I have a quick question which some of you may have stumbled upon in your
travels.
In the COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA... page 95, item #33 shows a
"copper pan braizer with iron legs & points" and started me thinking (a
dangerous past-time, I know) - would it be safe to burn coal/charcoal/twigs
in such a contraption? It appears simple enough to make, even for me, BUT
I am wondering if a copper or brass bowl/pan would produce dangerous fumes?
I know cooking in them is a major no-no, but is burning in them the same?
In advance I thank you ,
Scott C
sjsdm@conpoint.com
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:18:07 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer
Scott,
Not a problem. Make one and enjoy.
The only problem with cooking in copper or brass is if the vessel has
oxidized,
the resulting salt of the metal can be transferred to the food. That is a
problem as copper in salt form is a poison historically it is known as
verdigris. When vessels are tinned the problem is eliminated. The
problem is
most troublesome with highly acidic foods. It is not the most dangerous
poison
in the world.
The brazier offers no special hazard beyond any other open flame of similar
combustible materials. Commercial charcoal is more dangerous than real
charcoal.
Thanks for another good example of using iron and copper in conjunction with
each other during the period. I forgot to mention that brass and copper=
pots
usually had iron bails mounted on them.
John...
At 08:07 PM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Esteemed List Members,
>
>I have a quick question which some of you may have stumbled upon in your
>travels.
>
>In the COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA... page 95, item #33 shows a
>"copper pan braizer with iron legs & points" and started me thinking (a
>dangerous past-time, I know) - would it be safe to burn coal/charcoal/twigs
>in such a contraption?=A0 It appears simple enough to make, even for me,=
BUT
>I am wondering if a copper or brass bowl/pan would produce dangerous fumes?
> I know cooking in them is a major no-no, but is burning in them the same?
>
>In advance I thank you ,
>Scott C
>sjsdm@conpoint.com
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:40:14 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: dutch ovens
Lewis' and Clarks' folding "thing" that they burned to reclaim the metal
was a boat. It was an experiment that Lewis thought up. It did not work well
and was finally scraped.
Methinks the dutch oven thing has run its course.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:12:20 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Ho the List,
The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow.
Ymos,
Steve
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:19:42 -0800
From: "Poorboy" <poorboy@ieway.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: L&C iron boat
Klahowya,
The iron boat that Lewis brought with him from St. Louis, was actually only
a boat frame. The frame work or skeleton was bolted together and covered
with woven willow branches, bark and elk hides. Lewis had originally
planned to seal the seams with pine pitch sealant. There being no pine
trees near White Bear Island, above the great falls of the Missouri River,
they were forced to use a mixture of buffalo tallow, beeswax, and ashes.
This did not work, the boat sank on its virgin voyage. Here is where my
memory may fail me..... It was my understanding that at that time Lewis had
the boat dismantled and placed in a cache with many other items.
Interestingly enough there is no mention in the journal translations that I
have read that they ever recovered these items.
Please excuse me if I have made a blatant error of fact here, I am trying to
squeeze this mail out before leaving for work. I will double check my
references this evening and post any corrections. However, if anyone has
additional/differing information please share it as I am always willing to
learn. ( and would like to be corrected if I am wrong here:) ).
Klahowya,
PoorBoy
poorboy@ieway.com
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:04:52 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
John,
Don't get so excited!
You never did trade me a pot.
Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin
pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp?
As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it foo=
d
safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or
brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes
the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue o=
f
Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless
steel for that verry reason.
The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did.
Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when
you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperatly=
.
(or traded)
John,
On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so
save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in =
a
car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's.
Ole #718
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM
>
>Ole,
>
>You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your
>arguments
>are becoming ludicrous.
>
>You've entirely changed what you are saying.
>
>I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legge=
d
>round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue agains=
t
>modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXIS=
TED
>during the period. This has yet to be shown.
>
>If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would b=
e
>your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made =
a
>public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as
>possible.
>
>Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern
>metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in
>contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!
>
>I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid
>anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.=
>Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot =
is
>tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the restorat=
ion
>of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and ir=
on
>where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue =
is
>much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the probl=
em
>when it was built.
>
>There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pict=
ures
>of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom
>pots
>and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern c=
amp
>oven.
>
>As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them a=
nd
>they're sure to enjoy the experience.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>John,
>>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to sta=
rt
>>but I will try.
>>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You a=
re
>>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the
>>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I ha=
ve
>>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in
>>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For
>>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you h=
ave
>>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are defina=
tly
>>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron).
>>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the
>>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar
>>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).
>>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that lead=
s
>>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed
>>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in
>>the same expedition.
>>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock.
>>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider
>>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time.
>>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall b=
y
>>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would
>>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If
>>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.
>>Your old Dogmatic freind!
>>Ole # 718
>>----------
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:12:32 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Ole,
Our condolences to the family.
John Funk
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ole B. Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
John,
Don't get so excited!
You never did trade me a pot.
Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin
pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp?
As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it food
safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or
brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes
the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue of
Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless
steel for that verry reason.
The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did.
Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when
you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperatly.
(or traded)
John,
On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so
save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in a
car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's.
Ole #718
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM
>
>Ole,
>
>You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your
>arguments
>are becoming ludicrous.
>
>You've entirely changed what you are saying.
>
>I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legged
>round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue against
>modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST
EXISTED
>during the period. This has yet to be shown.
>
>If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would be
>your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made a
>public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as
>possible.
>
>Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern
>metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in
>contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!
>
>I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid
>anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.
>Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot
is
>tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the
restoration
>of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and
iron
>where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue
is
>much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the
problem
>when it was built.
>
>There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's
pictures
>of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom
>pots
>and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern
camp
>oven.
>
>As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them
and
>they're sure to enjoy the experience.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>John,
>>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to
start
>>but I will try.
>>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You
are
>>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the
>>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I
have
>>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in
>>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For
>>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you
have
>>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are
definatly
>>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron).
>>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the
>>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar
>>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).
>>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads
>>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed
>>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in
>>the same expedition.
>>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock.
>>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider
>>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time.
>>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by
>>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would
>>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If
>>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.
>>Your old Dogmatic freind!
>>Ole # 718
>>----------
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
> >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:36:14 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Hello, Ole.
Our best to you and yours as you deal with this. God speed and safe return.
Walt
Park City, Montana
On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so
save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in a
car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's.
Ole #718
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:38:39 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
> Ho the List,
> The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in
Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is
called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll
try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow.
> Ymos,
> Steve
Good show Steve. I was beginning to wonder if I had Al's Hammer disease.
It is tough when you do not have the books and rely on memory.
Walt
Park City, Montana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:43:43 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Hello again John Kramer.
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don Holm
1969.
His introduction starts this way. " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in a
log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man named
John Colter died of "jaundice." With him at the time were his bride Sally
and a couple of neighbors. Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l
Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby. Colter, you may recall, was
a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the
Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now Yellowstone
National Park. He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique
breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty years
and opened the Far West for the latecomers. For the purpose of this tale,
however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter's
personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item:
"To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00."
"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and
legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note that
in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." Bill
Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier.
You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is
presented that they at least existed during the period. This has yet to be
shown, you say. The above example does demonstrate existence and use during
the American Mountain Man era.
John Colter did not live long after he left the area. I think it is you who
are ignoring the evidence. You have ignored the evidence of John Colter and
you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark.
I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis and
Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006.
Walt
Park City, Montana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:02:05 -0700 (MST)
From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Need Assistance
Lost a Web-Address for
Merry "Medicine Fox" Sampson
If anyone know how I can contact
this Trader (Web-Site or E-mail )
please, please.
E-mail me off list @
delis@aztec.asu.edu
- --
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:24:42 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Assistance
Bruce, Here's the link. If you need more info, lemme know. Barney Fife <
A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/~wolf_trader/orderinfo.html">Wolf Trader
Order Information</A>
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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:09:26 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots
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Hello John Funk.
I wonder why I have not had similar problems in using cast iron portable =
ovens as described below. For example over the past 12 years I have =
spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous =
alone. I still have my first Dutch oven. It has been in constant use =
for since 1967. I have not had any problems with the other 4 ovens I =
have. I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a Paul Revere =
design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described as a =
caldron. Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men as =
evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion.
Walt
Park City, Montana
I have used this camp equipment in very cold weather and I have never =
taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on frozen ground and had it =
break. That is a myth. Mike brings up an interesting point just from a =
practical standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle =
would last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it =
and set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the =
cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have =
had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk
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