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hist_text-digest      Thursday, February 24 2000      Volume 01 : Number 473



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark story
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark story]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?/Wired Top
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:06:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark story

Pat,

I think the story you are referring to goes something like this...

The blacksmith with L&C made a device that took the kernals off of corn
cobbs (or something like that) for the Mandan.  This contraption was made
while wintering with them on their way west in 1804.  On the return trip
they inquired about the device and were told that it had been dismantled and
made into arrow heads.  Upon inquiring as to why this had been done, the
Mandan chief replied that he had squaws that could shuck the corn, but that
metal for arrow heads was far more valuable and difficult to come by.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 12:05 PM 02/23/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Sorry to jump in on an interesting thread with basically hearsay, but do I
>not recall that Lewis and Clark noted the ingenuity of one of their
>expedition members, who recyled the burnt out sheet metal remnants of some
>kind of folding?? stove or oven into metal for trading to the Indians? Could
>this be the L&C "camp oven" which has been noted in this thread (as distinct
>from "dutch oven")?
>YMOS
>Pat Quilter
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:52:34 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls

you didnt say if you wanted it staimed or unstained---
hawk---

On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:01:04 EST [e-mail] writes:
> Thanks Hawk..... tiger maple and a cloth bag would be great! Let me
> know what
> the damage is...
> Ymos
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:01:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

What is a biscuit lid?

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------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 00 07:05:52 EST
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark story]

Boys,

This was a common practice with the Native Americans, look through the Mu=
seum
Quartlies you'll find many references to pots, spoons to guns and their p=
arts
being used for other purposes. I have always liked the Indian picture tha=
t
Charley had in his office, taken after the Little Big Horn fight - he's
holding a yellow boy rifle, and wearing 8-10 snakes side plates from trad=
e
guns as a breast plate.

I'm surprised that Buck Conner hasn't jumped in on this discussion on ket=
tles,
cast iron, etc., I was at his place a month ago and he has some really fi=
ne
thin walled kettles from the Museum of the Fur Trade - purchased 25-30 ye=
ars
ago. One kettle is very old like 1770's or 80's that Hanson gave him as a=

gift, thin wall, round bottom, three legs, wire bale, smooth casting, pro=
bably
close to what would have been used in small groups, holds about 1-1/2 gal=
lons
of liquid I would guess.

He also has a copper bar flattened on one end that was a corn sheller fou=
nd at
a Delaware camp site near Reading PA, still has part of a leather strap t=
hat
was used to hold it on your hand - Hanson figured it maybe as old the 160=
0's ?
I'll get hold of Buck and see if he can put some pictures up on the list =
of
these items.

We have had some good stuff lately on the list, keep it up.

Later

Concho.



Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]> wrote:

I think the story you are referring to goes something like this...

The blacksmith with L&C made a device that took the kernals off of corn
cobbs (or something like that) for the Mandan.  This contraption was made=

while wintering with them on their way west in 1804.  On the return trip
they inquired about the device and were told that it had been dismantled =
and
made into arrow heads.  Upon inquiring as to why this had been done, the
Mandan chief replied that he had squaws that could shuck the corn, but th=
at
metal for arrow heads was far more valuable and difficult to come by.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
_________________________________________________________________________=
_______

At 12:05 PM 02/23/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Sorry to jump in on an interesting thread with basically hearsay, but do=
 I
>not recall that Lewis and Clark noted the ingenuity of one of their
>expedition members, who recyled the burnt out sheet metal remnants of so=
me
>kind of folding?? stove or oven into metal for trading to the Indians? C=
ould
>this be the L&C "camp oven" which has been noted in this thread (as dist=
inct
>from "dutch oven")? =

>YMOS
>Pat Quilter



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:02:45 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls

did you want it stained or unstained---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:04:59 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- --MS_Mac_OE_3034224300_57517_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

John C. Funk,
Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for a
new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.
Ole # 718
- ----------
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
To: "history line" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 PM


Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  Can
you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness?
Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold
ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has
to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life considering how thin
they apparently were.
John  Funk


- --MS_Mac_OE_3034224300_57517_MIME_Part
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
John C. Funk,<BR>
Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for =
a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
- ----------<BR>
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]><BR>
To: "history line" <[e-mail]><BR>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens<BR>
Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 PM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical stand=
point.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle wou=
ld last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it an=
d set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear =
isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot wo=
uld have had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.<BR>
John  Funk<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:36:42 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7E99.E51DE160
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re: MtMan-List: Dutch OvensYa got a point, Ole !!  But how many time do =
you go back before you buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-)
John Funk
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ole B. Jensen=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:04 AM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens


  John C. Funk,
  Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade =
for a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.
  Ole # 718
  ----------
  From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
  To: "history line" <[e-mail]>
  Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
  Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 PM



    Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical =
standpoint.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would =
last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and =
set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the =
cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have =
had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.
    John  Funk



- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7E99.E51DE160
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Ya got a point, Ole !!  But how many time do you go back =
before you=20
buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-)</DIV>
<DIV>John Funk</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Ole=20
  B. Jensen</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 24, =
2000 7:04=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Dutch=20
Ovens</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>John C. Funk,<BR>Well wouldn't that make the owner of =
such a=20
  keatle head back and trade for a new one? like we do with car's and =
other=20
  consumer goods today.<BR>Ole # 718<BR>----------<BR>From: "John C. =
Funk, Jr."=20
  <<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR>To=
:=20
  "history line" <<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR>Subject:=20
  MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens<BR>Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 =
PM<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical=20
    standpoint.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle =
would=20
    last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove =
it and=20
    set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear =
isn't the=20
    cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot =
would have=20
    had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.<BR>John=20
     Funk<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:15:55 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- --MS_Mac_OE_3034232156_529917_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

John,
1 or 2 depends on your temper I guess ( ha ha) It's the keep up with the
neighbor thing too!
Consumerizem.
- ----------
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 8:36 AM


Ya got a point, Ole !!  But how many time do you go back before you buy a
flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-)
John Funk
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ole B. Jensen <mailto:[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens

John C. Funk,
Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for a
new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.
Ole # 718
- ----------
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]
<mailto:[e-mail]> >
To: "history line" <[e-mail]
<mailto:[e-mail]> >
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 PM


Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  Can
you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness?
Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold
ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has
to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life considering how thin
they apparently were.
John  Funk



- --MS_Mac_OE_3034232156_529917_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
John, <BR>
1 or 2 depends on your temper I guess ( ha ha) It's the keep up with the ne=
ighbor thing too!<BR>
Consumerizem.<BR>
- ----------<BR>
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]><BR>
To: <[e-mail]><BR>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens<BR>
Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 8:36 AM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Ya got a point, Ole !!  But how many time do you go back b=
efore you buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-)<BR>
John Funk<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Ole B. Jensen <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:olebjensen@e=
arthlink.net</U></FONT>>  <BR>
<B>To:</B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>=
 <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>=
>  <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:04 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens<BR>
<BR>
John C. Funk,<BR>
Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for =
a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
- ----------<BR>
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>J2Hearts@n=
orcalis.net</U></FONT> <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:J2Hearts@norcalis=
.net</U></FONT>> ><BR>
To: "history line" <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>hist_text@lists.x=
mission.com</U></FONT> <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:hist_text@lists.x=
mission.com</U></FONT>> ><BR>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens<BR>
Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 PM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical stand=
point.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle wou=
ld last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it an=
d set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear =
isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot wo=
uld have had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.<BR>
John  Funk<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:38:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls

In a message dated 2/23/00 8:56:28 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< you didnt say if you wanted it staimed or unstained---
hawk---
 >>

Hmmmm....stained!

Ymos

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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:02:24 +0200
From: "K.C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --Boundary_(ID_/Z2Ip+MNnvIhhzXrp4vcxg)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

G'day people!
An observation from RSA is that the Voortrekkers and the 1820 Settlers =
took their round-bellied, cast iron pots, with them when trekking in the =
wilderness; the pots were an extremely important part of their equipment =
and would seem to have been quite durable.
Yours sincerely,
K.C.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John C. Funk, Jr.=20
  To: history line=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:28 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens


  Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  =
Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the =
wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" =
on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the =
fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life =
considering how thin they apparently were.
  John  Funk

- --Boundary_(ID_/Z2Ip+MNnvIhhzXrp4vcxg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>G'day people!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>An observation from RSA is that the Voortrekkers and =
the 1820=20
Settlers took their round-bellied, cast iron pots, with them when =
trekking=20
in the wilderness; the pots were an extremely important part of their =
equipment=20
and would seem to have been quite durable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yours sincerely,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>K.C.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>John C.=20
  Funk, Jr.</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>history line</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 24, =
2000 4:28=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Dutch =
Ovens</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical=20
  standpoint.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle =
would last=20
  in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and =
set the=20
  "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the =
cracking of=20
  the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a =
short=20
  life considering how thin they apparently were.</DIV>
  <DIV>John  Funk</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:51:42 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?/Wired Top

Ol' Pard,

Clever them old timers.=A0 Lots easier to use than digging a hole or turning=
 the
lid upside down.=A0=20

I'm right partial to a crust of good bread, particularly when I'm mopping up
the drippings from some hunk of old dead meat or a well seasoned pot of
beans.=A0


John...


At 04:37 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>John,
>
>Here's a hint.=A0 As a lad I found a tiny wire fence in an ancient packers
>campsite.=A0 This fence was so old it was almost memories and dust.=A0 It w=
as
made
>by twisting a couple pieces of wire into hoops and then twisting little=
 fence
>posts every so often to keep the hoops separated about an inch apart.=A0=
 The
hoops
>were just the size of a regular pot lid.=A0 I put the dang thing in my pack=
 and
>kept it in camp but I puzzled over it for a few months until one day when I
>wanted to make some real bread.=A0 Then it struck me exactly what the hoops
were
>for.=A0 Of course you've guessed by now that the fence was made to keep the
coals
>on the top of a domed lid pot...what'll they think of next?
>
>Rick--who, by the way, makes excellent bread!
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:11:19 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Ole,

I am not going to let you off the hook on this one with an agreement to
disagree.  You have nothing to support your contentions and the danger is
someone else may take your notions as gospel.

At 06:31 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Brigham Young and Jim Bridger had at best a dislike for each other.

You could say that.  To the day he died Mr. Bridger would have plugged Brigham
between the eyes if Mr. Bridger had his eyesight, a rifle, and Brigham in
range.

>Calling a baking oven lined with brick a Dutch Oven is a strange argument
>and how would such an oven be sold as part of Colters posessions?

I only provided the accepted definitions from a reputable source.  The entire
definition was repeated from a previous post as no one arguing your point had
bothered to read it.  The point was made to reiterate the lack of a precise
definition in the records referenced.  What about the reflector style dutch
oven you've chosen to totally ignore?  What about the fact the definition
speaks to cooking meat and not a word about baking?

If a Dutch oven is such a prized and valuable possession, and of the style
you're determined to justify, why did Coulter's sell for less than his common
pot at auction?  Thirteen cents meant something back then.

>John, I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed
>flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co.
>at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat.

Then where is there any indication of such in trade lists and records of The
American Fur Co.?  Where are any existing examples?  Where is there any
proof?
Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it even plausible.

Where is the evidence to support YOU calling it an iron pot?  The text in the
book only mentions an iron cover, which says nothing about what the pots are
made of.  A simple square piece of sheet iron could be called a cover.
You, by
saying such, are spreading mis-information and rewriting history.  You don't
have any facts to support such a statement.  That Catlin felt it necessary to
specifically mention a cover would indicate to me that a lid may have been
uncommon.  To specify the covers as iron might indicate the pots were made of
something else.  We don't and won't ever know exactly what is illustrated.
Catlin offers nothing to support your contentions.

Catlin was a terrible artist and a worse historian.   We study what he left
simply because its almost all there is, not because of its excellence or
accuracy.

I quote:  "...in a row on the ground, were six or eight kettles with iron
covers on them,"

Six pots are pictured they seem to be in descending size foreground to back,
Catlin is not noted for accuracy of perspective, it seems he couldn't even
count, he offers no such perspective in other drawings.  Every pot/kettle he
illustrates in the book looks pretty much the same.  All we really know from
Catlin is that they probably had some sort of a pot and for this feast they
were covered with something made of iron.

The most logical interpretation of what was drawn is a set of nesting sheet
metal pots.  We have plenty of information to indicate those were readily
available.  We know some round bottom cast pots were available.  There is
nothing to support your interpretation of a really crude drawing.

Give it up or show real evidence: what you've found in Catlin is only wishful
thinking.  No one who has studied pots has ever seen an "old" pot of the type
you specify, yet you persist.  None are mentioned in trade records, still you
persist.  Why?  Have you developed a biscuit recipe to die for?  Or did you
buy
stock in a MODERN style dutch oven company?

Your dogmatic insistence on an unsupportable interpretations can only
contribute to future mis-information, historical rumor and the re-writing of
history to support a preconceived modernist notion.  It should be incumbent on
you to prove your point, not upon me to disprove it.  Find some real facts or
give it up.

Thank you for reminding me of the baddest woman that ever bawled for beads.  I
hadn't thought of the worthless sl_t in many pleasant years.

>Your old buddy,

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:15:32 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

John,
Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to start
but I will try.
There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You are
right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the
cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I have
noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in
diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For
instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have
stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly
Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron).
When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the
bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar
mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).
Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads
me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed
for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in
the same expedition.
Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock.
My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider
them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time.
(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by
the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would
love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If
wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.
Your old Dogmatic freind!
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 3:11 PM
>

>Ole,
>
>I am not going to let you off the hook on this one with an agreement to
>disagree.  You have nothing to support your contentions and the danger is
>someone else may take your notions as gospel.
>
>At 06:31 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>Brigham Young and Jim Bridger had at best a dislike for each other.
>
>You could say that.  To the day he died Mr. Bridger would have plugged Brigham
>between the eyes if Mr. Bridger had his eyesight, a rifle, and Brigham in
>range.
>
>>Calling a baking oven lined with brick a Dutch Oven is a strange argument
>>and how would such an oven be sold as part of Colters posessions?
>
>I only provided the accepted definitions from a reputable source.  The entire
>definition was repeated from a previous post as no one arguing your point had
>bothered to read it.  The point was made to reiterate the lack of a precise
>definition in the records referenced.  What about the reflector style dutch
>oven you've chosen to totally ignore?  What about the fact the definition
>speaks to cooking meat and not a word about baking?
>
>If a Dutch oven is such a prized and valuable possession, and of the style
>you're determined to justify, why did Coulter's sell for less than his common
>pot at auction?  Thirteen cents meant something back then.
>
>>John, I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed
>>flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co.
>>at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat.
>
>Then where is there any indication of such in trade lists and records of The
>American Fur Co.?  Where are any existing examples?  Where is there any
>proof?
>Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it even plausible.
>
>Where is the evidence to support YOU calling it an iron pot?  The text in the
>book only mentions an iron cover, which says nothing about what the pots are
>made of.  A simple square piece of sheet iron could be called a cover.
>You, by
>saying such, are spreading mis-information and rewriting history.  You don't
>have any facts to support such a statement.  That Catlin felt it necessary to
>specifically mention a cover would indicate to me that a lid may have been
>uncommon.  To specify the covers as iron might indicate the pots were made of
>something else.  We don't and won't ever know exactly what is illustrated.
>Catlin offers nothing to support your contentions.
>
>Catlin was a terrible artist and a worse historian.   We study what he left
>simply because its almost all there is, not because of its excellence or
>accuracy.
>
>I quote:  "...in a row on the ground, were six or eight kettles with iron
>covers on them,"
>
>Six pots are pictured they seem to be in descending size foreground to back,
>Catlin is not noted for accuracy of perspective, it seems he couldn't even
>count, he offers no such perspective in other drawings.  Every pot/kettle he
>illustrates in the book looks pretty much the same.  All we really know from
>Catlin is that they probably had some sort of a pot and for this feast they
>were covered with something made of iron.
>
>The most logical interpretation of what was drawn is a set of nesting sheet
>metal pots.  We have plenty of information to indicate those were readily
>available.  We know some round bottom cast pots were available.  There is
>nothing to support your interpretation of a really crude drawing.
>
>Give it up or show real evidence: what you've found in Catlin is only wishful
>thinking.  No one who has studied pots has ever seen an "old" pot of the type
>you specify, yet you persist.  None are mentioned in trade records, still you
>persist.  Why?  Have you developed a biscuit recipe to die for?  Or did you
>buy
>stock in a MODERN style dutch oven company?
>
>Your dogmatic insistence on an unsupportable interpretations can only
>contribute to future mis-information, historical rumor and the re-writing of
>history to support a preconceived modernist notion.  It should be incumbent on
>you to prove your point, not upon me to disprove it.  Find some real facts or
>give it up.
>
>Thank you for reminding me of the baddest woman that ever bawled for beads.  I
>hadn't thought of the worthless sl_t in many pleasant years.
>
>>Your old buddy,
>
>John...
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:16:38 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Ole,

You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.  Please give it up your
arguments
are becoming ludicrous.

You've entirely changed what you are saying. =20

I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legged
round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago.  I will argue against
modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST=
 EXISTED
during the period.  This has yet to be shown.

If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would be
your personal choice and I would never have said a word.  Now you've made a
public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as
possible. =20

Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern
metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in
contact.  BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! =20

I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! =20

There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid
anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.=
=20
Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot is
tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there.  Part of the=
 restoration
of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and iron
where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem.  The Statue is
much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the problem
when it was built.

There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's=
 pictures
of cook pots.  You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom
pots
and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern=
 camp
oven. =20

As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them and
they're sure to enjoy the experience. =20

John...


At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote:
>John,=20
>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to start
>but I will try.
>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You are
>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the
>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I have
>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in
>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For
>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you=
 have
>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are=
 definatly
>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron).
>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the
>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar
>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).=20
>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads
>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed
>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in
>the same expedition.
>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock.
>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider
>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time.
>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by
>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would
>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If
>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.=20
>Your old Dogmatic freind!
>Ole # 718=20
>----------

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

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