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hist_text-digest      Saturday, February 26 2000      Volume 01 : Number 475



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: iron on ground
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: FW: Current discussion (argument)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:54:02 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Walt Foster,

Burton Harris' 1952, "John Colter His Years in the Rockies", republished=
 1977,
Big Horn Book Company, page 163.  Lists the Dutch Oven sold to  John Simpson
@$3.87, Hartley Sappington bought the pot and pot hooks for $4.00.  Colter
died
in November 1813.  If you had been paying attention you would know this was
previously covered. =20

Two points:  If the dutch oven was so precious, why did the pot sell for
more?=20
Second, this says nothing about exactly what style of dutch oven was sold.=
=20
This offers no proof that what was sold resembled in any way a modern camp
oven.  It doesn't even prove it was cast iron.  It also says nothing about
what
his pot was made of.

I still maintain the dutch oven in question MAY BE something like the round
top
version you despise, or is a brick lined oven (unlikely, but based on what=
 we
don't know not fully excludable), or is a reflector oven.  All valid
definitions of the term "Dutch Oven".  It's all a may be because no one=
 really
knows.=20

Prove the existence of the modern camp oven before 1840 and the possibility
list only grows.  Nothing submitted has even begun to suggest a modern camp
oven is remotely correct.
 =20
Were there any footnotes or references to sources provided to support the
statement you placed in quotes?  I do note the use of the word "legend" and
the
lack of specificity; it does read like great historical fluff.  The first
recognized use of the term "dutch oven" was in 1760 which makes the quote=
 you
included PURE unadulterated BS.

begin copy of quote:
>"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and
>legend for more than one hundred years.=A0 It is also interesting to note=
 that
>in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay."=A0=20
end copy of quote.

Burton on page 172 provides the following:
"(17) Extract of sale bill dated December 10, 1813, made from records of the
Probate Court, City of St. Louis, originally located by Dr. Trail.  The
figures
quoted are precisely as quoted by the Probate Court.  The careful reader=
 will
note that the totals are incorrect."  (This speaks to the calculated grand
total, the court clerk couldn't add.)

Your example does not provide any of the documentation you seek.  I accept=
 few
books at face value; too many have been fabricated wholly of rumor,
mis-information and the writers personal assumptions, I am not familiar with
the book you quote. =20

I have found six references to Paul Revere being the designer of the modern
camp oven.  None offer any source for the information, 4 admit it is a
legend.=20
All who repeat the legend are trying to sell something involved with modern
style camp/dutch ovens.  I don't consider them any more authoritative than=
 the
Official Utah Pot Page.  Nothing more than great historical rumors.  Go find
the facts if you still believe the Bullshit.

What evidence of use of a modern camp oven by Lewis & Clark?  Once again you
include a flat statement without ANY supporting information.  Do you think=
 at
this point I'm going to accept what you say at face value? =20

I can't be ignoring evidence -- you haven't provided any.  The most you've
done
is repeat that which has already been refuted by fact as you attempt to=
 start
new rumors.

I am not sure why you are pursuing this nonsense.  Your #1 & #6 pot, if like
that pictured in Ruxton between pages 108 & 109 or in Miller on page 135=
 (same
picture) is what those who've made substantive comment on this list are=
 agreed
is the type of pot that could have been in the Rocky Mountains in LIMITED
numbers prior to 1840.  A round bottom three legged pot -- exactly what has
been described again and again.  It bears absolutely no resemblance to a
modern
camp oven. =20

Keep in mind that Miller mostly depicted the stuff that Stewart brought=
 along
which is far from typical of what the great unwashed had available.

A very similar legged round bottom pot can be seen and purchased in a=
 variety
of sizes at:=20

<http://www.caspians.net/cast_iron_pots.htm>http://www.caspians.net/cast_ir
on_pots.htm

PLEASE NOTE:  WE HAVE NO, I repeat, NO, I repeat, NO EVIDENCE yet submitted
that ANY of the early pots CAME WITH lids.  These folks (there are others)
will
sell you a pot they call an "African Potje" which comes with a raised lip
lid.=20
At least they'll look right as long as there's not one on every fire.=20
Remember, at best, cast iron was uncommon per a real authority, Charles
Hanson.

My patience has worn thin on this now ridiculous subject.  If you choose to
pursue this issue come up with something of substance.  Quit spewing=
 nonsense
or I'll not be nearly so polite in the future.

To those who've had to read all this drivel, I do apologize.  It is only
important because nonsense, as has been presented, is how the wrong
information
becomes historical gospel.  We must stamp it out at its source as it raises
its
ugly head.  It happens because people want something to be fact for their
comfort & convenience or to conform to their preconceived notions; and they
are
too lazy to do the real research required.

John...

BEWARE: modern camp ovens may now be subject to the great historical hammer
test.





At 09:43 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello again John Kramer.
>
>Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don Holm
>1969.
>His introduction starts this way.=A0 " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in=
 a
>log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man=
 named
>John Colter died of "jaundice."=A0 With him at the time were his bride=
 Sally
>and a couple of neighbors.=A0 Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l
>Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby.=A0 Colter, you may recall,=
 was
>a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the
>Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now=
 Yellowstone
>National Park.=A0 He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique
>breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty years
>and opened the Far West for the latecomers.=A0 For the purpose of this=
 tale,
>however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter's
>personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item:
>
>"To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00."
>
>"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and
>legend for more than one hundred years.=A0 It is also interesting to note=
 that
>in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay."=A0 Bill
>Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier.
>
>You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is
>presented that they at least existed during the period.=A0 This has yet to=
 be
>shown, you say.=A0 The above example does demonstrate existence and use=
 during
>the American Mountain Man era.
>
>John Colter did not live long after he left the area.=A0 I think it is you=
 who
>are ignoring the evidence.=A0 You have ignored the evidence of John Colter=
 and
>you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark.
>
>I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis=
 and
>Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006.
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:20:23 -0600
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: iron on ground

Didn't say that they cracked when set down. Mine cracked when it froze
with water in it..   the other one was dropped pretty hard and it
repaired well.

I haven't gotten replies yet to inquiries.
Mike

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:06:46 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

John,
I don't know why a lot of pots have iron bails and I could be dead wrong
about them knowing about the problem and it could be the Iron backing on th=
e
Statue of Liberty being so close to salt water that excelerated the prosess=
.
Ole
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 1:43 PM
>

>Ole,
>
>Sorry to hear of your tragedy.=A0 We'll argue when you get back.=A0
>
>As to the trade, I thought it was you, must have been someone else in the
>GBB.=A0
>It was one of the large repro's out of OK back in the late '70's
>
>If the people who made the pots knew so much about the interaction of meta=
ls
>and were so concerned with it --- then why do all the brass pots have iron
>bales up through the late nineteenth century?
>
>John...
>
>
>At 08:04 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>John,
>>Don't get so excited!
>>You never did trade me a pot.
>>Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin
>>pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp?
>>As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it f=
ood
>>safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or
>>brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which caus=
es
>>the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue=
 of
>>Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless
>>steel for that verry reason.
>>The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did.
>>Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when
>>you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperat=
ly.
>>(or traded)
>>John,
>>On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so
>>save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning i=
n a
>>car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's.
>>Ole #718
>>----------
>>>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>>>To: [e-mail]
>>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>>>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM
>>>
>>
>>>Ole,
>>>
>>>You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.=A0 Please give it up your
>>>arguments
>>>are becoming ludicrous.
>>>
>>>You've entirely changed what you are saying.=A0
>>>
>>>I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three leg=
ged
>>>round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago.=A0 I will argue agai=
nst
>>>modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST
>EXISTED
>>>during the period.=A0 This has yet to be shown.
>>>
>>>If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would=
 be
>>>your personal choice and I would never have said a word.=A0 Now you've mad=
e a
>>>public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as
>>>possible.=A0
>>>
>>>Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern
>>>metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in
>>>contact.=A0 BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!=A0
>>>
>>>I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!=A0
>>>
>>>There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid
>>>anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a mea=
l.
>>>Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin po=
t is
>>>tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there.=A0 Part of the
>restoration
>>>of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and =
iron
>>>where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem.=A0 The Statu=
e is
>>>much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the pro=
blem
>>>when it was built.
>>>
>>>There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's
>pictures
>>>of cook pots.=A0 You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bott=
om
>>>pots
>>>and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern
>camp
>>>oven.=A0
>>>
>>>As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them=
 and
>>>they're sure to enjoy the experience.=A0
>>>
>>>John...
>>>
>>>
>>>At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>John,
>>>>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to s=
tart
>>>>but I will try.
>>>>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You=
 are
>>>>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the
>>>>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I =
have
>>>>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in
>>>>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. Fo=
r
>>>>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you
>have
>>>>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are
>definatly
>>>>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron).
>>>>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that th=
e
>>>>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar
>>>>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).
>>>>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that le=
ads
>>>>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just plac=
ed
>>>>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn =
in
>>>>the same expedition.
>>>>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock.
>>>>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concide=
r
>>>>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time.
>>>>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall=
 by
>>>>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I woul=
d
>>>>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, =
If
>>>>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.
>>>>Your old Dogmatic freind!
>>>>Ole # 718
>>>>----------
>>>
>>>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>>>
>>>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>>>
>>><<http://www.kramerize.com/>http://www.kramerize.com/>
>>>
>>>mail to: <[e-mail]>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info:
><http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.co=
m/
>~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info:
><http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.co=
m/
>~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:08:22 -0400
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?

Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to
its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at:

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg

The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the
metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and
the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the
pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no
sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one.

Thanks.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:23:18 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?

Great pot.  Don't have a clue about its origin, but the photograph is =
very good.
Lanney Ratcliff
photographer

- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 8:08 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?


> Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess =
as to
> its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's =
at:
>=20
> http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg
>=20
> The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, =
the
> metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, =
and
> the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of =
the
> pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show =
no
> sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> Bob
>=20
> Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:25:56 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: FW: Current discussion (argument)

- ----------
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
To: Tod Glover <[e-mail]> , Bill Cunningham <[e-mail]> ,
Allen Hall <<[e-mail]>> , Billy Keith <[e-mail]> ,
Larry Price <[e-mail]> , Lynn Stokes <[e-mail]> ,
Brad Freeze <[e-mail]> , dean rudy <[e-mail]> , John
Kramer <[e-mail]> , Ronald Schroter <[e-mail]> ,
Ferrell Peterson <[e-mail]> , Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Current discussion (argument)
Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 8:25 PM


Brothers,
I started this litle discussion concerning "Dutch Ovens" and too me it's
been great fun, John Kramer an I have been good freinds for 25 years and we
have many such discussions.
I have noticed that there are a lot of good brothers out there that have
difering opinion and they have expressed those opinions without getting
"HOT" but now I am starting to see some tempers flare and I think we need to
let this subject lie where it is. However if someone comes up with some more
evidence I would like to be made aware of it and I will keep on looking as
well.
I wish to thank all those who partisipated in this debate no mater what your
opinion is .
YMOS
Ole # 718

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:25:40 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?


Walt Foster,

My patience has worn thin on this now ridiculous subject.  If you choose to
pursue this issue come up with something of substance.  Quit spewing
nonsense
or I'll not be nearly so polite in the future  John...

Well John, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Ole, mine, yours and the
others who have contributed to Ole's questioning and reasoning.  I am not
worried about your patience with me or even your being polite to me now or
in the future.  Threating or using emotionally charged language to
intimidate does not bother me in a conversation as important as this issue
is..  What bothers me is the failure to follow out each single thread.  Not
a good condition for the positive exchange of educational information.

For example:  you raise the 13 cent difference in price between John
Colter's Dutch oven and the pot with hooks.  I would think that the word
hooks would mean 2 or more.  If 2 hooks were present they might have been
valued and six and a half cents a piece or 13 cents for the pair.  This
would account for the difference in the sales price you are making with your
13 cent statements.

Another example is the Catlin short hand sketches.  Did you stop to consider
that the size differences you note only as background and foreground figures
and your being able to count only 6 of the 8 pots illustraited could be
accounted for by seeing what the artist was presenting.  A spread of camp
cooking equipment prehaps of the same size spread out with 2 of the 8 pots
hidden behind the closer pots which apprear bigger?

A third example is your statement "I still maintain the dutch oven in
question MAY BE something like the round top version you despise,"  I never
said that and now you are trying to put words in my mouth. LOL.  I have only
room for my own words.VBG  I do not believe the nifty round pot is a Dutch
oven.  This shape was traded on at least 4 continents including the land
down under in 1820 according to our Aussie friend who contributed this
information.  I think some time between now and 2006 we will have a lot more
information on Lewis and Clark including Dutch oven/s they carried.

Walt
Park City, Montana





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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:35:16 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?

> Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>

This is the pot that is acceptable to mountain man activities as it stands.
I have a #1 which holds one gallon and a #6 which hold 6 gallons.  These
pots were traded into India, Africa, America and Australia.  This pot looks
similar to mine and I believe would have come with a lid.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:44:38 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?

It's a Cauldron, but as to its age I couldn't tell you.
They were made all over the world and still are.
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 7:08 PM
>

>Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to
>its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at:
>
>http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg
>
>The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the
>metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and
>the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the
>pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no
>sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Bob
>
>Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:10:24 -0400
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?

>Great pot.  Don't have a clue about its origin, but the photograph is very
>good.

Thanks, Lanny. Digital camera, tungsten light.

bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:07:53 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens?

Bob,

From what I've been able to find out: up to about the mid-1700's the sprue
mark
would be circular and on the bottom of the casting.=A0 From then until the=
 late
1800's it would be a long thin sprue mark on the bottom, from about 1870-80=
 on
the sprue marks would be on the sides; like you describe on your pot: ground
smooth to offer a nice appearance.=A0 The thickness, quality of the iron and=
 the
casting technique all help to determine when a pot may have been made.=A0=
 There
are a few pots of known provenance which help in determining which is what.

The below link is of a mid-period sprue mark:

http://www.kramerize.com/img/spydspru.jpg

Your pot is of a basically proper style of the period.=A0 Other than rarity=
 in
the mountains would be about as correct as a cast iron pot can be.=A0 See=
 the
Collectors Encyclopedia of The American Revolution for additional examples.

John...


At 10:08 PM 2/25/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to
>its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at:
>
><http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg>http://members.aye.net/
~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg
>
>The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the
>metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and
>the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the
>pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no
>sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Bob
>
>Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:03:59 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Norman, thanks for this useful information.
Walt
Park City, Montana



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Anderson" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?


> I don't know about a "Camp Oven" in the Lewis and Clark Journals, but
> Private Joseph Whitehouse and Sergeant John Ordway both specifically
> mentions caching at least one "dutch oven" along with other goods at the
> mouth of the Marias River on June 11, 1805.
>
> Norman Anderson



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:43:17 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I was referring to the thin "cast iron" (poor quality) pots as described =
in The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly I originally made reference to. =
 I, too, have never had a problem with current day cast iron cooking =
gear.  I sincerely doubt that anything remotely equivalent to modern day =
cast iron existed in the 1800's.  And, nothing on this thread has even =
remotely suggested otherwise.  The only thing we keep calling some sort =
of primitive cook ware is "Dutch Oven".  I tend to think it was more of =
a style of pot rather than a specifically produced item, as it is today. =
I hope no one thinks that today's metallurgic technology mirrors that of =
1800.
John Funk
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Walt Foster=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 1:09 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots


  Hello John Funk.
  I wonder why I have not had similar problems in using cast iron =
portable ovens as described below.  For example over the past 12 years I =
have spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous =
alone.  I still have my first Dutch oven.  It has been in constant use =
for since 1967.  I have not had any problems with the other 4 ovens I =
have.  I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a Paul Revere =
design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described as a =
caldron.  Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men as =
evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion.
  Walt
  Park City, Montana

  I have used this camp equipment in very cold weather and I have never =
taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on frozen ground and had it =
break.  That is a myth.  Mike brings up an interesting point just from a =
practical standpoint.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle =
would last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it =
and set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the =
cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have =
had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John  Funk



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>I was referring to the thin "cast iron" (poor quality) pots as =
described in=20
The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly I originally made reference =
to.  I,=20
too, have never had a problem with current day cast iron cooking =
gear.  I=20
sincerely doubt that anything remotely equivalent to modern day cast =
iron=20
existed in the 1800's.  And, nothing on this thread has even =
remotely=20
suggested otherwise.  The only thing we keep calling some sort of =
primitive=20
cook ware is "Dutch Oven".  I tend to think it was more of a style =
of pot=20
rather than a specifically produced item, as it is today. I =
hope no=20
one thinks that today's metallurgic technology mirrors that of =
1800.</DIV>
<DIV>John Funk</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" title=[e-mail]>Walt =
Foster</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 25, 2000 =
1:09=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Cast =
iron=20
  pots</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello John Funk.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I wonder why I have not had similar =
problems in=20
  using cast iron portable ovens as described below.  For example =
over the=20
  past 12 years I have spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge =
Mountain Man=20
  Rendezvous alone.  I still have my first Dutch oven.  It has =
been in=20
  constant use for since 1967.  I have not had any problems with =
the other=20
  4 ovens I have.  I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to =
a Paul=20
  Revere design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven =
described as a=20
  caldron.  Both had a history of use with the American Mountain =
Men as=20
  evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Park City, Montana</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have used this camp equipment in =
very cold=20
  weather and I have never taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on =
frozen=20
  ground and had it break.  That is a myth.  </FONT>Mike =
brings up an=20
  interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  Can you =
imagine how=20
  long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness?  Cook =

  something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold=20
  ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the =
fire.... =20
  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life =
considering how=20
  thin they apparently were. John  Funk</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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