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hist_text-digest       Monday, February 28 2000       Volume 01 : Number 480



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: fish line
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
-áááááá MtMan-List: Moth Proofing
-áááááá MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Apology for error
-áááááá MtMan-List: moth proofing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: fish line
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Rendezvous   "Fun-D- Vous"
-áááááá MtMan-List: off topic- gun prayer
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:13:29 -0800
From: "Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)

Gottfried got it!
- ----------
>From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)
>Date: Wed, Feb 27, 1980, 10:55 AM
>

>With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which
>I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is:
>
>How to Document It (NOT!)
>=========================
>
>=>Documentation by generalization from single example:
>Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was
>used by everyone throughout the period.
>
>=>Documentation by intimidation:
>"Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words
>can also be effective.
>
>=>Documentation by vigorous handwaving:
>Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom.
>
>=>Documentation by cryptic footnotes:
>(Smith, 1960, p. 19)
>
>=>Documentation by omission:
>"..."
>
>=>Documentation by obfuscation:
>A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to
>the point under discussion.
>
>=>Documentation by fiction:
>How could a famous historical novelist be wrong?
>
>=>Documentation by eminent authority:
>"I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used."
>
>=>Documentation by personal communication:
>Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication)
>
>=>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence:
>"Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were
>doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men."
>
>=>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature:
>The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be
>found in a private archive and/or in a different country.
>
>=>Documentation by convenience:
>Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be
>helpful if everyone agreed it was documented.
>
>=>Documentation by illustration:
>A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting.
>
>=>Documentation by vehement assertion:
>It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If
>not, repetition helps.
>
>=>Documentation by ghost reference:
>Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be
>found in the reference given.
>
>=>Documentation by forward reference:
>Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is
>often not as forthcoming as at first.
>
>=>Documentation by semantic shift:
>Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement
>of the result.
>
>=>Documentation by appeal to intuition:
>Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here.
>
>Your very humble and most obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:36:19 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line

Hi Larry,
I use linen from my sewing kit.  This linen comes from the shoemaker.  It is
the right size to go into hooks about the size of a #8 and tied to the hook
directly without any other leader material.  As a boy I took small turtles
and big carp with this outfit and when I started fishing the mountains it
was a workable outfit for the small 8",9" trout up to 2 or 3 pounds.  I
carry my hooks in the threads of a small piece of canvan and that tucked
into a small bag that also contains my sewing kit.  For the first time since
the time of the mountain men the state is going to plant cutthroat trout
again, this was the trout in the waters at the time of the AMM.  Since we
camp each year on part of the site of the orginal rocky mountain college
from July 19-24 and sometime in the winters when we get snow.  I am going to
set a goal of catching one in honor of the AMM in camp here from October of
1836 to end of February 1837.  For many it was the last camp in this area.
Try linen it works on small to somewhat bigger stuff without a problem at
all.
Walt
Park City, Montana


For the definitive answer to this you should talk to Paul "Cutleg" Jones
down here in Texas.  Linen lines were also used, if my memory serves from
the rocky mountain colleges he has presented.YMOS Lanney

> I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots of
> accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what did
> they use for fish line.
> Thank You Larry



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 02:25:09 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print

John Funk,

Pretty definitively once the technological capabilities of the crafts and
trades working during the period in question are compared to how such could=
 be
done and then applying cost effectiveness measures to what is most probable.=
=20
Then examine the tangible historic record and see how things were done.

There is only two techniques by which the shape pot in question could have
been
created with materials, tools and technology available during the period, in
addition to casting.  Both are impractical and though possible would
require so
much of a highly skilled craftsman's time as to be prohibitively expensive
even
for a fop like Stewart. =20

Each craft worked it's material to its best advantage.  We have a fairly
complete tangible record and some things exist and some things don't.  The
styles of work developed over centuries and were created with secrets handed
from Master to Apprentice, each may have polished and discovered a secret or
two, but it is pretty well known generally what was being done when=
 especially
in the finer grades of work more of which has been preserved than that
common.=20
Some things are a little tough to sort out just when, as peddlers have been
overselling their wares for centuries and even the Romans were forging
antiques, it is ancient enterprise which sometimes confounds us.

I am weary of this thread and lack the energy to teach you all you would=
 need
to know to even begin to understand, if comprehension is not presently
apparent
to you.

John...

At 08:11 AM 2/27/00 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"?=A0 Is=
 it
>totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass,
>copper....?=A0 I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and
>ascribing a material to their fabrication!!
>
>John Funk
>
>

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 06:15:25 -0600
From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing

Your best bet for mothproofing (besides those nasty mothballs) is to keep
your wool cleaned and aired.

Wool may be washed - do NOT shock it or agitate it.  It needs to be soaked
in sudsy warm - hot water (pre-drawn), then taken out of the water while
rinse water, about the same temperature of the wash water you took it from,
is loaded in your tub.

You may spin (ONLY) the blanket in your washing machine.  Watch that it
doesn't "spin and rinse" because that is agitation and may shrink the
blanket.  Some washing machines do not allow you to just spin, so be
careful.  Spinning does not agitate as it throws the blanket against the tub
and holds it there pretty steadily while the water is sucked out of it.  If
you are nervous about this (as you probably should be) lay the blanket flat
on an old screen covered with an old sheet outside on a dry day.  Hanging it
over the line will do the same thing, but then you will have a "line" line
in your blanket.

You may find dry cleaning easier, but it is really not necessary or "better"
for the wool.

Shaking and airing often will keep the little critters from getting a
foothold, but before storing for the winter, a washing would be good.  For
winter storage, store *dry* in plastic tub or bag with newspaper surrounding
and between the layers  -- mothballs -yuck  :-, .   If I follow this, I
never have problems with wool moths -- and I have A LOT of wool.  :-)

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]


.


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 06:57:54 -0600
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318]

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There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Snowshoes
           From: [e-mail]
      2. "Dutch Ovens"
           From: [e-mail]
      3. Re: Reference List
           From: [e-mail]


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:24:38 EST
   From: [e-mail]
Subject: Snowshoes

List,

Some snowshoe images that might be of interest:

in  Claude Chauchetiere S.J., Narrative of the Mission of Sault St. Louis,
1667-1685, (Kanienkehaka Raotitiohkwa Press, Kahnawake), 1981.  This is a
reprint of the original Jesuit Relation, Thwaites edition, Vol. 63. 10
drawings, also by Chauchetiere, accompany the introduction.  Drawing on p.11
shows two women and a man, all on snowshoes, wearing matchcoats  Two are
wearing Ojibwa-style shoes, one a Michigan style, and carrying another pair
of the same.

in Sylvia Van Kirk, Many Tender Ties: Women in Fur-Trade Society, 1670-1870
(University of Oklahoma Press, Norman and London), 1983.

frontispiece.  Paul Kane painting.  "John Rowland and his bride Margaret
Harriot leave Fort Edmonton on their wedding trip, January 1848."
Ojibwa-style shoes on man.

p. 55.  Photograph.  "An Indian woman threading showshoes in a settlement
along the Mackenzie River. c. 1920."  Obibwa-style shoes.

p. 74.  Watercolor drawing by William Richards, early nineteenth century.  "A
Man and his Wife returning with a load of Partridges from their Tent."  Both
wearing Michigan-style shoes.

My personal experience was limited until recently to a small pair of bearpaws
(inadequate), when  I received for a gift a pair of Ojibwa shoes, 54" long,
laced with rawhide.  With sharply curved tips, these are excellent for
gliding through 3' and deeper drifts--and a piece of cake on anything less.

Good luck,
Carrie A. Fellows








Message: 2
>   Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:00:56 -0800 (PST)
>   From: john warrant <[e-mail]>
>Subject: snowshoes
>
>It is late in the year, but I was wondering if anybody
>out there knows a thing or two about snowshoes used
>during the seventeen hundreds? What kind of designs
>are good and what materials were used?


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:55:54 EST
   From: [e-mail]
Subject: "Dutch Ovens"

Dear List,

In my experience, bake kettles (as"dutch ovens" are often referred to in the
period) from the 18th and early 19th century differ from modern repros in
that:
- -they're often shallower
- -the lids have a wide handle, not the nub-with-hole handles we often see today
- -the lids have a more dished lip (and the lip is often higher) than today's
versions
- -the bails are wrought iron, not drawn wire
- -overall, they're much thinner and lighter than modern camp versions
A bake kettle has straight sides, and a flat bottom; a common iron pot has a
rounded shape.

The one in the collection at work (Patterson Inn Museum, Corning, NY) is a
"married" piece--the lid is probably 18th century, the bottom probably early
to mid 19th century.  (warning: any source with cast iron will tell you that
dating is an uncertain science.)

There are upteen sources that you can find photos in--alas, my blacksmith
partner has all available sources holed up in his shop right now, so I can't
quote you chapter and verse...or bibliography.  Re: terminology--if you read
any period cookbook, the vessel, when mentioned, is likely to be referred to
as a "bake kettle".  For modern scholastic research on the name, try looking
at Caroline Sloat, Old Sturbridge Village Cookbook (Globe Pequot Press, Old
Saybrook, CT), 1984.

I know there are others lurking who know much more than I...a certain
leatherworker, perhaps...?

Best,
Carrie A. Fellows

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:48:00 -0600
   From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: 'dutch oven'

Hello the camp,

Over on the Histtext list there has been a controversy over the 'Dutch
Oven' and its probable look. We seem to agree that it 'might not' be the
same as today's lidded camp oven, but that is about all.  Does anyone
have reference documentation on the origin of the name, what they
looked  like, and the earliest known or traded dates? What was their
relation to the bulbous or round cauldron/kettle?  This is certainly of
interest to all of us, as there was cast iron cookware available and
traded, from England, France, Holland and elsewhere in Europe, as well
as the first iron furnaces in the Colonies.

Mary, with your vast resources, can you please help?  Fred?? Others on
this knowledgable list?

Most respectfully,
Mike Rock


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:22:23 EST
   From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Reference List

In a message dated 2/25/00 9:13:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> From: "James F O'Neil" <[e-mail]>
>
>  Fred
>
>  I know the list has space for web sites of interest.  Since we seem to
>  have more and more people that are new to the list is their anyway to
>  make a bibliography for people to refer to.  We could include any kind of
>  reference books, collection catalogs, magazine article, or period
>  narratives that may help people start or refine their impressions.  We
>  could also tell to get the book.
>
>  Just a silly idea,
>
>  Jim O'Neil
>

Jim and List,

I have also often thought about things like this.  Especially after answering
some of the same questions to the new folks out there numerous times.  (IM
not downing Yall here).  What I realized was that to really do it well it
would turn into the "Indian Reenactors Bible," something that is needed, but
not something that I would be able to take on at the present time.

Fred


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________





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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:01:36 -0600
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Apology for error

List,
I sincerely apologize for sending the entire text of the Nativelist.
Brain dead.
Humbly,
Mike Rock

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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:11:12 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moth proofing

    The use of aromatic cedar, I think it is called Eastern Cedar like we
have here in Arkansas, is very effective. I use small chunks of it in my
storage boxes.  Also chests made entirely of cedar are very good.
    You can buy a regular "Hope Chest" made of cedar for home storage. You
might get snickers if you bring it to r'vouz though.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 2000 06:15:11 -0800
From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line

On Sun, 27 February 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote:

>
> For the definitive answer to this you should talk to Paul "Cutleg" Jones down here in Texas.  Unfortunately, he is in the process of relocating to Houston and is temporarily off line.  Wait until you see his name pop up on the list again and ask Paul directly.   He knows more than a person should about the subject.  He makes and sells horsehair fishing lines, if that tells you anything.  Linen lines were also used, if my memory serves from the rocky mountain colleges he has presented..
> YMOS
> Lanney

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Lanney,

Don't forget the silk worm leaders, linen leaders, linen lines, horse leaders and lines. You name it and Paul has it or has a resource for it, plus documentation of who, where and when it was available here and in Europe.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 2000 06:36:39 -0800
From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads

On Sun, 27 February 2000, "Norman Anderson" wrote:

> I think the article to which you refer is in either Popular Science or
> Popular Mechanics.  What was found was at the "Lower Portage Camp."  The
> artifacts recoved consisted of a possible wooden tent stake, a large flawed
> gun flint, and a metal push pin such as you would put in a bulletin board
> (or perhaps hold paper down).  There was also three fire rings at regular
> intervals and in a straight line, and, I believe, some disturbed soil that
> indicated a three-legged pot.  The articles found are on display at the
> Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman.  Until recently, KOA had some photos on
> the web of the dig and the artifacts, but the page is now gone.  This camp
> is about 18 miles from where the iron boat was cached.  The same
> archeologist, has moved to the "Upper Portage Camp" but as of last summer
> had still found nothing.  His name is Ken Karsmizki.  So far, any evidence
> of actual Lewis and Clark campsites has been hard to come by--even when the
> specific site is known.  Karsmizki spent several years to find what little
> he could at the Lower Camp.  I don't think the Corps of Discovery wasted
> much.
>
> Norman Anderson
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Norman,

Your right - Popular Science was the magazine, and they (L&C) didn't leave much at any of their camps.

A small group of us have been at several of the know camps, and have found member's of the "Corps of Discovery" names scratched on the walls of a cave in MO (Travern Cave), I found a Rev War style button at one site, another friend found what was left of a tent pin at another site and that's about it for us in 25 years of following the "Corps of Discovery" from PA to MT.

These sites are so remote that most don't want to take the time or make the effort to get to them. Tavern Cave in Clark's journal was only a few hundred yards from the Missouri River then, it's now about 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 miles now with river changes, swampy, bugs everywhere, lots of undergrowth, etc. - probably why the names have stayed intact from our generation.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:52:53 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print

Undoubtedly. But check the description in any good reference work on the
French army in America. They carried a small cast iron pot of that shape on
their belts in the rear. I don't have the foggiest notion of whether those
pots became common, but based on his experience, Charlie said pots of the
shape of the one in Miller's painting would have been cast iron. Maybe it
was, maybe it wasn't. If it was, it is doubtful, based on my own packing
experience, that it was packed on a horse, but was carried in a wagon of
some type. For myself, I have gone out with a single riding horse for 31
days aux aliments de pays. That got my equipment down to what I typically
use, a sheet iron rat tailed frying pan, a small metal bucket, two canteens,
and some rice, tea, and salt. That's it.
- -----Original Message-----
From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print


>Bill,
>With all due respect to you and Mr. Hanson (who I have held in high regard)
>I 'd hate to run with "had to be" as proof of authenticity.  I'd bet my
next
>Beaver that a good tinsmith could hammer out that identical shape from
sheet
>iron or the like.
>John Funk
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bill Cunningham <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:11 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
>
>
>> I can't. But Charles Hansen told me that the Miller painting in question
>> here several times, because of its shape and the legs, had to be cast
>iron.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
>>
>>
>> >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"?  Is
>it
>> >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass,
>> >copper....?  I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and
>> >ascribing a material to their fabrication!!
>> >
>> >John Funk
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: <[e-mail]>
>> >To: <[e-mail]>
>> >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
>> >
>> >
>> >> Ho the list,
>> >> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book
>"Life
>> >in
>> >> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in
your
>> >> browser and it should come up.
>> >>
>> >>            http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg
>> >>
>> >> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the
>fore
>> >> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could
put
>> >coals
>> >> over the top...
>> >>
>> >> Ymos,
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------
>> >> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:04:09 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318]

Take my name off your spam list!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:57 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318]


>


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:01:20 -0800 (PST)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous   "Fun-D- Vous"

 Hello the camp !!!
 Thought I would pass this around, in case anyone
might be interested.

 Beaver Creek Free-Trappers Rendezvous
 March 24, 25 & 26th (pre-1840 dress requested)
 Sterling, Ok.
 Contacts  Sam Ewing 580-365-4440 (early setup)
           Thurman Brake 405-247-5281
           Tim Sanders 580-252-5537
  (this is the group I belong to)


 3rd Annual Wilderness Spring Rendezvous
 March 29- April 2, 2000 (early set up March 24th)
5 1/2 miles west of Tecumseh, OK. on Highway 9.
Contact: Eugene (3 Fingers )Lambright 405-598-5874

 I have fliers with more info as to camp cost, prize,
and competition types.
 Contact me off list or call the above.
   These are more "Fun-D-Vous" as we are all still
striving to "build" our "presona"and improve.
 Our basic requirment is "Beginers Welcome" Inquiring
minds incouraged !!!!
 George




=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:05:19 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: off topic- gun prayer

Hello the camp,

A friend sent me this and it was too good to pass up!

Hope you enjoy it.

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country

Lord,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the weapons to make the difference.
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:09:27 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care

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I have a question to add to Steve's.  We know they carried tow worms, =
and there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I =
recall.  What did they use in the place of tow when it ran out.  Could =
they have used Buffalo Hair ?
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care
   =20
   =20
    I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now  I was =
taught to=20
    clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water.  =
Following=20
    this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down =
the=20
    barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights  =
barrel rib=20
    etc with WD40.  It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never =
had=20
    problems with rust.  As I get more involved in "the historical " =
aspect of=20
    muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending =
Rendezvous I=20
    wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from =
rust &=20
    corrosion,  I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of =
times(picked up a=20
    sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah)  Can =
anyone=20
    guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?  What did they use while =
out in=20
    the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed =
the annual=20
    rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick =
up=20
    supplies for the next trapping seasons?
   =20
    Steve
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have a question to add to =
Steve's.  We=20
know they carried tow worms, and there was a limited amount of tow taken =
to the=20
mountains, as I recall.  What did they use in the place of tow when =
it ran=20
out.  Could they have used Buffalo Hair ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Gun=20
    Care<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>I have been shooting muzzleloader for about =
4 years=20
    now  I was taught to <BR>clean my gun with hot soapy water and =
rinse it=20
    with hot water.  Following <BR>this "bath" I make =
sure it is=20
    dry and then I coat it real good (down the <BR>barrel and in all =
those=20
    little nooks and crannies under sights  barrel rib <BR>etc with =

    WD40.  It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never had=20
    <BR>problems with rust.  As I get more involved in "the =
historical=20
    " aspect of <BR>muzzle loading and especially historical =
trekking and=20
    attending Rendezvous I <BR>wonder how the early trappers kept their =
guns=20
    clean and free from rust & <BR>corrosion,  I know about=20
    "tow" and have used it a couple of times(picked up a =
<BR>sample=20
    from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah)  Can =
anyone=20
    <BR>guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?  What =
did they=20
    use while out in <BR>the "shinin mountains" and what =
materials=20
    were used if they missed the annual <BR>rendezvous or were unable to =
get to=20
    any sort of settlement to pick up <BR>supplies for the next trapping =

    seasons?<BR><BR>Steve<BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text =
list info:=20
    <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:26:04 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Larry,

I won't claim any particular expertise in this matter other than fair =
reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning practices we find that those =
same practices in the "mountains" would have resulted in our running out =
of cleaning materials very quickly. Any shooting at all and we would =
have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to nothing.

In my limited experimentation with alternate methods of gun care I find =
as others have, that a minimal amount of cleaning is actually required. =
Water being the most important ingredient and one that would have been =
relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean out muzzle loader =
barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems to be enough to =
break the bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be present. One =
additional ball of tow suffices to wipe out most of the moisture and =
will even apply a new layer of animal grease if I do not care to expend =
a third ball of tow devoted just to grease.

Compare that to modern practices of using multiple patches, etc. with =
all the attendant chemical concoctions that "Must Be Used". (of course =
many of us don't use such things). Very wasteful.

Now if you only clean your gun (in the mountains) when it really needs =
it (after some serious shooting) and you don't use half a bag of patches =
to do it what you do use to clean will last quit a while. If you use =
patches or tow and wash the cleaning materials out after use to be used =
again, your cleaning materials will last even longer.

Now consider that there are many alternatives to using flannel patches =
from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is the first one we think of, Buffalo hair =
should work OK, certain tree moss's should work (this is someone to try =
this summer) along with making great tinder,  practically any fiber that =
will hold together when wrapped around a tow worm or folded over a jag =
of either metal or cut from the wood of the cleaning rod. Probably some =
of the grasses, as long as they are not too weathered. Wool blanketing =
would work as would a small patch of cloth. Remember that they can be =
cleaned out with a quick squeeze in water and tied to your shoulder =
strap to dry.

Anyway, those are some of my guesses. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: larry pendleton=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:09 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care


  I have a question to add to Steve's.  We know they carried tow worms, =
and there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I =
recall.  What did they use in the place of tow when it ran out.  Could =
they have used Buffalo Hair ?
  Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM
    Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care


    I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now  I was =
taught to=20
    clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water.  =
Following=20
    this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down =
the=20
    barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights  =
barrel rib=20
    etc with WD40.  It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never =
had=20
    problems with rust.  As I get more involved in "the historical " =
aspect of=20
    muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending =
Rendezvous I=20
    wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from =
rust &=20
    corrosion,  I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of =
times(picked up a=20
    sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah)  Can =
anyone=20
    guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?  What did they use while =
out in=20
    the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed =
the annual=20
    rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick =
up=20
    supplies for the next trapping seasons?

    Steve

    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Larry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I won't claim any particular expertise =
in this=20
matter other than fair reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning =
practices we=20
find that those same practices in the "mountains" would have resulted in =
our=20
running out of cleaning materials very quickly. Any shooting at all and =
we would=20
have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to nothing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my limited experimentation with =
alternate=20
methods of gun care I find as others have, that a minimal amount of =
cleaning is=20
actually required. Water being the most important ingredient and one =
that would=20
have been relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean out muzzle =
loader=20
barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems to be enough to =
break the=20
bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be present. One additional =
ball of=20
tow suffices to wipe out most of the moisture and will even apply a new =
layer of=20
animal grease if I do not care to expend a third ball of tow devoted =
just to=20
grease.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Compare that to modern practices of =
using multiple=20
patches, etc. with all the attendant chemical concoctions that "Must Be =
Used".=20
(of course many of us don't use such things). Very =
wasteful.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now if you only clean your gun (in the =
mountains)=20
when it really needs it (after some serious shooting) and you don't use =
half a=20
bag of patches to do it what you do use to clean will last quit a while. =
If you=20
use patches or tow and wash the cleaning materials out after use to be =
used=20
again, your cleaning materials will last even longer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now consider that there are many =
alternatives to=20
using flannel patches from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is the first one we =
think=20
of, Buffalo hair should work OK, certain tree moss's should work (this =
is=20
someone to try this summer) along with making great tinder,  =
practically=20
any fiber that will hold together when wrapped around a tow worm or =
folded over=20
a jag of either metal or cut from the wood of the cleaning rod. Probably =
some of=20
the grasses, as long as they are not too weathered. Wool blanketing =
would work=20
as would a small patch of cloth. Remember that they can be cleaned out =
with a=20
quick squeeze in water and tied to your shoulder strap to =
dry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyway, those are some of my guesses. I =

remain....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>larry =
pendleton</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28, 2000 =
8:09=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Gun =
Care</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have a question to add to =
Steve's.  We=20
  know they carried tow worms, and there was a limited amount of tow =
taken to=20
  the mountains, as I recall.  What did they use in the place of =
tow when=20
  it ran out.  Could they have used Buffalo Hair ?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: =
Gun=20
    Care<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>I have been shooting muzzleloader for about =
4 years=20
    now  I was taught to <BR>clean my gun with hot soapy water and =
rinse it=20
    with hot water.  Following <BR>this "bath" I make sure it is =
dry and=20
    then I coat it real good (down the <BR>barrel and in all those =
little nooks=20
    and crannies under sights  barrel rib <BR>etc with WD40.  =
It has=20
    kept my gun in great shape and I have never had <BR>problems with=20
    rust.  As I get more involved in "the historical " aspect of =
<BR>muzzle=20
    loading and especially historical trekking and attending Rendezvous =
I=20
    <BR>wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free =
from rust=20
    & <BR>corrosion,  I know about "tow" and have used it a =
couple of=20
    times(picked up a <BR>sample from a friend at the School of the =
Mountain Man=20
    in Utah)  Can anyone <BR>guide me toward accurate "gun care"=20
    items?  What did they use while out in <BR>the "shinin =
mountains" and=20
    what materials were used if they missed the annual <BR>rendezvous or =
were=20
    unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick up <BR>supplies for =
the next=20
    trapping =
seasons?<BR><BR>Steve<BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text=20
    list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY=
></HTML>

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