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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #455 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, January 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 455 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs) -áááááá MtMan-List: Mocassins and hair boots-possible fur trade ref. -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN -áááááá MtMan-List: bear hides -áááááá MtMan-List: Address change(off topic) -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bear hides -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá MtMan-List: Miscellaneous -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bear hides -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs -áááááá MtMan-List: Fw: furs for mountain men -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: furs for mountain men -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:59:28 -0700 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs) It's surprising that the mountain men would have worn blanket scraps wrapped= =20 around their feet, since voyageurs wore moccasins with 'a pair of blanket=20 socks=85two pair of socks are used with snow shoes...' ( Back, 314) David= =20 Thompson's memoirs also mention blanket socks. ( Thompson, Narrative, 68)=20 Blanket socks were usually sewn when they were needed, rather than brought= =20 from Montreal ready-made. (Tyrrell, 495 ; Back, 191) (Full references=20 available on request.) Perhaps the blanket scraps were actually blanket strips wrapped around the= =20 lower leg, like puttees? My husband used these, along with high moccasins,= =20 when he did snowshoeing years ago.=20 Your humble & obedinet servant, Angela Gottfred =20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:14:32 -0600 From: Mike Rock <mikerock@mhtc.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Mocassins and hair boots-possible fur trade ref. Whoa, Capt. Check out "Our Boots", by Jill Oakes and Rick Riewe, U of Manitoba. This is THE source for current and past footwear of the Arctic cultures, worldwide. Jill has another book, just out in hardcover, "Spirit of Siberia", that is enough to make one cry..it is beautifully done. There is a summary footwear, past and present, in each. Construction details, drawings, photographs and text are the bulk of the contents, with historic perspectives and anecdotal information as well. Hair in, hair out, sealskins, polar bear, the local mutt, you name it, they made and make boots out of it. Some commercial 'yellow' hides show up as well, and are not well liked. Plans for clothing are sparse, as the research was funded in part by the Bata Shoe Museum, in Toronto. More on clothing is found in "Copper and Caribou Inuit Skin Clothing Production", by Jill. Our Boots, ISBN 0-500-27860-1 Spirit of Siberia, ISBN 1-55054-648-1 Copper and Caribou Inuit Skin Clothing Production, ISBN 0-600-12909-4 "Spirit of Siberia" is where I pulled my references to the circumpolar use of 'tipi-like' dwellings, without smoke flaps, some months ago, for the list. Most respectfully, Mike Rock - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:24:02 -0800 From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN > > Of course I am getting on the soap box again. What do I know, Just read the > history that the white man has written and he will tell you that it was > manifest destiny for the white race to dominate and tame the North American > Continent from sea to shining sea. Of course what happened in 1492 to now > were nothing just the lost of culture and lives over the number of years. > There were only about 50 million humans on the North American Continent when > Columbus started the invasion in North America. But there is as few as 1% > left in the US. Hmmm, 50 million natives when Columbus arrived. I have seen estimates of that number of persons for precontact populations, but other more realistic estimates range from just a couple of million people to around 10-15 million. And remember these are only estimates. No one knows how many people there were, or even how many tribes. Well folks, we're doing it again. Judging the actions of our ancestors by modern standards without looking objectively at what many consider the victims. Sure our ancestors, I say again, our ancestors, not WE, broke treaties with the Indians, but the Indians broke treaties too. I can't say as I blame the Indians for most of the times they broke those treaties , but it has to be remembered they did break treaties too. Our ancestors are portrayed as buying land for paltry sums of trade goods, but those trade goods had great value to the Indians. Guns, iron knives, axes, arrow and spear points were worth their weight in gold to stone age tribes, as were glass beads and a myriad of other objects they could not produce. We forget the relative value of those objects to the tribes, as opposed to the value placed on them by the white traders. I can only imagine the first Indians to trade with the white man laughing at the stupid white men who were willing to trade such priceless objects as guns, iron knives and axes for the paltry number of furs the Indians gave them in return. The value of an object is relative to ones ability to produce or procure that item. It's the old law of supply and demand. Our ancestors are portrayed as the devil incarnate in our dealings with the Tribes, but the Tribes, themselves, weren't angels either. Lets not forget what the various tribes did to one another. The Five Nations of Iroquois league completely wiped out the Erie Nation in the early 1700's. The Huron were all but wiped out by their Algonquin enemies in the 1680's. And those are only two instances that I can think of off the top of my head. You might also research the treatment of the Shawnee by the Iroquois. The Shawnee were defeated by the Iroquois, and the men were made to wear the apron worn by women as a means of the Iroquois exerting their authority over the Shawnee. Any Shawnee man caught wearing a man's clothing was immedialty killed by the Iroquois. Nice treatment huh. Whey aren't the descendents of the Shawnee protesting past inhumane treatment by the Iroquois? No money in it. Why aren't those instances of inhumanity by the tribes as widely protested as, or as widely known as our ancestors treatment of the Tribes? No money in it. The French had the same designs on Indian lands as the English, but they were much more subtle in their machinations. Sure, many French became intimately aquainted with the Tribes, and many Frenchmen intermarried and lived with the tribes, but the overall effect would have been the same. It might have taken longer, but disease, liquor, and the dependency on French trade goods would have doomed the native lifestyle and culture as sure as any conquering army. Oh yeah, the French Crown had the same intent, in regards to acquisition of Indian lands, as the English. Remember Celeron's trip down the Ohio River claiming the land for France and burying lead plates to insure that claim? The French looked upon that land as belonging to the Crown, not the Tribes but the French King. I seem to remember that France sent many emissaries to the Eastern Tribes in an attempt to convince them to fight for the French during the F&I War. The English did the same, but were more content to persuade the Tribes to remain neutral. Though the English did recruit the Eastern Tribes of the Iroquois League to fight for the British cause. Yep, the end result would have been the same. I'm tired of being portrayed as the bad guy and the "minorities" being portrayed as victims. It's easier to blame us because many of them are addicted to drugs and alcohol, or because they don't have good paying jobs when all they have to do is to take the personal responsibility to NOT drink that booze or take those drugs, and take the initiative to settle down to work on getting an education. BTW, my Anglo-Saxon heritage puts me in a minority too. Only 20 % of the people in this country are of Anglo- Saxon descent, but it isn't politically correct to recognize the hated white folks of Anglo-Saxon descent as such. Besides, there's not enough money in it to organize and depict our "minority" as victims of a greater minority. J.D. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:53:36 -0600 From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN - -----Original Message----- From: jdearing <jdearing@brick.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: January 23, 2000 6:25 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CROATOAN >more realistic estimates range from just a couple of million people to around 10-15 >million. Some people who have studied the subject extensively would say less than a million for the area that now compromises N. America. >Well folks, we're doing it again. Judging the actions of our ancestors by >modern standards Some people enjoy doing this. It's a phase people go through. Well some folks never get through it if there education doesn't continue. hindsight is 20/20 and all that. As for everything else you said, don't waste your breath. It's something everyone has to figure out for themselves in my opinion... northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:11:27 -0500 From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: MtMan-List: bear hides Two of my friends want to get black bear hides, "already tanned". One wants to make some accouterments for his rev-war soldier portrayal, the other just wants one to use in camp. If anyone can tell me where to find them it would be appreciated. Thank you John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:17:18 CST From: "Matt Porter" <musketoperator@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Address change(off topic) Good day all, I was pleased to see that you all were not offended with my messages. Anyway my e-mail adress is changing to pmporter@up-link.com I just thought you all would like to know. Matt Porter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:32:07 -0700 From: "Ron Chamberlain" <cstmzd@ida.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hides Check with Moscow Hide & Fur www.hideandfur.com Ron *************************************** cstmzd@ida.net $500 Daily prize..$25,000 Grand Prize http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/74531 Get $20 for Free https://preview.x.com/new_account.asp?Referrer=referralsplus@homepage.com ****************************************** - ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> To: "AMM discussion" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 6:11 PM Subject: MtMan-List: bear hides > Two of my friends want to get black bear hides, "already tanned". One wants > to make some accouterments for his rev-war soldier portrayal, the other just > wants one to use in camp. If anyone can tell me where to find them it would > be appreciated. > > Thank you > > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > Longhunter > Mountainman > southwest Ohio > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:54:03 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Hello, there by the fire. Throw another megabyte on-its cold out tonight. Thanks, Angela that's what I was looking for, some first hand accounts of that type moccasin being used. Granted, it wasn't by the American fur trappers, but I guess them Hudson Bay men and Voyageurs hit these Rocky Mts. too. Cap'n, in your comments about Indians not using hair on moccasins, I must disagree, although your use of hair to stuff into moccasins was a practice used. I use loose deer hair myself, but in the bottom of my buffalo hair on mocs, since the hair is worn thin after 7 years of winter use. In regards to winter mocs made of hair-on skins, there is actually quite a bit of documentation in their use by Indian tribes of the plains/plateau. Several examples are currently on display in museums, one of which is the Cody museum in WY. Merrithweather Lewis wrote of the Shoshones: The meckersons of both sexes are usually the same and are made of deer or elk or buffaloe skin dressed without the hair. Sometimes in winter they make them of buffalo skin dressed with the hair on and turn the hair inwards as the Mandans, Minetares and most of the nations do who inhabit the buffalow country. The mockerson is formed with one seem on the outer edge of the foot is cut open at the instep to admit the foot and sewed up behind. In this respect they are the same with the Mandans. Two Badger wrote in the U."M.O. Handbook, Nothing I have seen does a better job of keeping your feet warm than the insulating qualities of hair or fur inside the moccasins. ...I now use exclusively the side seam design.. Chronister, Landry, and Hansen believe they were more common and are more appropriate by date. Angela , Osborne Russel wrote, on a trappers dress, " his personal dress is a flannel or cotton shirt, { if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not antelope skin answers the purpose} or smoked buffaloe skin, leggings, a coat made of a blanket or buffaloe robe a hat or cap of wool, buffaloe or otter skin. his hose are pieces of blanket wrapped around his feet which are covered with a pair of moccasins made of dressed deer elk or buffalo skin with his long hair falling loosely over his shoulders completes his uniform." See ya on the trail, Crazy and Jill - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:19:39 -0500 (EST) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Miscellaneous Am sorry to hear about Charley Hanson's passing. Recently? Maybe God needed him up there for some more important work??? Flints: How does sharpening the edge with a small hand held V-shaped HRC 62 file block compare with knapping them? Did any of the forefathers try this? - ----------------------------------- from Michigan - ----------------------------------- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:30:34 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hides Check with Joe Brandl at Absaroka tannery in DuBois WY. - -----Original Message----- From: John Hunt <jhunt1@one.net> To: AMM discussion <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 5:13 PM Subject: MtMan-List: bear hides >Two of my friends want to get black bear hides, "already tanned". One wants >to make some accouterments for his rev-war soldier portrayal, the other just >wants one to use in camp. If anyone can tell me where to find them it would >be appreciated. > > Thank you > >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt >Longhunter >Mountainman >southwest Ohio > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:30:58 -0800 From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > > Hello, there by the fire. Throw another megabyte on-its cold out > tonight. Thanks, Angela that's what I was looking for, some first hand > accounts of that type moccasin being used. Granted, it wasn't by the > American fur trappers, but I guess them Hudson Bay men and Voyageurs hit > these Rocky Mts. too. Gazing Coyote, Yes Angela, thank you for your as usual timely intervention. Whether they were HBC men or Voyageurs or Rocky Mt. Men, the original question dealt with whether hair on Buffalo hide mocs were a common item and thus authentic to the Rocky Mt. experience. My view's haven't changed appreciably. Such were made I'm sure, but I see no definitive evidence that such were common in winter, only "sometimes" made, in the manner of the Mandans. Cap'n, in your comments about Indians not using hair > on moccasins, I must disagree, although your use of hair to stuff into > moccasins was a practice used. I use loose deer hair myself, but in the > bottom of my buffalo hair on mocs, since the hair is worn thin after 7 years > of winter use. In regards to winter mocs made of hair-on skins, there is > actually quite a bit of documentation in their use by Indian tribes of the > plains/plateau. Several examples are currently on display in museums, one of > which is the Cody museum in WY. Are those examples collected during the Fur Trade? Merrithweather Lewis wrote of the Shoshones: > The meckersons of both sexes are usually the same and are made of deer or > elk or buffaloe skin dressed without the hair. Sometimes in winter they make > them of buffalo skin dressed with the hair on and turn the hair inwards as > the Mandans, Minetares and most of the nations do who inhabit the buffalow > country. Again to use your example, "sometimes". The mockerson is formed with one seem on the outer edge of the foot > is cut open at the instep to admit the foot and sewed up behind. In this > respect they are the same with the Mandans. This refers to the construction methods, doesn't it? Basically a side seam which was very common (as I understand it) to several tribes. > Two Badger wrote in the U."M.O. Handbook, Nothing I have seen does a > better job of keeping your feet warm than the insulating qualities of hair or > fur inside the moccasins. ...I now use exclusively the side seam design.. > Chronister, Landry, and Hansen believe they were more common and are more > appropriate by date. I can hardly refute the findings or conclusions of such learned scholars but I think that though common, tey certainly were not the only style of moc made by "whites" as evidence the several pictures showing otherwise. Two Badger's conclusion that Buffalo hair on winter mocs will serve well can not be refuted. Angela , Osborne Russell > wrote, on a trappers dress, " his personal dress is a flannel or cotton > shirt, { if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not antelope skin > answers the purpose} or smoked buffaloe skin, leggings, a coat made of a > blanket or buffaloe robe a hat or cap of wool, buffaloe or otter skin. his > hose are pieces of blanket wrapped around his feet which are covered with a > pair of moccasins made of dressed deer elk or buffalo skin with his long hair > falling loosely over his shoulders completes his uniform." Again using your chosen example, blanket material was used by the trapper (whether wrapped or sewn into a sock) to insulate his moccasins. Not buffalo hair on hides or even hair inside. Again such may very well have been done. The question is how common was it to do so. We certainly see the advantage and I see nothing wrong with someone making such a pair. The same holds true for side seam style mocs. Very easy to build and certainly common in much of the haunts of the trappers of old but most definitely not the only kind and perhaps not even the most prevalent. Which ever, for my purposes I find that a vamped pucker toe style made of brain tan with "made" wool "socks" in pairs inside serve quit well in lieu of buffalo or seal skins. See you on the trail. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:51:41 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs > Two Badger wrote in the U."M.O. Handbook, Nothing I have seen does a > better job of keeping your feet warm than the insulating qualities of hair or > fur inside the moccasins. ...I now use exclusively the side seam design.. See ya on the trail, Crazy Hello Crazy, this is badgerhole. You and 2Badger are right. I made my first pair of side seam moccasins 1954 from an Indian tanned elk skin provided by my Uncle Bob. I have seen side seam moccasins made with buffalo hair turned in on the inside of the moccasins. I used to ice fish over in 2Badgers neck of the woods Learned to layer the moccasins deep enough to cut the cold. Gary Johnson one of the Crow historians talks about Lewis and Clark arriving in center seam moccasins. I think the company converted right away to side seams after coming out of the woods and onto the plains. The side seam does seem to make better winter gear for use by mountain men than any other moccasin design and is period correct from 1800-1850 around here. The Crows used them and the Blackfeet called them real moccasins. Badgerhole Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:14:55 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs > Which ever, for my purposes I find that a vamped pucker toe style made > of brain tan with "made" wool "socks" in pairs inside serve quit well in > lieu of buffalo or seal skins. See you on the trail. I remain....> YMOS > Capt. Lahti' By vamped pucker toe do you mean made in the style of the Salish? Badgerhole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:11:44 -0800 From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Walt Foster wrote: > By vamped pucker toe do you mean made in the style of the Salish? > Badgerhole Badgerhole, I'm of the impression that the Salish style of moccasin is a side seam style. The gathered toe vamped moccasin is eastern. I've read that the word moccasin traditionally referred to a shoe with a puckered u-shaped 'vamp' over the instep. The name of the Great lakes Ojibway tribe means 'people of the puckered moccasins'. In the "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" the side seam is the "Salish (Flathead) side seam" on page 48. Such a moccasin style does not have a vamp. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:31:47 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs > In the "Craft Manual of North American Indian Footwear" the side seam is > the "Salish (Flathead) side seam" on page 48. Such a moccasin style does > not have a vamp. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Hello Capt. Lahti', Thanks for the use of such a fine old reference source. My son has mine so I have no idea of the page number I refer to. The moccasin I am talking about may be listed as Kuteni. Not sure about the spelling but they are a vamped center seam also. This is a very old moccasin pattern. I have a pair. They are much more complicated to make than the side seam of the northern plains, mountains of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Plateau tribes used the side seam including the Uses who were considered mountain dwellers. The Blackfoot called side seems the real moccasin. Over here in the birth place of the American Mountain Man temperatures can get to 51 below or better in some places not counting the wind chill. Foot gear is essential. I think the side seam is easier to cope with to produce foot gear that will protect at these extremes of killer cold weather. And with the side seam being so common among the tribes in the Upper Missouri how could they not have been popular and practical in use by the mountain men themselves? Badgerhole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:08:44 -0800 From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Walt Foster wrote: > Thanks for the use of such a fine old reference source. My son has mine so > I have no idea of the page number I refer to. The moccasin I am talking > about may be listed as Kuteni. Badgerhole, It's Kootenai and on page 26. That tribe is closely related to the Salish if I am not mistaken (wouldn't be the first time if I am). I think they are an even farther north tribe than salish/flathead (if those two go together as I think they do). Not sure about the spelling but they are a > vamped center seam also. This is a very old moccasin pattern. I have a > pair. You got that right. Much more complicated to make. I won't even try to describe how they differ from a simple 'vamped pucker toe" design. Rather than just gathering up the toe, they have a funny cutout at the toe which has to be turned up and sewn to the vamp. They are much more complicated to make than the side seam of the > northern plains, mountains of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. Plateau tribes > used the side seam including the Uses who were considered mountain dwellers. > The Blackfoot called side seems the real moccasin. Every one was the first to invent everything. <G> > > Over here in the birth place of the American Mountain Man temperatures can > get to 51 below or better in some places not counting the wind chill. Foot > gear is essential. I think the side seam is easier to cope with to produce > foot gear that will protect at these extremes of killer cold weather. I know by now that you are inordinately proud of your state <G> (and rightfully so) and that it gets hotter and colder and blows more and etc. <G> than any where else but it does get cold back in the lakes country of Northern US and Southern Canada. It also gets cold up north of you and a bit to the west. Other styles of moccasins were made to be used in those other cold areas. The side seam is a very easy moccasin to make but it does not have a corner on dealing with cold weather. And > with the side seam being so common among the tribes in the Upper Missouri > how could they not have been popular and practical in use by the mountain > men themselves? There are plenty of sketches showing Mt. Men wearing pucker toe style mocs. I'm just as sure that some wore side seams and probably other styles as well. I think it is a big mistake to hang your hat on one style. I think that is wrong and not what was done. I don't see pictures of many mt men dressed as indians and I read many first person accounts that come close to detailing how they dressed themselves and it all added up to them not changing from what they were used to doing back home. When cloth clothing wore out they made more of dressed skins but in the same style as was the custom. I would imagine that when they made moccasins they made them as they had always done back east (where they had all just recently come from). Some may have had indian women make them moccasins and some of them may have adopted the ways of manufacturing footgear similar to the local population but there are too many accounts of whites setting down to make more moccasins for themselves. You know how to make moccasins and have been doing it that way for Lord knows how long. If you come to Wa. and spend a few years near me are you going to change the way you make moccasins just because I make them different. I wouldn't. Just like the indians they lived and worked around these people are tradition bound as much or more so than anyone. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:27:58 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs Hello in the camp, the fire still warm? A warm fire, good pair mochas and a buffalo robe to roll up in are my most favorite things come this time of year. Captain, didn't mean to get your guard hair up! The most important thing here that we do agree on is both types work. I have been making and using hair on moc. for at least the last 20 years. With only one regret and that was when they wore out. We do agree that they were there and if you need more documentation believe me I have it in my books some ware I just don't have the time right know to do the digging. I'm busy making a new set of snow shoes and raw hide waits for no man. The reason I asked the question about pack type was I have been seeing more and more people using them but when asked about documentation I never got any And I hadn't read any accept for Russell account of blanket wraps. That is a stretch from wraps to sewn booties two lairs thick. But I must admit I have not read ever thing, I'm still trying. It seems I need to do some on those Here Before Christ boys. The main thing here is keeping your feet warm and dry and your a happy camper. Both types of moc will do that. Captain one more question, now mind your guard hair. have you noticed with the pucker toe that it gathers snow on top and when the snow melts your feet get wet? See on the trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 01:17:01 -0700 From: "Ron Chamberlain" <cstmzd@ida.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: furs for mountain men This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF6608.B7F017C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thought I would forward this to the list - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Brady=20 To: cstmzd@ida.net=20 Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 11:47 PM Subject: furs for mountain men Dear Sirs: WE are a fur trading company located in Okanogan county, Washington, = near the site of the first fur trading post in the northwest, built = 1811. We sell raw and tanned furs of most animals. Does your group = ever need any full skins, heads, scrap, or pieces for bags, etc. If you = do, please let us quote you prices, Sincerely, George Brady Cascade Biological Supply Box 535 Pateros, WA 98846 - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF6608.B7F017C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Thought I would forward this to the list</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:cascadeb@televar.com" title=3Dcascadeb@televar.com>George = Brady</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:cstmzd@ida.net"=20 title=3Dcstmzd@ida.net>cstmzd@ida.net</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 23, 2000 11:47 PM</DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> furs for mountain men</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Sirs:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WE are a fur trading company located in = Okanogan=20 county, Washington, near the site of the first fur trading post in the=20 northwest, built 1811. We sell raw and tanned furs of most = animals. =20 Does your group ever need any full skins, heads, scrap, or pieces for = bags,=20 etc. If you do, please let us quote you prices,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>George Brady</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cascade Biological Supply</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Box 535</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pateros, WA = 98846</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF6608.B7F017C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:43:32 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: furs for mountain men This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF6614.CDA0A6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, good forward on source of furs for mountain men. I question George on = "near the site of the first fur trading post in the northwest, built = 1811." The first fur trading post in the northwest was built by Manual = Lisa at the mouth of the Big Horn River 1807. Badgerhole - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF6614.CDA0A6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Ron,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>good forward on source of furs for = mountain=20 men. I question George on </FONT><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>"near the site=20 of the first fur trading post in the northwest, built 1811." The = first=20 fur trading post in the northwest was built by Manual Lisa at the = mouth=20 of the Big Horn River 1807. =20 Badgerhole</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF6614.CDA0A6A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:27:34 -0800 From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > > Hello in the camp, the fire still warm? > > A warm fire, good pair mochas and a buffalo robe to roll up in > are my most favorite things come this time of year. Captain, didn't mean to > get your guard hair up! The most important thing here that we do agree on is > both types work. Gazeing Coyote, If you did it didn't stand up all that much. <G> The reason I asked the question about pack type was I have been seeing > more and more people using them but when asked about documentation I never > got any And I hadn't read any accept for Russell account of blanket wraps. > That is a stretch from wraps to sewn booties two lairs thick. Admittedly finding documentation that talks to exact construction methods for such things is nie on to impossible. I won't go so far as to say that wool booties made thus were ever made. When they talk of setting down to make socks and even moccasins, we just do not know how they did it. Anything we come up with is speculation and at best close because of peripheral evidence. And such items of clothing do not last and pass the test of time. The design is quit old but not necessarily a design used for inner foot wear. So more speculation. Let us leave it at this. If you do not feel comfortable making something like that which you can not document to your own satisfaction that's fine. I am comfortable enough with what I am doing to go ahead and continue. I will advocate it as a more suitable alternative than wearing rubber packs with felt pack liners or even using manufactured felt pack liners and will not say that it is documented as totally authentic (only in the context of using wool blanketing to make moccasin liners which is documentable). I can live with that. Captain one more question, now mind your > guard hair. > have you noticed with the pucker toe that it gathers snow on top and when the > snow melts your feet get wet? Hasn't happened yet. I have found that though the soles of my feet may feel damp, the upper part of the moccasin not only doesn't get wet, my feet don't feel wet or even damp above the soles. I am careful not to have a serious buildup of snow on the tops of my feet when I stand next to a fire. The vamp of my moc is leather topped with red trade wool. Hope that explains it. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #455 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.