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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #470
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Tuesday, February 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 470
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: MTMAN_list: A SHORT WINTERS JAUNT_ SNOWSHOES
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dutch Oven's!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
-áááááá MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List -- Mr. Bridger
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dutch ovens?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:06:03 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
http://pc38.ve.weber.k12.ut.us/ValleyIntranet/Pioneering/pot.htm
says that none other than Bridger and Ogden used dutch ovens! That page
also refers to other mountain men users.
Hoo Boy, here we go. If this proves to be true, should we leave our
preconceived notions out of the discussions? I have e-mailed the author to
ask for references.
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:55:00 EST
From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" <wolftracker55@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MTMAN_list: A SHORT WINTERS JAUNT_ SNOWSHOES
GREETINGS FROM THE LAKE REGION(SUPERIOR). A GREAT SOURCE FOR SNOW-SHOE
FRAMES IS WILCOX&WILLIAMS. www.snowshoe.com THEY MAKE GREAT ASH FRAMES IN
MANY STYLES. YOU CAN GET COMPLETE SHOES, KITS OR JUST FRAMES. I STRUNG MY
OWN OBJIBWA'S LAST WINTER. WILCOX AND WILLIAMS, PO BOX 24316, EDINA, MN
55424
DAVE ALBAUGH
AUX ALIMENTS DE PAYS
END
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:33:24 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Oven's!
The following is a partial list of why I think the Dutch Oven was used.
" From= George Catlins drawings
Titled= "Letters and Notes on the North American Indians"
Page 143 there is a drawing of a pot on a tripod. (Mandan Village 1833)
Page 163 " " " " " " " " (Mandan Village 1833)
The best example is on Page 241 Describes a feast of dog held by the Teton
Sioux for the American Fur Co. in 1833. The drawing shows 6 ovens cooking on
the ground next to a pole, this style of use by a highly nomatic tribe would
fit with a dutch oven.
Page 244 shows a pot sitting on the ground.
Page 342 shows a pot (Sok & Fox tribe)
" From= "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller"
Page 24 Shows a pot on a tripod (Shoshoni tribe )
Page 34 Shows a Cauldron on a tripod.
Page 49 Shows a tripod with a pot hanging below.
Page 94 Shows a tripod with something hanging.
Page 135 Shows what can only be a cast iron Cauldron.
Page 142 Shows Cauldron hanging on tripod.
Page 174 Shows Pot on tripod.
Page 177 Shows Cauldron hanging on tripod.
Page 197 Shows Cauldron hanging on tripod in a Anglo camp.
These drawings indicate the extensive use of cast iron cauldrons,possibly
copper,brass and tin pots and Dutch Ovens and indicates to me that they were
highly traded.
Aux Aliments De Pays
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 7:34 AM
>
>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote:
>
>>
>> Ole-
>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that dutch
>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
>>
>> Two Squaws
>> Hrvn 914
>>
>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in
>wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again
>being carried in wagons !
>
>Later
>Buck Conner
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:35:07 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Ole,
It might be helpful if you first define what you mean by a "Dutch" oven. =
Off
the top of my head I can think of three distinctly different lidded pots
called
Dutch Ovens. As all are of 20th Century manufacture which one did Paul=
Revere
improve? Flat-lipped or rounded-unlipped lids, shallow sides, steep sloped
sides, legged bottoms, what are you talking about?
John...
At 08:14 PM 2/20/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello the camp,
>Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to know thoughts on Dutch
>Ovens and there use during the fur trade (1830 to 1845)?. I belive they=
were
>used in conjunction with other iron pots.
>-----------------
>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>Ole
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:42:37 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
u-bet ya
Lets have some meaningful discussion. I have been wrong before, but I have
been right a few times too. Ole
- ----------
>From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 1:06 PM
>
>http://pc38.ve.weber.k12.ut.us/ValleyIntranet/Pioneering/pot.htm
>
>says that none other than Bridger and Ogden used dutch ovens! That page
>also refers to other mountain men users.
>
>Hoo Boy, here we go. If this proves to be true, should we leave our
>preconceived notions out of the discussions? I have e-mailed the author to
>ask for references.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:12:03 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
The reference to the mountain man Dutch Ovens comes from the official state
of Utah web page:
http://www.state.ut.us/about/oven.html
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:50:18 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
Bill,
There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch
Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his
arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found,
or can anyone?
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham)
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM
>
>"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made
>modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>
>
>>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ole-
>>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that
>dutch
>>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
>>>
>>> Two Squaws
>>> Hrvn 914
>>>
>>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in
>wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again
>being carried in wagons !
>>
>>Later
>>Buck Conner
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
>>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
>>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
>>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:58:42 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Hi! John,
I knew if I kicked a few bushes you would eventualy say something. ha ha.
Simmilar to todays Dutch Oven, that is with tapered sides, flat top with a
rim and with leggs.
Yes I know Cauldrens have leggs but the top is more round and no rim.
Note: see Bill's comment about Paul Revere.
- ----------
>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 3:35 PM
>
>Ole,
>
>It might be helpful if you first define what you mean by a "Dutch" oven. =
Off
>the top of my head I can think of three distinctly different lidded pots
>called
>Dutch Ovens. As all are of 20th Century manufacture which one did Paul Re=
vere
>improve? Flat-lipped or rounded-unlipped lids, shallow sides, steep slope=
d
>sides, legged bottoms, what are you talking about?
>
>John...
>
>
>At 08:14 PM 2/20/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hello the camp,
>>Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to know thoughts on Dutch
>>Ovens and there use during the fur trade (1830 to 1845)?. I belive they w=
ere
>>used in conjunction with other iron pots.
>>-----------------
>>Aux Aliments de Pays!
>>Ole
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info:
><http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.co=
m/
>~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:03:03 -0800
From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
It may be of interest to note that when John Colter died, among his effects
that were auctioned off, was a dutch oven that sold for, I think, 7.00, the
equivalent of a week's pay.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
>http://pc38.ve.weber.k12.ut.us/ValleyIntranet/Pioneering/pot.htm
>
>says that none other than Bridger and Ogden used dutch ovens! That page
>also refers to other mountain men users.
>
>Hoo Boy, here we go. If this proves to be true, should we leave our
>preconceived notions out of the discussions? I have e-mailed the author to
>ask for references.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:04:40 -0800
From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
It'll take me a while. Right now I'm up to my eyeballs in stuff.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ole B. Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:51 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
>Bill,
>There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch
>Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his
>arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found,
>or can anyone?
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham)
>>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM
>>
>
>>"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere
made
>>modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use
today.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>>Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM
>>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ole-
>>>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that
>>dutch
>>>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period?
>>>>
>>>> Two Squaws
>>>> Hrvn 914
>>>>
>>>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers,
in
>>wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again
>>being carried in wagons !
>>>
>>>Later
>>>Buck Conner
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~
>>>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~
>>>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
>>>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
>>> Aux Aliments de Pays!
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
>>>
>>>----------------------
>>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:43:33 EST
From: Hawkengun@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven
In addition to the Dutch oven another style is shown in the Tools Traps and
Firearms of the Mountain Man by Russell. This is a round oven. Works
super. I have a #1 and #6. Great camp gear.
Walt
Park City, Montana
Which page in Russell did you find Dutch ovens?
JR Sweet
Palmer LK CO
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:50:01 -0700
From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek!
At 03:50 PM 2/21/2000 -0700, Ole wrote:
>Bill,
>There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch
>Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his
>arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found,
>or can anyone?
>Ole # 718
Is this the story yer thinking of ? (from River of the West)
"Meek had not abstained from the alcohol kettle, but had offered it and
partaken of it rather
more freely than usual; so that when rendezvous was broken up, the St.
Louis Company
gone to the Popo Agie, and the American Company going to Wind River, he
found that his
wife, a Nez Perce who had succeeded Umentucken in his affections, had taken
offence, or a
fit of homesickness, which was synonymous, and departed with the party of
Ematinger and
the missionaries, intending to visit her people at Walla-Walla. This
desertion wounded
Meek's feelings.........Therefore at the first camp of the American
Company, Meek resolved to turn his back on the company, and go after the
mother and daughter. Obtaining a fresh kettle of alcohol, to keep
up his spirits, he left camp, returning toward the scene of the late
rendezvous. But in the
effort to keep up his spirits he had drank too much alcohol, and the result
was that on the
next morning he found himself alone on the Wind River Mountain, with his
horses and pack
mules, and very sick indeed...."
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:50:56 EST
From: Wind1838@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List -- Mr. Bridger
Evening:
I visited my friend Julie in Oregon Friday. I spied a book entitled, Fort
Bridger; First in the Wilderness, by Gowans and Campbell. Whenever I see a
book by Gowans I always pick it up. Noticing my interest, she was generous
enough to let me borrow the volume. This one must have been one of Gowans'
first, published in 1975 when he was just an associate professor at Brigham
Young.
I am always fascinated by trade documents. In this book, an account of
property belonging to Bridger and Vasques taken forcibly by the "authorities"
of Utah territory August 25 through November 1853. I post them in hopes they
are of interest to the "list."
4 Do caster ($3.00 lb.) $ 12.00
1 Do medicine 2.00
1 1/2 Doz lead pencils 1.50
125 yards gould and silver lace 62.50
2 Bair skins 10.00
7 lbs. Beever 75.00
8 read plumes 4.00
7 leather Sirsingles 1.00
1 Sand kiddle 2.00
6 doz. papers smoking tobacco 4.50
12 Do exeltrees 12.00
(my personal favorite) 1 can lobsters 1.00
I never realized Fort Bridger was originally on the Green River and then
moved to Black's Fork. Gowan's book actually pinpoints four sites for Fort
Bridger. Who knew?
Laura Glise
Wind1838@aol.com
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:15:53 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Ole,
I can't remember ever seeing an "old" Dutch Oven of the type you describe. =
I
own an "old" cast three legged skillet and have owned or seen "old"=
cauldrons,
kettles, skillets, and pots of wide variety. =20
The term "Dutch Oven" dates to about 1760; Random House offers 3
definitions: =20
1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot=
roasts,
stews, etc.=20
2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire.=20
3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking.=20
The 1812 Websters doesn't list the phrase for any usage.
Lodge Manufacturing calls what you describe a "camp oven" and a flat bottom
pot
with a rounded lid without the raised rim a "dutch oven". (Note: they are=
not
absolutely consistent in their terminology)
<http://www.lodgemfg.com/campware.htm>http://www.lodgemfg.com/campware.htm
Everyone assumes that a rimmed top, shallow pot, with a legged flat bottom=
is
old. I've not seen the evidence and wonder if this isn't perhaps another of
those general assumptions which are not quite precise. The Dutch Oven=
Society
also is inconsistent in use of terminology and the only history they talk
about, is about their club, not a word about the history of Camp Ovens.
The pictures you reference don't tell much more than some sort of cook pot=
was
there. That's a long stretch to a "Dutch Oven" with a legged flat bottom,
shallow sides, and a flat raised rim top. =20
I have baked breads in sheet iron skillets with a second skillet holding=
coals
on top, an official Dutch oven isn't mandatory and any of the varied styles=
of
lidded pots can be used for baking. The style Lodge shows as a Dutch Oven=
can
easily have the lid mounted upside down to hold coals for baking.
John...
Bill, exactly what style of pot did Paul Revere improve? =20
At 03:58 PM 2/21/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi! John,
>I knew if I kicked a few bushes you would eventualy say something. ha ha.
>Simmilar to todays Dutch Oven, that is with tapered sides, flat top with a
>rim and with leggs.
>Yes I know Cauldrens have leggs but the top is more round and no rim.
>Note: see Bill's comment about Paul Revere.
>----------
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:30:32 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Lodge Manufacturing calls what you describe a "camp oven" and a flat bottom
pot with a rounded lid without the raised rim a "dutch oven". (Note: they
are not
lidded pots can be used for baking. The style Lodge shows as a Dutch Oven
can
easily have the lid mounted upside down to hold coals for baking. John...
Lodge also makes the lid that holds hot coals.
Walt
Park City, Montana
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:59:31 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
John,
The drawing's of Catlin and Miller were made during the fur trade period. W=
e
can disagree about the shape of cookwear, However the drawings clearly show
that Cast Iron pots were widely used. I have examined a few old pot's and
have noticed one big diference,the old stuff is much thinner.
I also agree with a lot of you, that I would not take a cast iron pot on a
treck or on some short term horse camp's but I would use them.
One thing I have come to realize is that with more information comming out
all the time, the things that I once thought were writen in stone "arnt" an=
d
I am forced to hold on to my idea's loosely.
I realy enjoy the discussions on this list, only due to the thing's that I
have learned from all the diferent discussions.
Aux Aliments De Pays
Ole #718
>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 10:15 PM
>
>Ole,
>
>I can't remember ever seeing an "old" Dutch Oven of the type you describe.=
I
>own an "old" cast three legged skillet and have owned or seen "old" cauldr=
ons,
>kettles, skillets, and pots of wide variety.
>
>The term "Dutch Oven" dates to about 1760; Random House offers 3
>definitions:
>1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot roa=
sts,
>stews, etc.
>2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire.
>3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking.
>The 1812 Websters doesn't list the phrase for any usage.
>
>Lodge Manufacturing calls what you describe a "camp oven" and a flat botto=
m
>pot
>with a rounded lid without the raised rim a "dutch oven". (Note: they are=
not
>absolutely consistent in their terminology)
><http://www.lodgemfg.com/campware.htm>http://www.lodgemfg.com/campware.htm
>
>Everyone assumes that a rimmed top, shallow pot, with a legged flat bottom=
is
>old. I've not seen the evidence and wonder if this isn't perhaps another =
of
>those general assumptions which are not quite precise. The Dutch Oven Soc=
iety
>also is inconsistent in use of terminology and the only history they talk
>about, is about their club, not a word about the history of Camp Ovens.
>
>The pictures you reference don't tell much more than some sort of cook pot=
was
>there. That's a long stretch to a "Dutch Oven" with a legged flat bottom,
>shallow sides, and a flat raised rim top.
>
>I have baked breads in sheet iron skillets with a second skillet holding c=
oals
>on top, an official Dutch oven isn't mandatory and any of the varied style=
s of
>lidded pots can be used for baking. The style Lodge shows as a Dutch Oven=
can
>easily have the lid mounted upside down to hold coals for baking.
>
>John...
>
>Bill, exactly what style of pot did Paul Revere improve?
>
>
>
>At 03:58 PM 2/21/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hi! John,
>>I knew if I kicked a few bushes you would eventualy say something. ha ha.
>>Simmilar to todays Dutch Oven, that is with tapered sides, flat top with =
a
>>rim and with leggs.
>>Yes I know Cauldrens have leggs but the top is more round and no rim.
>>Note: see Bill's comment about Paul Revere.
>>----------
>
>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
>
>Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
>
><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>
>mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>
>
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?
Ole,
I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during the
period. I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains=
prior
to 1840. =20
I question whether or not the type of "Dutch Oven" you started this=
discussion
about existed at all. =20
Catlin's drawings DO NOT "clearly" show cast iron pots. He only really=
draws
one pot type. Your "best" example (along with all the others you
mentioned) on
page 241 looks much more like a set of nested sheet metal pots set out on=
the
ground. Brass, copper or sheet iron cannot be determined from the simple
drawings; they are typical of the shape of nested pots of the period.
There is
nothing that indicates they are of cast iron. Based on the absolute lack of
evidence in Catlin's work, I didn't bother to dig out Miller.
There are many "old" examples of round bottom cast iron pots, we can=
identify
the differences of manufacturing techniques and style in 18th and 19th=
century
cast iron tea kettles. There are no "old" specimens I've seen, or seen
reference to, of the type of Dutch Oven you describe. The differences in=
old
and new cast iron are much more than the thickness of the casting.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what Lodge Manufacturing calls a
"Camp Oven" is a modern style pot with no relevance to the Rocky Mountain=
Fur
Trade prior to 1840. =20
My evidence? Primarily a lack of evidence. If the phrase "Dutch Oven" is
encountered in journals or records; to what does it refer? I have shown at
least three distinctly different definitions for "Dutch Oven". A 5 line
drawing by Catlin really doesn't prove anything other than some sort of pot
was
there, maybe. I'm less convinced than when you started this thread.
When I was riding with Pawnee and The Walrus we carried a small cast iron
round
bottom lidded pot with us. You should remember the pot you've eaten from=
it.=20
It has thinner walls than any old ones I've seen. Not much trouble for a
party
to pack.
John...
At 07:59 AM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote:
>John,
>The drawing's of Catlin and Miller were made during the fur trade period.=
We
>can disagree about the shape of cookwear, However the drawings clearly show
>that Cast Iron pots were widely used. I have examined a few old pot's and
>have noticed one big diference,the old stuff is much thinner.=20
>I also agree with a lot of you, that I would not take a cast iron pot on a
>treck or on some short term horse camp's but I would use them.
>One thing I have come to realize is that with more information comming out
>all the time, the things that I once thought were writen in stone "arnt"=
and
>I am forced to hold on to my idea's loosely.
>I realy enjoy the discussions on this list, only due to the thing's that I
>have learned from all the diferent discussions.
>
>Aux Aliments De Pays
>Ole #718=20
>
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:16:56 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens?
Methinks the term "Dutch oven" may be broadly applied to a wide variety
of cast iron cooking pots.
That cast iron cooking pots were available is beyond dispute. There are
many references to Indians cooking in them meaning they were used as trade
items and were fairly plentiful in number.
We also know that most trappers traveled in numbers and had a string of
pack animals making transport of cast iron possible. Likely and probable are
debatable.
Specimens of what might have been can be seen in the book "Collectors
Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann
and Frank J. Kravic on page 90.
It is also my understanding that crude vessels for eating and cooking
were made by pounding sheet iron into the desired shape.
Personally, I use cast where using the iron mule to unload into camp is
permitted but would never haul the stuff by hand. For that I use tin frying
pans and eat directly from those.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
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Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:49:23 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens?
Frank,
I agree completly. Cast Iron has changed even in my time and they change
from manufacturer to manufacturer. What I am talking about is the flat
bottomed pot with legs and a somwhat flat lid with a rim, simmilar to lodge
Mfg. but not exactly. (How is that for vague) The drawing in Catlins book
shows them cooking on the ground instead of a tripod, it also shows the
lid's as being flat but in the writen discription Catlin states that the
lids were made of iron.
No smoking gun but dang close to it.
Ole #718
- ----------
>From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net>
>To: "MM" <hist_text@xmission.com>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens?
>Date: Tue, Feb 22, 2000, 12:16 PM
>
> Methinks the term "Dutch oven" may be broadly applied to a wide variety
>of cast iron cooking pots.
> That cast iron cooking pots were available is beyond dispute. There are
>many references to Indians cooking in them meaning they were used as trade
>items and were fairly plentiful in number.
> We also know that most trappers traveled in numbers and had a string of
>pack animals making transport of cast iron possible. Likely and probable are
>debatable.
> Specimens of what might have been can be seen in the book "Collectors
>Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann
>and Frank J. Kravic on page 90.
> It is also my understanding that crude vessels for eating and cooking
>were made by pounding sheet iron into the desired shape.
> Personally, I use cast where using the iron mule to unload into camp is
>permitted but would never haul the stuff by hand. For that I use tin frying
>pans and eat directly from those.
>Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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