  From 1859 on
Hamilton lived in Montana, and his manuscripts, etc. are in the Historical
Society at Park City.

Has anybody (perhaps you guys from MT) done any primary research on Hamilton
or anybody else that was on that 1842-45 expedition?

John R Sweet

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:36:20 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens?

Washtahay-
    I wrote a bunch of stuff the other day about a procedure I use for
research.  Today, I skipped a class, took the afternoon off, and did some
digging.
    I first checked a database of probate records from 1801-1820.  In the 1200
or so records (mostly form Missouri) there was no mention of "dutch ovens",
"bake kettles", etc.
    Journal searches turned up a possible 227 papers to check.  After reading
abstracts, I got this narrowed down to 13 papers, of which I was able to
locate 12.  I also found a copy of the business records of a late 18th
century foundry.  Will post if I find anything worth mentioning.
    I began reviewing archaeological reports using the following criteria:
west of St. Louis, south of the Canadian border/north of the Rio Grande,
site with an occupation date beginning after 1700 and ending prior to 1840.
 It turned out there were more than 100...
    Right now, I've waded through almost fifty.  Found out all kinds of neat
stuff that will further document my outfit.   BUT I AIN'T FOUND NO FLAT
BOTTOMED, THREE-LEGGED, CAST IRON DUTCH OVEN!!!!  Ahem, sorry about that...
    What I did find that pertains to this discussion, from Ft. Atkinson
("Archaeological Investigation at Fort Atkinson", Gayle Carlson, NE State
Historical Society, 1979); a dome-shaped cast-iron kettle lid fragment that
would have been about 12" in diameter to begin with.  Not enough of the lid
to determine what kind of handle it had.
    Its not proof of the presence of dutch ovens, but it certainly keeps the
possibility open.  That it took that many records to find any real
indication in the pre-1840 period says something.  I'm just not sure what.
If its any indication of the numbers in the west, there were pieces of more
than 90 tin, copper, and brass kettles to this one fragment-including two
tin lids and one brass lid.
LongWalker c. du B.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:45:03 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort

Washtahay-
    All comments herein refer to the book "Bent's Old Fort An Archaeological
Study" by Jackson W. Moore, JR.  Printed 1973 by State Historical Society
of Colorado and Pruett Publishing Company.  ISBN 0-87108-055-9.
    Given earlier discussion of the material recovered at Bent's, I went and
got the book today as part of a preliminary search into the possible
presence of what we now know as "dutch ovens" in the west, specifically in
the fur trade prior to 1840.  Let me say right off, I like the book-but I
would feel more comfortable with the conclusions I have reached if the
information was presented in a more traditional archaeological report format.
    First off, prior to evaluating the data contained in the book, we need to
consider the history of the occupation of the fort.  Most of this is
condensed from the book, any comments made by me will be in () and initialed.
    The fort was headquarters for Bent, St. Verain & Co. from 1833-1849.  At
the conclusion of this period, William Bent left, burning excess powder and
abandoning the fort.  (It is not clear what material was left behind and
still remains, what was taken after Bent left, and what was left behind as
being not worth hauling off.  Burning a bunch of powder can tend to make it
unclear if something was damaged prior to the fire.  jc)
    The structure was unoccupied from 1849-1861.  (I have seen several
references from this period to people overnighting-or staying for a few
days-at the remains of the fort.  jc)
    From 1861-1881, the fort served as a home station and repair shop for
Barlow-Sanderson Overland Mail and Express Company.
    From 1881-1884, parts of the fort were carried away, the ruins
occasionally served as a line shack for cattlemen in the area.
    1884-1920 the fort was abandoned and allowed to deteriorate.  Occupation
during this period was acknowledged by the author "itinerant cowboys and
travelers stopped for part of the day or overnight at the ruins of the
staiton long after its demise." (p.20) Preservation attempts began in 1920.
    OK, we now have a starting point.
    First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One large
iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles was
recovered from Bent's well."  The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't a
clear reference-which well?  By association with another artifact-a pump-it
was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2.  The
placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well wasn't
clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if the
pot dates from the Bent period or later.
    Also on page 108 "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with
upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals."  None of these are
illustrated, they aren't mentioned in the descriptions of the rooms.
Without this information, there is really nothing we can do.  (There is an
illustration-figure 17-that appears to show pot lids in situ.  From the
context and description of the room shown, these are iron wagon parts.)
    On page 30, Moore describes the floor of room E3 in this way "There were
semi-melted pots and pans,..."  Don't know about you all, but I have never
seen cast iron melt in a wood fire, even aided by accelerants-in fact I
have heated my oven in a wood fire until it glows a bit just to clean off
years of crap.  I have, however, melted a copper teapot or two on a wood
fire, as well as a brass kettle.  This experience leads me to want more
information to believe these pots and pans are cast iron.
    An iron pan was found in room W3, but Moore says it should be considered
intrusive from what he calls the "Cattle Period" (1881-1884).

Conclusions:
    Much as I wish it were otherwise, at this point I am not prepared to say
that this book provides proof that "dutch ovens" were used in the fur
trade.  I have begun a search for a copy of the actual artifact inventory
from the excavation.

    On the bright side, see my other post for what I DID find.
LongWalker c. du B.



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:21:02 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: cast iron at Ft Union

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BF826C.634E06C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian.

 1. base fragment
 2. rim fragment wedge shape
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters. =20
 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center

These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post. =20
Walt
Park City, Montana

- ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BF826C.634E06C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt =
foster and Randy=20
Kane/Historian.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> 1. base fragment<BR> 2. rim =
fragment=20
wedge shape<BR> 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.  =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> 4. lid fragment with the handle =
in the=20
center<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>These cast iron artifacts were dug up =
at the Fort=20
Union Trading Post.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Park City, =
Montana</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BF826C.634E06C0--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:22:46 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: February 29, 2000 12:59 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort



> First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One large
>iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles was
>recovered from Bent's well."  The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't a
>clear reference-which well?  By association with another artifact-a pump-it
>was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2.

It is clear which well was meant. "Bent's Well" means the well that was
attributed to the Bent period. The other well was attributed to the
stagecoach period. Your correct in that the wooden pump also came from Bents
well.

 >The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well
wasn't
>clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if the
>pot dates from the Bent period or later.

I would argue that conclusion. In fact, I don't see how you can say that. My
report states (the original report):
"The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of the
shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by
being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at the
top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on up
is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period
origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period."
When he states that "The fill from here on up" he means that beggining from
the "top" of the burned and partially collapsed well structure, the well
room was "capped" by stagecoach period material.
The reason he pointed that out is to support his next statement indicating
that he believed the well room was unquestionably of the Bent period, and
there was a clear stratigraphy shown. All of the material excavated from
the"well" in room w2 were of Bent period.




> Also on page 108 "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with
>upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals."  None of these are
>illustrated, they aren't mentioned in the descriptions of the rooms.
>Without this information, thething we can do.

The report I have shows a good picture of a lid that came out of the room
SE2. Dr. Dick felt this room was Bents personal room. He also attributed
this to the Bent period. It is cast iron with an upturned rim "deep enough
to hold glowing coals" as is stated in the report.

 (>Conclusions:
> Much as I wish it were otherwise, at this point I am not prepared to say
>that this book provides proof that "dutch ovens" were used in the fur
>trade.  I have begun a search for a copy of the actual artifact inventory
>from the excavation.

The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three
legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned.

I will post pictures for everyone else to see and judge for themselves. I
have been waiting on additional information that will show the antiquity of
the "dutch oven" and its development and use in the U.S.

northwoods



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:07:19 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Up to Colter's Hell

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BF828C.001D0F40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello the campfire,
Keyboard in www.billingsgazette.com and take a look at part of the =
birthplace of the American Mountain Man today until midnight.

You can also go to www.nps.gov/yell/stateofthepark.htm for other =
pictures and related stuff
walt
park city, mt

- ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BF828C.001D0F40
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello the campfire,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Keyboard in <A=20
href=3D"http://www.billingsgazette.com">www.billingsgazette.com</A> and =
take a=20
look at part of the birthplace of the American Mountain Man today =
until=20
midnight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You can also go to <A=20
href=3D"http://www.nps.gov/yell/stateofthepark.htm">www.nps.gov/yell/stat=
eofthepark.htm</A>=20
for other pictures and related stuff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>walt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>park city, =
mt</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BF828C.001D0F40--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:42:40 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort

Northwoods....you do good work!

Ymos,
Steve

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:18:24 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort

Washtahay-
At 08:22 AM 2/29/00 -0600, you wrote:
>> First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One large
>>iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles was
>>recovered from Bent's well."  The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't a
>>clear reference-which well?  By association with another artifact-a pump-it
>>was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2.
>
>It is clear which well was meant. "Bent's Well" means the well that was
>attributed to the Bent period. The other well was attributed to the
>stagecoach period. Your correct in that the wooden pump also came from Bents
>well.
    This was the only point in the book where the well was referred to as
"Bent's Well.  In other places there are references to a cistern and a
well-house which also refer to this structure.  So no, it wasn't clear what
was meant.
    As we are using different references, how can you know what is or is not
clear in the reference I am using?  What, exactly, are you using as a
reference?

> >The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well
>wasn't
>>clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if the
>>pot dates from the Bent period or later.
>
>I would argue that conclusion. In fact, I don't see how you can say that. My
>report states (the original report):
>"The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of the
>shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by
>being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at the
>top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on up
>is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period
>origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period."
>When he states that "The fill from here on up" he means that beggining from
>the "top" of the burned and partially collapsed well structure, the well
>room was "capped" by stagecoach period material.
>The reason he pointed that out is to support his next statement indicating
>that he believed the well room was unquestionably of the Bent period, and
>there was a clear stratigraphy shown. All of the material excavated from
>the"well" in room w2 were of Bent period.
    By "placement of the pot in the stratigraphy" I was referring to the fact
that the layer the pot was found in is not mentioned.  Your own quote
above, "The fill from here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which
confirm its stagecoach period origin" refers to the fact that the top
material in the well does NOT date from the period of Bent's occupation.
At no place in the book I have does he say what layer in which the pot was
found, by what material it was surrounded.  Was it found on top?  Was it
found on the bottom?

>The report I have shows a good picture of a lid that came out of the room
>SE2. Dr. Dick felt this room was Bents personal room. He also attributed
>this to the Bent period. It is cast iron with an upturned rim "deep enough
>to hold glowing coals" as is stated in the report.
    In the book I have, on page 32, mention is made that Dr. Dick felt that
the room SE1 was used by Bent as his quarters.

>The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three
>legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned.
    Well, it shows that "cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged cooking
implements" were present when the fort was excavated, but until the
placement of the pot in the well is made clear it would be inaccurate to
say that it report proves the implement was there when the fort burned.  At
best, it opens the possibility.  Without field notes or the actual
archaeological report, this is unclear.

>I will post pictures for everyone else to see and judge for themselves. I
>have been waiting on additional information that will show the antiquity of
>the "dutch oven" and its development and use in the U.S.
    I will look forward to it.
LongWalker c. du B.



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:04:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: OT - GUN CONTROL AND THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS

Forwarded:  If we dont get out and vote this could happen here.(at lest the
gun control part) Both Dem front runners want to eliminate our right to own
guns--- Ray Glazner

Hello Vets: I myself do not believe in taking away the right to bear arms for
the private citizen.  This gives the government total control.  Although I
love this
country and I am not an activist, the idea of it scares me.   If the weapons
are taken away, what will be the next step?  Or what will be the next right
to be taken away? lLiz.   Enough said.  Read on. Thank you SeaBeeSkip for
sending this.

Consider The Alternative

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953,
approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million
Jews, gypsies, Russians, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable  to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000
Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million
"educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at
approximately 56 million in the last century.

Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone
talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish  to
have exterminated.

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #481
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.