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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, February 23 2000     Volume 01 : Number 471



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá MtMan-List: museum
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: museum
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dutch ovens
-áááááá Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:59:32 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

John,
The drawing on page 241 of Catlins book has a writen discription about
preseadings and Catlin identafies the pot's as having Iron lids. On page 13=
5
of Millers book it shows a pot bellied Cauldron with legs sitting on the
ground and identafies the group he is with as the American Fur Company. Joh=
n
maybe you and I will just have to agree to disagree. but this interaction
has definatly been enjoyable. I still like you anyway, your old freind Ole.
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Tue, Feb 22, 2000, 11:20 AM
>

>Ole,
>
>I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during the
>period.  I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains pr=
ior
>to 1840.
>
>I question whether or not the type of "Dutch Oven" you started this discus=
sion
>about existed at all.
>
>Catlin's drawings DO NOT "clearly" show cast iron pots.  He only really dr=
aws
>one pot type.  Your "best" example (along with all the others you
>mentioned) on
>page 241 looks much more like a set of nested sheet metal pots set out on =
the
>ground.  Brass, copper or sheet iron cannot be determined from the simple
>drawings; they are typical of the shape of nested pots of the period.
>There is
>nothing that indicates they are of cast iron.  Based on the absolute lack =
of
>evidence in Catlin's work, I didn't bother to dig out Miller.
>
>There are many "old" examples of round bottom cast iron pots, we can ident=
ify
>the differences of manufacturing techniques and style in 18th and 19th cen=
tury
>cast iron tea kettles.  There are no "old" specimens I've seen, or seen
>reference to, of the type of Dutch Oven you describe.  The differences in =
old
>and new cast iron are much more than the thickness of the casting.
>
>I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what Lodge Manufacturing calls =
a
>"Camp Oven" is a modern style pot with no relevance to the Rocky Mountain =
Fur
>Trade prior to 1840.
>
>My evidence?  Primarily a lack of evidence.  If the phrase "Dutch Oven" is
>encountered in journals or records; to what does it refer?  I have shown a=
t
>least three distinctly different definitions for "Dutch Oven".  A 5 line
>drawing by Catlin really doesn't prove anything other than some sort of po=
t
>was
>there, maybe.  I'm less convinced than when you started this thread.
>
>When I was riding with Pawnee and The Walrus we carried a small cast iron
>round
>bottom lidded pot with us.  You should remember the pot you've eaten from =
it.
>It has thinner walls than any old ones I've seen.  Not much trouble for a
>party
>to pack.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 07:59 AM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>John,
>>The drawing's of Catlin and Miller were made during the fur trade period.=
 We
>>can disagree about the shape of cookwear, However the drawings clearly sh=
ow
>>that Cast Iron pots were widely used. I have examined a few old pot's and
>>have noticed one big diference,the old stuff is much thinner.
>>I also agree with a lot of you, that I would not take a cast iron pot on =
a
>>treck or on some short term horse camp's but I would use them.
>>One thing I have come to realize is that with more information comming ou=
t
>>all the time, the things that I once thought were writen in stone "arnt" =
and
>>I am forced to hold on to my idea's loosely.
>>I realy enjoy the discussions on this list, only due to the thing's that =
I
>>have learned from all the diferent discussions.
>>
>>Aux Aliments De Pays
>>Ole #718
>>
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <[e-mail]>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:13:16 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?


Ole, I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during
the
period.  I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains
prior
to 1840.  John...

Ole, has drawn more than you into this discussion about cast iron camp ovens
John Kramer.  Bill Cunningham mentioned Coulter for one.  I mention
references to the Lewis and Clark extended camping trip and Tools, Traps and
Firearms of the Mountain Man.  I do not remember the page the figure is on,
but it is in the foreground of a camp scene.  I do remember the shape and
could not have been more delighted to see how nicely it functioned in the #6
and #1 size.

One thing not taken into consideration during the 1800-1850 range of camp
gear available and used by the American Mountain Men is bear grease.  I
submit to the list based upon the 5 month long winter camp attended by the
likes of Jim Bridger, Kit Carson and Joe Meeks that both types of camp ovens
were employed within the large group of American Mountain Men who were
gathered here during the winter of 1836-1837 up to the end of February.
This was a big camp which included wives and children.  I will bet Dutch
oven of the Revere type and the one illustraited in Russell's book Tools,
Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Men were in this camp.  This is a blind
bet, same as yours.

My experience with copper, brass, tin or sheet iron has been miserable to
say the least.  Plain functional camp tools like the Paul Revere design
produced by Lodge Mfg and others along with the cast iron pot illustrated in
Tools, Trap and Firearms of the Mountain Men do the work and save much time
cooking and cleaning over other materials talked about above.  While your
out on the limb regarding what Lodge Mfg. "calls a "Camp Oven" is a modern
style pot with no relevance to the Rock Mountain Fur Trade prior to 1840."
Except it is a copy of the Revere design complete with biscuit lid and is
the American version of a camp oven or Dutch oven in relation to The America
n Mountain Men engaged in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade.  I will bet a Dutch
oven came up the Yellowstone to be put to use at the Fort Manual Lisa
Trading Post at the mouth of the Bighorn River.  These River Bottom traders
and trappers were well equipped to explore the wealth of the Beaver realm
described by Captain Clark another user of camp ovens in what is now called
Montana..  I think the biscuit lid is what makes the camp oven an oven other
wise it is just a covered pot made as an inside the oven cooking piece.

Walt
Park City, Montana


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:21:44 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Walt Foster,

My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men"
published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf
contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just=
 thumbed
through every page. =20

Bill's mention of John Coulter concerned the items in his estate, long after
his Rocky Mountain days.=20

Calling Lewis & Clark's journey of exploration & discovery an "extended
camping
trip" seems a little high handed.  Is there something in their journals that
documents a "Camp Oven"?

Somehow the leap has been made, by you, that the "Camp Oven" is the design
improved by Paul Revere.  A claim has been made that Paul Revere improved=
 the
design of a "Dutch Oven" but nothing has been forthcoming to document or
identify exactly what is meant by that.  For all we presently know, by the
information presented here, that could have been a simple reflector oven
unrelated to pots; for which I do have documentation as a proper usage of=
 the
term "Dutch Oven".  I have asked for further information regarding Paul=
 Revere
and Dutch Ovens, it has not yet been forthcoming. =20

I make no claim that sheet metal pots are equal to or superior to cast iron
for
cooking.  Where are the trade lists of cast iron pots?  Trade lists are
replete
with nesting pots.  I've not said cast iron wasn't used.  I have said I've
seen
no evidence that the raised rim lid, shallow flat bottom, legged pot=
 commonly
known as a "Dutch Oven" today and sold under the label "Camp Oven" isn't too
modern for our period of interest. =20

I do think cast iron was a minor part of the trade because the traders could
carry maybe up to a dozen or so nesting pots in place of one cast iron pot;
read bigger profits.  When everything had to be transported across hundreds=
 of
miles every pound counted and was charged for at mountain prices.

You've now introduced a new term "biscuit lid" which I've not encountered
elsewhere and for which you provide no source. =20

Ole & I have been arguing about stuff for about 25 years sometimes we argue
just to argue, sometimes it helps us to think, sometimes its just for fun. =
=20

Declaring something correct has little to do with opinion, it does have to=
 do
with punctilious attention to detail.  Where is your evidence for the claims
you make? =20

What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?  It can be rendered=
 in
any pot or skillet. =20

John...


At 06:13 PM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>
>
>Ole, I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during
>the
>period.=A0 I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains
>prior
>to 1840.=A0 John...
>
>Ole, has drawn more than you into this discussion about cast iron camp=
 ovens
>John Kramer.=A0 Bill Cunningham mentioned Coulter for one.=A0 I mention
>references to the Lewis and Clark extended camping trip and Tools, Traps=
 and
>Firearms of the Mountain Man.=A0 I do not remember the page the figure is=
 on,
>but it is in the foreground of a camp scene.=A0 I do remember the shape and
>could not have been more delighted to see how nicely it functioned in the=
 #6
>and #1 size.
>
>One thing not taken into consideration during the 1800-1850 range of camp
>gear available and used by the American Mountain Men is bear grease.=A0 I
>submit to the list based upon the 5 month long winter camp attended by the
>likes of Jim Bridger, Kit Carson and Joe Meeks that both types of camp=
 ovens
>were employed within the large group of American Mountain Men who were
>gathered here during the winter of 1836-1837 up to the end of February.
>This was a big camp which included wives and children.=A0 I will bet Dutch
>oven of the Revere type and the one illustraited in Russell's book Tools,
>Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Men were in this camp.=A0 This is a=
 blind
>bet, same as yours.
>
>My experience with copper, brass, tin or sheet iron has been miserable to
>say the least.=A0 Plain functional camp tools like the Paul Revere design
>produced by Lodge Mfg and others along with the cast iron pot illustrated=
 in
>Tools, Trap and Firearms of the Mountain Men do the work and save much time
>cooking and cleaning over other materials talked about above.=A0 While your
>out on the limb regarding what Lodge Mfg. "calls a "Camp Oven" is a modern
>style pot with no relevance to the Rock Mountain Fur Trade prior to 1840."
>Except it is a copy of the Revere design complete with biscuit lid and is
>the American version of a camp oven or Dutch oven in relation to The=
 America
>n Mountain Men engaged in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade.=A0 I will bet a=
 Dutch
>oven came up the Yellowstone to be put to use at the Fort Manual Lisa
>Trading Post at the mouth of the Bighorn River.=A0 These River Bottom=
 traders
>and trappers were well equipped to explore the wealth of the Beaver realm
>described by Captain Clark another user of camp ovens in what is now called
>Montana..=A0 I think the biscuit lid is what makes the camp oven an oven=
 other
>wise it is just a covered pot made as an inside the oven cooking piece.
>
>Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:16:16 -0700
From: "Norman Anderson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

I don't know about a "Camp Oven" in the Lewis and Clark Journals, but
Private Joseph Whitehouse and Sergeant John Ordway both specifically
mentions caching at least one "dutch oven" along with other goods at the
mouth of the Marias River on June 11, 1805.

Norman Anderson

- ----- Original Message -----
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?


> Walt Foster,
>
> My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain
Men"
> published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A.
Knopf
> contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just
thumbed
> through every page.
>
> Bill's mention of John Coulter concerned the items in his estate, long
after
> his Rocky Mountain days.
>
> Calling Lewis & Clark's journey of exploration & discovery an "extended
> camping
> trip" seems a little high handed.  Is there something in their journals
that
> documents a "Camp Oven"?



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:43:49 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the
Mountain Men"
published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf
contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just
thumbed through every page.
What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?  It can be rendered
in any pot or skillet.
John...

Hello John, sure it does.  Maybe around page 46 or 48.  It is in the
foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier.  This is
where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or
skillet, John.  Consider the amount of bear?  I think pots like the one
pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used.  This
pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to Paul
Revere.  Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus pint
results.  Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time frame of
our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man to do
it.  It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of business
a few years after the partnership developed.  They got one dollar a pint.

It is late and I am tired.  I will get back to you with more of your post.
It is more than I can digest tonight.  Thanks, Walt
Park City, Montana




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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:08:36 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

My copy is the 1992, eigthth printing, and doesn't show such a scene on =
those pages.  Your copy is apparantly another edition.  Could you scan =
the page and make it available?
Lanney Ratcliff

- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Walt Foster <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?


> Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of =
the
> Mountain Men"
> published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. =
Knopf
> contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just
> thumbed through every page.
> What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?  It can be =
rendered
> in any pot or skillet.
> John...
>=20
> Hello John, sure it does.  Maybe around page 46 or 48.  It is in the
> foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier.  =
This is
> where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or
> skillet, John.  Consider the amount of bear?  I think pots like the =
one
> pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used. =
 This
> pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to =
Paul
> Revere.  Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus =
pint
> results.  Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time =
frame of
> our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man =
to do
> it.  It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of =
business
> a few years after the partnership developed.  They got one dollar a =
pint.
>=20
> It is late and I am tired.  I will get back to you with more of your =
post.
> It is more than I can digest tonight.  Thanks, Walt
> Park City, Montana
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:26:25 -0600
From: Tracy and Roberta Bishnow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!

Ole B. Jensen wrote:
>
> Bill,
> There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch
> Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his
> arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found,
> or can anyone?
> Ole # 718
> ----------
> >From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
> >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM
> >
>
> >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made
> >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM
> >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
> >
> >
> >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Ole-
> >>>  I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that
> >dutch
> >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
> >>>
> >>> Two Squaws
> >>> Hrvn 914
> >>>
> >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in
> >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again
> >being carried in wagons !
> >>
> >>Later
> >>Buck Conner
> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
> >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
> >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
> >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
> >>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> >>
> >>----------------------
> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
I believe the reference is in Rivers of The West, and Meeks
says he filled a kettle with liquor and put it on his saddle.
I'll have to find the book to be sure.

Snakeshot #1593

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:51:54 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!

I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died
during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were
auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during
the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a
Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he
agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he
believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not
"common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we
usually see today.
Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: Tracy and Roberta Bishnow <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!


>Ole B. Jensen wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>> There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a
Dutch
>> Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his
>> arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is
found,
>> or can anyone?
>> Ole # 718
>> ----------
>> >From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>> >To: <[e-mail]>
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>> >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM
>> >
>>
>> >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere
made
>> >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use
today.
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM
>> >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>> >
>> >
>> >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Ole-
>> >>>  I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that
>> >dutch
>> >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
>> >>>
>> >>> Two Squaws
>> >>> Hrvn 914
>> >>>
>> >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49
ers, in
>> >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on,
again
>> >being carried in wagons !
>> >>
>> >>Later
>> >>Buck Conner
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
>> >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
>> >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
>> >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>> >>                   Aux Aliments de Pays!
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>
>> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account
http://www.uswestmail.net
>> >>
>> >>----------------------
>> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>I believe the reference is in Rivers of The West, and Meeks
>says he filled a kettle with liquor and put it on his saddle.
>I'll have to find the book to be sure.
>
>Snakeshot #1593
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:56:45 -0600
From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: museum

Was  wondering just how to get to the Museum of Fur Trade.  Thanks,
donnie


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:02:28 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: museum

 The museum is located three miles east of Chadron, Nebraska, on U.S. =
Highway 20.
 http://www.furtrade.org/

To join the museum, send your name, address, and payment to the Museum =
of the Fur Trade, 6321 Highway 20, Chadron, Nebraska, 69337 USA=20

The museum is open from 8:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M. every day from Memorial =
Day through September 30. Admission is $2.50 for adults (18 and over) =
and children are free. Visits during the winter season are not =
recommended; however, many school groups and interested individuals =
arrange for visits during the fall and spring portions of the closed =
season. Please call for an appointment, [phone] or Email =
[e-mail].

Hope this helps.  This is the best $10 you will ever spend.
cordially
Lanney Ratcliff

- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Don Neighbors <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 9:56 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: museum


> Was  wondering just how to get to the Museum of Fur Trade.  Thanks,
> donnie
>=20
>=20
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> hist_text list info: =
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:00:49 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch ovens

FYI,

There is a Nat'l Park in Pennsylvania called Hopewell Furnace that cast iron products from the late 1700's to later 1800's.  Their home page is;
http://www.nps.gov/hofu/newweb/home.html
There is a picture there of several cast iron pots.  Perhaps a contact with the park Supt. can get some historical data.

Ben

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:28:04 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

[e-mail] wrote:
>In addition to the Dutch oven another style is shown in the Tools Traps and
>Firearms of the Mountain Man by Russell.  This is a round oven.  Works
>super.  I have a #1 and #6.  Great camp gear.

1)     I looked through my copy of "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain
Men" by Russel, U of NM Press, and could not find any pots or Dutch Ovens.
Is that the book you were referring to?  Did Russell publish a similar book
with the title you referred to?

2) I realizeds that some may not have access to the web pages part of the
internet, so I have snipped the mountain man part of the reference to Dutch
Ovens on http://www.state.ut.us/about/oven.html

This reference talks, in part, about the flat top with rim version:

"Explorers like Jim Bridger and Peter Skene Ogden used the kettle versions
on the trail but appreciated the standard three-legged, flat top with a rim
version together with its "lite" breads, tasty fruit cobblers and delicious
stews when they wintered in. Mountain men who rendezvoused in Cache Valley
in the 1820's used them and Osborne Russell in his Journal of a Trapper
writes about how much they appreciated having some greasy, grizzly bear meat
to cook because the cast-iron pots needed re-seasoning after boiling roots
for meals the previous eleven days."

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:15:07 PST
From: "wayne anderson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!

When "John Colter"  died hadn't he returned east and been a farmer for
several years prior to his death?

Wayne


>I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died
>during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were
>auctioned off was a dutch oven.ml

______________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:09:17 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

No argument.=A0 My question remains: exactly to what did they refer?

John...



At 11:16 PM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't know about a "Camp Oven" in the Lewis and Clark Journals, but
>Private Joseph Whitehouse and Sergeant John Ordway both specifically
>mentions caching at least one "dutch oven" along with other goods at the
>mouth of the Marias River on June 11, 1805.
>
>Norman Anderson
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:21 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>
>
>> Walt Foster,
>>
>> My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain
>Men"
>> published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A.
>Knopf
>> contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just
>thumbed
>> through every page.
>>
>> Bill's mention of John Coulter concerned the items in his estate, long
>after
>> his Rocky Mountain days.
>>
>> Calling Lewis & Clark's journey of exploration & discovery an "extended
>> camping
>> trip" seems a little high handed.=A0 Is there something in their journals
>that
>> documents a "Camp Oven"?
>
>
>
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>hist_text list info:
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~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:31:38 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?

Walt Foster,

Page 45 =3D text, p.46 =3D text & swivel gun illustrations, p.47 =3D text &
sketch of
swivel gun in prow of pirogue, p. 48 =3D text, p.49 =3D text, p.50 =3D=
 text.=A0 No
camp
scene with or without a pot on the 20 pages either side of page 46 or 48.=A0
Didn't bother to thumb through the whole book again.

I have no idea of what kind of a #1 & #6 pot you are talking about.=A0 You=
 have
not provided a clear description and your reference doesn't exist.

I've not said there was no cast iron, I have said I don't think there was=
 much
and feel I'm on pretty solid ground and in good company maintaining that
position.=A0=20

I still question the modern camp oven as correct, you nor any one else have
proven even its existence during the period 1800-1840.  Not to mention its
presence in the Rocky Mountains.

I have hoped whomever made the Paul Revere statement would elucidate.  From
the
damp dark corners of my faulty memory I seem to recollect that Revere's
contribution had to do with the self-basting lid and perhaps the pouring
lip on
the side of the pot.  That would indicate that what Lodge calls a "Dutch=
 Oven"
is what he improved upon and what is called a "Camp Oven" is something else.=
=20
As I can't document it I've refrained from bringing it up.

Ole contacted me a month or so ago with this question the first time.  I
didn't
pay it much mind and gave him some off the cuff answer.  I am being
dogmatic in
demanding more and better information on this list because of the
misconceptions you've already accepted as gospel.  Great historical rumors=
 get
started this way.  A preconceived notion mixed with a little creative
interpretation and you're on your way to obfuscation. =20

The information on the Official Utah State Pot page offers no source=
 reference
and sounds like the kind of fluff written by those who really don't know.=20
There are some folks in Utah who will tell you with a straight face that Jim
Bridger and Brigham Young were friends.  Don't get me wrong I like Utah and
the
people in it, but, there are some so embarrassed by their past they would
revise history. =20

Who ever said you had to rendered a whole bear at one time?=A0 If you are=
 living
where all you need is a little, why would you render a lot?=A0 What happened=
 25
years after the period of interest isn't relevant.  Perhaps one of the large
companies or a permanent fort or trading post had a very large brass,=
 copper,
sheet iron or cast iron pot capable of rendering a whole bear or scalding a
whole hog at once.  No small trapping party packed such a critter!  Not to
mention containers to package all that rendered fat in.

The link provided to Hopewell Furnace may offer a way to find out more. =20

I'm satisfied that the modern camp oven is NOT correct.  PROVE me wrong no=
 one
has yet proved it right, nor even made a substantial case for it. =20

John...


At 01:43 AM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the
>Mountain Men"
>published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf
>contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just
>thumbed through every page.
>What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?=A0 It can be=
 rendered
>in any pot or skillet.
>John...
>
>Hello John, sure it does.=A0 Maybe around page 46 or 48.=A0 It is in the
>foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier.=A0 This=
 is
>where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or
>skillet, John.=A0 Consider the amount of bear?=A0 I think pots like the one
>pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used.=A0=
 This
>pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to Paul
>Revere.=A0 Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus=
 pint
>results.=A0 Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time frame=
 of
>our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man to=
 do
>it.=A0 It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of=
 business
>a few years after the partnership developed.=A0 They got one dollar a pint.
>
>It is late and I am tired.=A0 I will get back to you with more of your=
 post.
>It is more than I can digest tonight.=A0 Thanks, Walt
>Park City, Montana
>
>
>
>
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>hist_text list info:
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~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

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