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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, February 23 2000     Volume 01 : Number 472



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Kettles and such
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re Camp Ovens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: museum
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pots, Kettles, etc.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Kettles and such
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?/Wired Top
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Kettles and such
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:26:45 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!

Bill,

Well you made me go look.  Yes he died in November 1813 in Missouri.  The
Dutch
Oven he then owned sold for $3.87 at auction.

Nothing remains to tell us if it was:

1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot roasts,
stews, etc.
2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire.
3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking.

The item preceding it in the auction list is a pot and pot hooks that sold for
$4.00.

I've found Charles Hanson to be right.

John...

At 07:51 AM 2/23/00 -0800, you wrote:
>I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died
>during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were
>auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during
>the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a
>Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he
>agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he
>believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not
>"common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we
>usually see today.
>Bill C

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:58:17 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!

True - but still within the fur trade period.
- -----Original Message-----
From: wayne anderson <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!


>When "John Colter"  died hadn't he returned east and been a farmer for
>several years prior to his death?
>
>Wayne
>
>
>>I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died
>>during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were
>>auctioned off was a dutch oven.ml
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:03:10 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!

The exact description of a Dutch oven from those times is indeed a
contentious issue. The only person I know of who would have had the gumption
and brains to perhaps find it would have been our ex-member Landry. I regret
that he felt he needed to resign from the organization - his input was
invariably valuable and well researched. Even though we did not get along
especially well, I miss what he contributed. In the meantime, we muddle
along.
As for the reference to Paul Revere, I found it years ago when doing some
research and now I have to find the time to find it again - and I will,
eventually.
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!


>Bill,
>
>Well you made me go look.  Yes he died in November 1813 in Missouri.  The
>Dutch
>Oven he then owned sold for $3.87 at auction.
>
>Nothing remains to tell us if it was:
>
>1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot
roasts,
>stews, etc.
>2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire.
>3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking.
>
>The item preceding it in the auction list is a pot and pot hooks that sold
for
>$4.00.
>
>I've found Charles Hanson to be right.
>
>John...
>
>At 07:51 AM 2/23/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died
>>during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were
>>auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during
>>the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a
>>Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he
>>agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he
>>believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not
>>"common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we
>>usually see today.
>>Bill C
>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:08:10 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

my 1998, tenth printing is missing that picture as well; pg 47 has one of a
swivel gun mounted in the prow of a pirogue. i would also like to see the pic
from the previous edition.  thanks,   barney fife

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:32:15 -0600
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Kettles and such

I have searched my archives, (read....stuff) and can find no flat
bottomed foundry made cast kettles, iron, brass or bronze prior to the
Civil war...  I was an iron foundryman for many years and collected
avidly... I have MANY kettles, dating from 1775 to the 1920's.  The
earlier ones are thin, but so are the ones from this century.  The
molding wasn't the trick to making them thin...the metallurgy was.  The
phosphorus level is the main thing we consider when running thin
castings.  The cupola iron used until the advent of electric melting
almost always gave the required phos content to run these very thin
castings.  These are as cast..not white/malleable cast iron. Thickness
in spots is only 1/16 of an inch.  Average is around 3/32 to 1/8, and
rarely thicker.  Many have cracked from frost (with water in them) or
from misadventure..  I dropped my favorite at my shop and it was only
1/16" thick.  Gerry Barker told me the repair technique of dovetailing
across the broken area then expanding annealed brass or copper
'butterflies' to hold the crack shut.  I have never seen this expedient
method of repair on an original, perhaps because no dealers wanted the
'broken' pot to sell it.  I would love to know of an original with this
repair. Let me know.  It sure worked well, that is known...that's also
how I know how thick it was...but you guessed that already.

The bulbous, three-legged kettle associated with colonial kitchens was
the dominant form, and in fact the only form that I have found in the
Rocky Mountain furtrade era.  This sure isn't definitive, and I have
some inquiries out now, looking to document with photos, the flat
bottomed, three-legged form, with or without the 'lipped' lid that is
now known as the 'Dutch Oven'.  My inquiries also look to the naming of
these kettles.  I hope for something soon...next week or less.

I know this doesn't help much, but it was all I could find.
(my 1967 copy of Russel has no reference to pots, cauldrons, cooking,
nor any sketch in the whole darned book of such)

Humbly,
Mike

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:48:13 -0400
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

>I still question the modern camp oven as correct, you nor any one else have
>proven even its existence during the period 1800-1840.  Not to mention its
>presence in the Rocky Mountains.

You are probably correct, John, but there are interesting and intriguing
references from much earlier times which indicate that at least the method
of cooking we associate with a modern Dutch oven was used. Not in the
mountain man period, not in the Rockies, but 50-75 years before.

Ted Franklin Belue did a three part series in Muzzleloader magazine
(Mar/Apr, May/Jun, Jul/Aug '99) detailing the adventures of Nicholas
Cresswell and James Nourse on their travels down the Ohio River from Fort
Pitt to Harrodsburg & Boonesborough, April to July, 1775. Both kept
journals, and Ted used them as the basis for his article, which is quite
good.

Here are the directions from the journal of Nourse for making a fish casserole:

Get "an iron pot with half a pint of water and between each layer, butter,
pepper and salt putting sticks to keep the fish from the bottom and then
put the fire over and under the pot."

An iron pot which is used with coals both over and under it certainly
sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:05:43 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re Camp Ovens

Sorry to jump in on an interesting thread with basically hearsay, but do I
not recall that Lewis and Clark noted the ingenuity of one of their
expedition members, who recyled the burnt out sheet metal remnants of some
kind of folding?? stove or oven into metal for trading to the Indians? Could
this be the L&C "camp oven" which has been noted in this thread (as distinct
from "dutch oven")?
YMOS
Pat Quilter

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:30:48 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy)

I used the "Alaskan" model, in Alaska (duh), for years in kinda deep
> snow, in kinda open country, and liked them but understand they are not
quite
> "period"....and I'm rather round.  I need something else when I talk Capt
> Lahti into takin me on a wander...

Steve,

The good Capt. has trouble passing unscathed through a tight thicket of
lodgepole pin too! <G> I use the Alaskans and need all the surface area they
provide. I am not sure they are any more or less authentic and any
commercially made wood/rawhide shoe today. I suspect they were made and used
up north way back but probably not in the Rockies, though who can say.

I'm a serious bit bigger than Lee but don't carry near as many blankets as
he did. I like wool in the winter and if I go to bed with all my cloths on
including dry warm mocs along with a sheep skin 3/4 pad and some bows
underneath, I find two blankets to be just fine. Others milage may differ
because of differences in metabolizm, etc. It really wasn't that cold up
there the past weekend as Lee pointed out. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
p.s. Yes we did have a save flight and a fun weekend in the warmth of Yuma.



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:54:36 -0600
From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: museum

Thanks for the information,great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:43:31 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots, Kettles, etc.

>From "Museum of the Fur Trade, Quarterly":.."Next in importance was probably
the cast iron pot.  It was economical to produce, but was much heavier and
more brittle than the early brass kettles".
The article ( Vol. 268, No. 1, Spring 1992) speaks almost totally on the use
and proliferation of "sheet iron", "brass", "flat bottomed camp kettles",
wrought iron tinned tea kettles", and the like.
Further; "Some American Fur Company orders show significant variations from
the usual  patterns (of sheet metal kettles-this writer)."
I don't know how definitive you want to make this but it would seem that
cast iron would have a number of strikes against it use besides the logical
and practical.
Do we even want to consider "artistic license" on the part of the
illustrators??????  That's probably a whole different discussion.
John Funk


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Cunningham <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!


> I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died
> during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were
> auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during
> the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a
> Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he
> agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he
> believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not
> "common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we
> usually see today.
> Bill C
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tracy and Roberta Bishnow <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 6:26 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
>
>
> >Ole B. Jensen wrote:
> >>
> >> Bill,
> >> There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a
> Dutch
> >> Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with
his
> >> arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is
> found,
> >> or can anyone?
> >> Ole # 718
> >> ----------
> >> >From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
> >> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
> >> >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM
> >> >
> >>
> >> >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere
> made
> >> >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use
> today.
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
> >> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >> >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM
> >> >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ole-
> >> >>>  I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think
that
> >> >dutch
> >> >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Two Squaws
> >> >>> Hrvn 914
> >> >>>
> >> >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49
> ers, in
> >> >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on,
> again
> >> >being carried in wagons !
> >> >>
> >> >>Later
> >> >>Buck Conner
> >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
> >> >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
> >> >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
> >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
> >> >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
> >> >>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >>
> >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account
> http://www.uswestmail.net
> >> >>
> >> >>----------------------
> >> >>hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----------------------
> >> >hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >I believe the reference is in Rivers of The West, and Meeks
> >says he filled a kettle with liquor and put it on his saddle.
> >I'll have to find the book to be sure.
> >
> >Snakeshot #1593
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:32:39 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kettles and such

Mike,

What do you mean this don't help much? =20

It's lots more information than any of the rest of us have.

I'll look forward to your other findings. =20

John...

At 01:32 PM 2/23/00 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I have searched my archives, (read....stuff) and can find no flat
>bottomed foundry made cast kettles, iron, brass or bronze prior to the
>Civil war...=A0 I was an iron foundryman for many years and collected
>avidly... I have MANY kettles, dating from 1775 to the 1920's.=A0 The
>earlier ones are thin, but so are the ones from this century.=A0 The
>molding wasn't the trick to making them thin...the metallurgy was.=A0 The
>phosphorus level is the main thing we consider when running thin
>castings.=A0 The cupola iron used until the advent of electric melting
>almost always gave the required phos content to run these very thin
>castings.=A0 These are as cast..not white/malleable cast iron. Thickness
>in spots is only 1/16 of an inch.=A0 Average is around 3/32 to 1/8, and
>rarely thicker.=A0 Many have cracked from frost (with water in them) or
>from misadventure..=A0 I dropped my favorite at my shop and it was only
>1/16" thick.=A0 Gerry Barker told me the repair technique of dovetailing
>across the broken area then expanding annealed brass or copper
>'butterflies' to hold the crack shut.=A0 I have never seen this expedient
>method of repair on an original, perhaps because no dealers wanted the
>'broken' pot to sell it.=A0 I would love to know of an original with this
>repair. Let me know.=A0 It sure worked well, that is known...that's also
>how I know how thick it was...but you guessed that already.=A0=20
>
>The bulbous, three-legged kettle associated with colonial kitchens was
>the dominant form, and in fact the only form that I have found in the=20
>Rocky Mountain furtrade era.=A0 This sure isn't definitive, and I have
>some inquiries out now, looking to document with photos, the flat
>bottomed, three-legged form, with or without the 'lipped' lid that is
>now known as the 'Dutch Oven'.=A0 My inquiries also look to the naming of
>these kettles.=A0 I hope for something soon...next week or less.
>
>I know this doesn't help much, but it was all I could find.
>(my 1967 copy of Russel has no reference to pots, cauldrons, cooking,
>nor any sketch in the whole darned book of such)
>
>Humbly,
>Mike
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:34:00 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

At 02:48 PM 2/23/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
>An iron pot which is used with coals both over and under it certainly
>sounds familiar, doesn't it?
>
>Bob
>

Bob,

Yep, it is exactly how I was taught with a rounded top pot as a youth; because
we couldn't afford one of them fancy lipped lid ones.  It is exactly how I've
used my small round bottom, three legged, thin wall, rounded lid, cast iron
pot
on many occasions.  Maybe someone came up with the idea for the lipped top
because of the way people used their pots.

John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 1980 15:21:18 -0800
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

When I first started this hobby, one of the first things I got for myself
was a cast iron cauldron (round bottom, 3 legs).  After a couple of
years, I had learned a lot more, and discovered many, many records of
Canadian fur traders using and trading kettles made from copper, brass,
and tin--and NONE for cast iron of any sort. I was getting pretty unhappy
with my cauldron anyhow (it's _heavy_), and finally found a source (now
gone) for copper kettles in historic pre-1821 style.
Last year, I found a report of an excavation of a Manitoba HBC post, c.
1811. They dug up large shards of a cast iron pot. The large picture in
the book is IDENTICAL to my cauldron, right down to the decorative
lines cast on the outside.
I still hate that cauldron, though. I agree completely with those who say
they were too unwieldy to be routinely taken on trips; I think they were
lugged from post to post,period. I love my copper kettles; they're light
and easy to care for, compared to that darn cauldron.
BTW, Dutch ovens were sometimes called bake-kettles, in Canada at least,
so folks might keep their eyes open for that in their research.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:37:55 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?/Wired Top

John,

Here's a hint.  As a lad I found a tiny wire fence in an ancient packers
campsite.  This fence was so old it was almost memories and dust.  It was made
by twisting a couple pieces of wire into hoops and then twisting little fence
posts every so often to keep the hoops separated about an inch apart.  The hoops
were just the size of a regular pot lid.  I put the dang thing in my pack and
kept it in camp but I puzzled over it for a few months until one day when I
wanted to make some real bread.  Then it struck me exactly what the hoops were
for.  Of course you've guessed by now that the fence was made to keep the coals
on the top of a domed lid pot...what'll they think of next?

Rick--who, by the way, makes excellent bread!



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:00:04 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Angela,
I agree with what you say, Have you seen the drawing by Miller that I
mentioned? (page 135)
it is a Cauldron shaped pot.
I could go on with this discussion, but I think we have come to some
conclusions already and I will list what I am hearing from all of you.
1. There were cast Iron pots used during the fur trade and they were used in
the Mountains.
2. Not all cast iron today is exactly like that of the early 1800's.
3. The camp oven (Dutch oven) like today is in dispute as to it being in the
mountains during the fur trade.
4. The art of cooking with coals on top and underneath cast iron pots is
older than the 1800 to 1845 period.
So now the question in my mind is? what did Paul Revere's oven look like?
and what is the drawing on page 241 of Catlins book showing and discribing?
if not a flat bottomed flat lidded cast iron pot, If anyone has seen the
drawing other than me please come forword.
Anyway this has all been fun and sure has been lively, I don't think John
has been this keen on anything since his honeymoon (ha ha) "I couldn't help
myself".

YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Sat, Feb 23, 1980, 4:21 PM
>

>When I first started this hobby, one of the first things I got for myself
>was a cast iron cauldron (round bottom, 3 legs).  After a couple of
>years, I had learned a lot more, and discovered many, many records of
>Canadian fur traders using and trading kettles made from copper, brass,
>and tin--and NONE for cast iron of any sort. I was getting pretty unhappy
>with my cauldron anyhow (it's _heavy_), and finally found a source (now
>gone) for copper kettles in historic pre-1821 style.
>Last year, I found a report of an excavation of a Manitoba HBC post, c.
>1811. They dug up large shards of a cast iron pot. The large picture in
>the book is IDENTICAL to my cauldron, right down to the decorative
>lines cast on the outside.
>I still hate that cauldron, though. I agree completely with those who say
>they were too unwieldy to be routinely taken on trips; I think they were
>lugged from post to post,period. I love my copper kettles; they're light
>and easy to care for, compared to that darn cauldron.
>BTW, Dutch ovens were sometimes called bake-kettles, in Canada at least,
>so folks might keep their eyes open for that in their research.
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:09:35 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kettles and such

Mike,
Good work, let us all know what you find.
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
>To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>,
"[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Kettles and such
>Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 12:32 PM
>

>
>I have searched my archives, (read....stuff) and can find no flat
>bottomed foundry made cast kettles, iron, brass or bronze prior to the
>Civil war...  I was an iron foundryman for many years and collected
>avidly... I have MANY kettles, dating from 1775 to the 1920's.  The
>earlier ones are thin, but so are the ones from this century.  The
>molding wasn't the trick to making them thin...the metallurgy was.  The
>phosphorus level is the main thing we consider when running thin
>castings.  The cupola iron used until the advent of electric melting
>almost always gave the required phos content to run these very thin
>castings.  These are as cast..not white/malleable cast iron. Thickness
>in spots is only 1/16 of an inch.  Average is around 3/32 to 1/8, and
>rarely thicker.  Many have cracked from frost (with water in them) or
>from misadventure..  I dropped my favorite at my shop and it was only
>1/16" thick.  Gerry Barker told me the repair technique of dovetailing
>across the broken area then expanding annealed brass or copper
>'butterflies' to hold the crack shut.  I have never seen this expedient
>method of repair on an original, perhaps because no dealers wanted the
>'broken' pot to sell it.  I would love to know of an original with this
>repair. Let me know.  It sure worked well, that is known...that's also
>how I know how thick it was...but you guessed that already.
>
>The bulbous, three-legged kettle associated with colonial kitchens was
>the dominant form, and in fact the only form that I have found in the
>Rocky Mountain furtrade era.  This sure isn't definitive, and I have
>some inquiries out now, looking to document with photos, the flat
>bottomed, three-legged form, with or without the 'lipped' lid that is
>now known as the 'Dutch Oven'.  My inquiries also look to the naming of
>these kettles.  I hope for something soon...next week or less.
>
>I know this doesn't help much, but it was all I could find.
>(my 1967 copy of Russel has no reference to pots, cauldrons, cooking,
>nor any sketch in the whole darned book of such)
>
>Humbly,
>Mike
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:31:53 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

John,
I started this subject to get some feed back, from what I see is a large
group of knowlegable individuals.
Brigham Young and Jim Bridger had at best a dislike for each other.
I don't know where the State of Utah gets it's information so I won't use
them to prove any point, at this time.
Calling a baking oven lined with brick a Dutch Oven is a strange argument
and how would such an oven be sold as part of Colters posessions?
I don't think anyone is trying to spread mis-information or rewrite history=
,
we just want to know.
John, I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed
flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co.
at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat.
Your old buddy, Ole
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 11:31 AM
>

>Walt Foster,
>
>Page 45 =3D text, p.46 =3D text & swivel gun illustrations, p.47 =3D text &
>sketch of
>swivel gun in prow of pirogue, p. 48 =3D text, p.49 =3D text, p.50 =3D text.=A0 No
>camp
>scene with or without a pot on the 20 pages either side of page 46 or 48.=A0
>Didn't bother to thumb through the whole book again.
>
>I have no idea of what kind of a #1 & #6 pot you are talking about.=A0 You h=
ave
>not provided a clear description and your reference doesn't exist.
>
>I've not said there was no cast iron, I have said I don't think there was =
much
>and feel I'm on pretty solid ground and in good company maintaining that
>position.=A0
>
>I still question the modern camp oven as correct, you nor any one else hav=
e
>proven even its existence during the period 1800-1840.  Not to mention its
>presence in the Rocky Mountains.
>
>I have hoped whomever made the Paul Revere statement would elucidate.  Fro=
m
>the
>damp dark corners of my faulty memory I seem to recollect that Revere's
>contribution had to do with the self-basting lid and perhaps the pouring
>lip on
>the side of the pot.  That would indicate that what Lodge calls a "Dutch O=
ven"
>is what he improved upon and what is called a "Camp Oven" is something els=
e.
>As I can't document it I've refrained from bringing it up.
>
>Ole contacted me a month or so ago with this question the first time.  I
>didn't
>pay it much mind and gave him some off the cuff answer.  I am being
>dogmatic in
>demanding more and better information on this list because of the
>misconceptions you've already accepted as gospel.  Great historical rumors=
 get
>started this way.  A preconceived notion mixed with a little creative
>interpretation and you're on your way to obfuscation.
>
>The information on the Official Utah State Pot page offers no source refer=
ence
>and sounds like the kind of fluff written by those who really don't know.
>There are some folks in Utah who will tell you with a straight face that J=
im
>Bridger and Brigham Young were friends.  Don't get me wrong I like Utah an=
d
>the
>people in it, but, there are some so embarrassed by their past they would
>revise history.
>
>Who ever said you had to rendered a whole bear at one time?=A0 If you are li=
ving
>where all you need is a little, why would you render a lot?=A0 What happened=
 25
>years after the period of interest isn't relevant.  Perhaps one of the lar=
ge
>companies or a permanent fort or trading post had a very large brass, copp=
er,
>sheet iron or cast iron pot capable of rendering a whole bear or scalding =
a
>whole hog at once.  No small trapping party packed such a critter!  Not to
>mention containers to package all that rendered fat in.
>
>The link provided to Hopewell Furnace may offer a way to find out more.
>
>I'm satisfied that the modern camp oven is NOT correct.  PROVE me wrong no=
 one
>has yet proved it right, nor even made a substantial case for it.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 01:43 AM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of th=
e
>>Mountain Men"
>>published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Kno=
pf
>>contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just
>>thumbed through every page.
>>What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?=A0 It can be rendere=
d
>>in any pot or skillet.
>>John...
>>
>>Hello John, sure it does.=A0 Maybe around page 46 or 48.=A0 It is in the
>>foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier.=A0 This i=
s
>>where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or
>>skillet, John.=A0 Consider the amount of bear?=A0 I think pots like the one
>>pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used.=A0 T=
his
>>pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to Paul
>>Revere.=A0 Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus pin=
t
>>results.=A0 Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time frame o=
f
>>our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man to=
 do
>>it.=A0 It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of busin=
ess
>>a few years after the partnership developed.=A0 They got one dollar a pint.
>>
>>It is late and I am tired.=A0 I will get back to you with more of your post=
.
>>It is more than I can digest tonight.=A0 Thanks, Walt
>>Park City, Montana
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info:
><http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.co=
m/
>~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:28:25 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  =
Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the =
wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" =
on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the =
fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life =
considering how thin they apparently were.
John  Funk

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical =
standpoint. =20
Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the=20
wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the =
"pot" on=20
the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the =

fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short =
life=20
considering how thin they apparently were.</DIV>
<DIV>John  Funk</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:06:55 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: February 23, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

>The link provided to Hopewell Furnace may offer a way to find out more.


Here is another source somebody may care to look into:

DUTCH OVENS CHRONICLED - John Ragsdale
105 Pages
Dutch ovens, as we know them today were developed in the early 18th Century.
This works ia a summary of the historical service of the Dutch ovens,
complete with photos to identify time periods of specific Dutch oven styles,
and their use. This is a must have reference for the Dutch oven enthusiast.
$18.50


Also, this fella is a bonafide cast iron cookware expert (no kiddin) maybe
he can tell ya if they were used in the rocky mountain fur trade.
www.panman.com

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys. I always enjoy a spirited
debate.
northwoods





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