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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #456
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Wednesday, January 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 456
In this issue:
-áááááá MtMan-List: bear hides THANKS
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #455
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #455
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
-áááááá MtMan-List: Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders Webpage
-áááááá MtMan-List: Croatan response
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
-áááááá MtMan-List: LFFT Has Moved
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter Mocs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter Mocs
-áááááá MtMan-List: gloves
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: gloves
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: gloves
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:30:22 -0500
From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: bear hides THANKS
Thanks to all who gave reference`s on where to get bear skins. Should be
able to fine whats needed there. Again thanks
John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
Longhunter
Mountainman
southwest Ohio
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:02:18 -0500
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #455
Angela,
Why does the text of your message contain all those equal signs and number
20s? I'm curious.
HBC
>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:59:28 -0700
>From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs)
>
>It's surprising that the mountain men would have worn blanket scraps wrapped=
>=20
>around their feet, since voyageurs wore moccasins with 'a pair of blanket=20
>socks=85two pair of socks are used with snow shoes...' ( Back, 314) David=
>=20
>Thompson's memoirs also mention blanket socks. ( Thompson, Narrative, 68)=20
>Blanket socks were usually sewn when they were needed, rather than brought=
>=20
>from Montreal ready-made. (Tyrrell, 495 ; Back, 191) (Full references=20
>available on request.)
>
>Perhaps the blanket scraps were actually blanket strips wrapped around the=
>=20
>lower leg, like puttees? My husband used these, along with high moccasins,=
>=20
>when he did snowshoeing years ago.=20
>
>Your humble & obedinet servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because It's There ******
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:21:50 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <jal@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #455
I didn't get this on Angela's original post.
Jim
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:33:40 -0700
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
For what it's worth, here's some info I dug out of my notes:
"Their [Assiniboine Indians'] shoes, as well as those of the Crees, are
always made of buffalo leather the hair turned inwards which serves them as
socks." John Macdonnell, Red River, 1797 (Wood & Thiessen, 90)
The Assiniboines (aka Stoneys, Nakoda) were quite far-ranging; they have a
reserve in the foothills of the Rockies, about 20 mi east of Banff.
"[I hope you] will have the goodness to get whatever Leather you can spare
made up into serviceable shoes--part for Summer and part for Winter--"
letter to Robert McVicar, HBC, 1820 (Back, 333)
"...get all the Leather that can be collected at St. Mary's, Fort de Pinette
& Colvile House made up into Winter Shoes..." 1821 (Simpson, 278)
Of course, this doesn't tell us how the 'winter shoes' differed from the
'summer shoes'; it might have just been a difference in height, and nothing
to do with hair.
Thanks for the Osborne Russell quote; now I'm wondering why he didn't use
blanket socks. No wife? No sewing skills? Or perhaps the blanket scraps were
quicker to dry than socks.
Moccasins with puckered toes & vamps weren't restricted to the east; a pair
was collected in Ft. Chipewyan, in Northern Alberta, in 1859 (McCormack,
_Northwind_, 71). This style is also shown in Peter Rindisbacher's paintings
of Natives from the Winnipeg area c. 1822. Although I haven't looked into it
in detail, this style seems to be associated with the Cree, Canada's largest
& most widespread Native group. Crees were closely associated with Canadian
fur traders from the beginning of the trade on Hudson's Bay--if not earlier!
Oh, and the Kootenay/Kutenai/Ktunaxa traditionally did go quite far north,
as far as the area of the Rockies just west of Jasper, Alberta. I don't
recall if the Inland Salish also went that far.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:55:00 -0600
From: farseer <farseer@swbell.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
<buncha stuff snippped for brevity>
>
> I don't see pictures of many mt men dressed as indians and I read many
> first person accounts that come close to detailing how they dressed
> themselves and it all added up to them not changing from what they were
> used to doing back home. When cloth clothing wore out they made more of
> dressed skins but in the same style as was the custom. I would imagine
> that when they made moccasins they made them as they had always done
> back east (where they had all just recently come from).
>
With that in mind Cap'n, what would a trader working for one of the
companies, fresh from the flats wear? I am working on a set of fur in
moccasins, but I also have a set of leather soled, all leather boots that I
wear about the house when I'm working and hunting. These would be "Jeff
Davis" boots or Civil War era brogans. I know they aren't authentic, but
they're serving until I get my moccasins made. I knocked off some pucker
toes, but the leather was too thin to be much more than sleep wear =). I'm
hoping to get some hair-on buffalo scraps to make into winter mocs. NW
Missouri doesn't get that cold, we seldom get below -30 with wind, but I'm
hoping to head a little further north and west and try my hand at camping.
Reckon warmer footware would be advisable.
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:13:27 -0800
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
farseer wrote:
>
> With that in mind Cap'n, what would a trader working for one of the
> companies, fresh from the flats wear?
Farseer,
There is a good article in BOB (don't remember which volume) on clothing
of the fur trade by a couple guys that did their homework. Many other
paintings and such of a particular time will show what the common
fashion of civilized folk was. As to your question, it depends on what
year so it is hard to be specific (even if I had the knowledge to be
that specific) but I would imagine that if you had on a linen shirt
under a "fitted" frock coat with the shirt tucked into breeches or
pantaloons of wool, linen, canvas, or indian dressed hides, with either
knee socks or no shocks showing and had on all leather shoes or boots of
the period or perhaps even moccasins you would be dressed as a typical
trading post factor.
I am working on a set of fur in
> moccasins, but I also have a set of leather soled, all leather boots that I
> wear about the house when I'm working and hunting. These would be "Jeff
> Davis" boots or Civil War era brogans. I know they aren't authentic, but
> they're serving until I get my moccasins made. I knocked off some pucker
> toes, but the leather was too thin to be much more than sleep wear =).
It is not that hard to attach a separate sole piece to the bottoms of
your pucker toes. The originals were not thickly soled either. Just got
to get used to walking on bare feet.
I'm
> hoping to get some hair-on buffalo scraps to make into winter mocs. NW
> Missouri doesn't get that cold, we seldom get below -30 with wind, but I'm
> hoping to head a little further north and west and try my hand at camping.
> Reckon warmer footware would be advisable.
It surely does help. Hope I answered your question. You'll excuse me but
I have to go throw some chile and corn bread together for supper. I
remain...
YMOS
Capt. Lahti
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:36:57 -0700
From: tetontodd@juno.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
It's been an interesting discursion on winter moccasins and the type of
discussion that is EXACTLY suited for this forum.
Since I wear a pair of "shoe pack" type winter moccasins, I'll give my
thoughts on the topic.
No, I haven't been able to document their use in the Rocky Mountains
circa 1805-1840. That is I haven't seen them in a Miller painting, nor on
Ashleys' trade records. Jed Smith hasn't mentioned them in his diary, nor
Russell or Ferris or Leonard, etc.
It is known that shoepacks were worn in the East. (Check Bakers videos,
He'll provide documentation.) In Ellen Gehret's book "Rural Pennsylvania
Clothing" she mentions that stocking were often made either by knitting
or by sewing pieces cut from blanket. It's not to difficult to imagine
using those blanket stockings inside a shoe pack. This is where the use
of a historical "persona" comes into play. If a fellow lived in rural
Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee etc in the middle to late 1700's and spent time
in the woods, it is likely that he learned to make his own footwear. The
predominant style moccasin of the area or a shoepack would be a logical
choice. If that same fellow traveled westward he took that knowledge with
him. If he found his way to the mountains and was in need of proper warm
winter footwear, he could either trade with the friendlies or make his
own according to his knowledge. I feel either would be correct and
authentic. Too bad Miller didn't hang around over the winter, maybe we'd
know a little more.
Happy Trails
Teton
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:53:41 -0600
From: farseer <farseer@swbell.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
Thanks Cap'n. Don't want to stay a flatlander forever =) Aquiring all
the right bitz is gonna take some time I suppose. That's part of the joy of
this! I've done medieval re-enactments for a number of years (not
historically accurate, hysterically accurate is more the like) and I have
some things that will pass, barely, but most of it's for other time periods.
Much obliged to you.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of R Lahti
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 7:13 PM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
>
>
> farseer wrote:
> >
> > With that in mind Cap'n, what would a trader working for one of the
> > companies, fresh from the flats wear?
>
> Farseer,
>
> There is a good article in BOB (don't remember which volume) on clothing
> of the fur trade by a couple guys that did their homework. Many other
> paintings and such of a particular time will show what the common
> fashion of civilized folk was. As to your question, it depends on what
> year so it is hard to be specific (even if I had the knowledge to be
> that specific) but I would imagine that if you had on a linen shirt
> under a "fitted" frock coat with the shirt tucked into breeches or
> pantaloons of wool, linen, canvas, or indian dressed hides, with either
> knee socks or no shocks showing and had on all leather shoes or boots of
> the period or perhaps even moccasins you would be dressed as a typical
> trading post factor.
>
> I am working on a set of fur in
> > moccasins, but I also have a set of leather soled, all leather
> boots that I
> > wear about the house when I'm working and hunting. These
> would be "Jeff
> > Davis" boots or Civil War era brogans. I know they aren't
> authentic, but
> > they're serving until I get my moccasins made. I knocked off
> some pucker
> > toes, but the leather was too thin to be much more than sleep wear =).
>
> It is not that hard to attach a separate sole piece to the bottoms of
> your pucker toes. The originals were not thickly soled either. Just got
> to get used to walking on bare feet.
> I'm
> > hoping to get some hair-on buffalo scraps to make into winter mocs. NW
> > Missouri doesn't get that cold, we seldom get below -30 with
> wind, but I'm
> > hoping to head a little further north and west and try my hand
> at camping.
> > Reckon warmer footware would be advisable.
>
> It surely does help. Hope I answered your question. You'll excuse me but
> I have to go throw some chile and corn bread together for supper. I
> remain...
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:17:22 -0800
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter mocs
farseer wrote:
>
> Thanks Cap'n.
> Much obliged to you.
Farseer,
Your welcome and any time. Glad to share my biases and prejudice's along
with my considered opinions any time. <G> Nobody came to the Shining
mountains a Hiverano. If you always look at your self as a pilgrim you
will continue to grow. I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:04:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders Webpage
Hallo
For those what keep track of such things, the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
have relocated their webpage to....
http://members.xoom.com/HogHeavenML
Your Most Obedient Servant...
Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:13:52 PST
From: "Steve Stefely" <saddles@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Croatan response
Greetings to all,
I have monitored this list for a number of years and have been, in turn,
informed, entertained, chagrined and amused. I've never been moved to
express an opinion, offer a suggestion or congratulate a particularly
insightful comment until now.
I have no idea as to the identity of "J.D.", but his assessment of the
progression of history in the New World was definitely on the mark. If I
understood him correctly our ancestors were the ones guilty of any and all
wrongdoing, regardless of whether they were Europeans, Native Americans or
any other ethnic group. No one today should be expected to be held
accoutable (or need feel guilty) for "the sins of the father". And if
claiming "victim" status is valid then I, being of Slavic descent, should
expect to be entitled to all manner of sympathy, apology and recompense from
the Italian community. After all, the Romans totally dominated my
ancestors, enslaving thousands of them. I am even forced to bear the stigma
of the very name Slav (from the Latin designation for "slave"). Oh, shame
of shame! Imagine what this does to one's self esteem! Now, is this
ridiculous or what? And, as J.D. also mentioned, the mores of the time
determined what was considered right and wrong, regardless of what we may
think today. This neither excuses nor condones any certain behaviour.
History is just that - history. Better to study and learn from it than hold
it over anyone's head as some sort of sword of Damocles.
J.D. also made another astute observation in the organized, militaristic,
destructive force of the Iroquois. Research, research, research! They and
other Native Americans were certainly not averse to annihilating entire
tribes. More than one group was sent to extinction by their fellow
inhabitants after 1492, and it is anyone's guess as to how many had been
before that date. All humans possess their attributes and their
shortcomings; the Native Americans are no exception. It is as inaccurate to
portray them as "bloodthirsty redskins" as it is to view them as "Noble
Savages" or "Lo, the poor Indian".
I realize that this subject is off topic, but I wanted to commend J.D. and
to remind folks that history is history. One should learn from it but
unless one was personally involved in it (i.e. recent history) there is no
reason to feel guilty about it or use it to garner pity.
S.G. Stefely
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:18:13 -0600
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response
- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Stefely <saddles@hotmail.com>
To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com>
Date: January 25, 2000 2:15 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Croatan response
>History is just that - history. Better to study and learn from it than
hold
>it over anyone's head as some sort of sword of Damocles.
One thing I've noticed from my meager learning is that it has only been a
very few select individuals with certain personality traits throughout
history which have primarily caused history as we know it to occur as it
has. The rest of the population of the planet has only been "along for the
ride".
>J.D. also made another astute observation in the organized, militaristic,
>destructive force of the Iroquois.
Not only that, but the entire "league of nations" as it was known was
nothing more than a military alliance formed for the advantage of member
tribes, to the disadvantage of non-member tribes. It is interesting to note
that the animosity between some of the member tribes before the formation of
the league continued on after formation. But the benefit of being united
greatly outweighed the differences they had.
>I realize that this subject is off topic, but I wanted to commend J.D. and
>to remind folks that history is history. One should learn from it but
>unless one was personally involved in it (i.e. recent history) there is no
>reason to feel guilty about it or use it to garner pity.
Better yet, it would be wise to try and look ahead to determine what will
people be saying in the future about our times, and critisizing us for our
inaction, indifference, or partisipation in. Lets try and leave a legacy our
descendants will be proud of.
northwoods
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:31:54 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Blanket socks (was: Winter mocs)
Angela, I just found one more reference -"Having wrapped my feet
up in clean pieces of blanket {the only stockings worn in the interior} and
put on a pair of clean dry moccasins, I bethought me of the poor dogs, and
taking down some raw fish, went out to feed them." This quote by Paul Kane,
in Wanderings of an Artist Among the Indians of North America. He traveled
in Canada with HBC in 1845--48. You are quite the researcher on the North
country, we learn a lot from you. Jill
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:38:39 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
Hello, all;
Does anyone know of a web site where these two books are in print
on-line?
Journal of Rudolph Friederich Kurz, and F. Laroque's
journal?
Dean Rudy, if you read this, I REALLY want these on the A.M.M. web
site!
Jill
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:31:15 -0700
From: "Ron Chamberlain" <cstmzd@ida.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: LFFT Has Moved
For those of you with links.
The Lewis Fork Free Trappers website has moved to:
<a
href="http://freetrappers.homepage.com/>http://freetrappers.homepage.com/</a
>
Please update any links.
Thanks,
Ron
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:15:04 -0600
From: "Anne MacDonnald" <sabella3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
have you looked at the Gutenburg Project site?
it is worht a shot... got to http://www.askjeeves.com
and ask where it is... lost my bookmarks in the great
crash...
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <GazeingCyot@cs.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
> Hello, all;
> Does anyone know of a web site where these two books are in
print
> on-line?
>
> Journal of Rudolph Friederich Kurz, and F. Laroque's
> journal?
> Dean Rudy, if you read this, I REALLY want these on the A.M.M. web
> site!
> Jill
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:16:06 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <ad.miller@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
> Does anyone know of a web site where these two books are in
print
> on-line?
>
> Journal of Rudolph Friederich Kurz, and F. Laroque's
> journal?
I would suggest starting with www.amazon.com
Ad Miller
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:11:58 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
Jill,
I've known Dean to post every legal transcription of appropriate text anyone
has ever provided to him. The best way to get what we want is to do it and
post it for everyone else to enjoy. If you want something done right you've
got to do it yourself.
John...
At 06:38 PM 1/25/00 -0500, you wrote:
>=A0=A0 Hello, all;
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Does anyone know of a web site where=
these two books are in
print=20
>on-line?
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Journal of=
Rudolph Friederich Kurz,=A0=A0 and F. Laroque's=20
>journal?
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Dean Rudy, if you read this, I REALLY want these on=
the A.M.M. web=20
>site!
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Jill
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:37:59 -0600
From: "Anne MacDonnald" <sabella3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response
speaking of history.... on my refrigerator is a very atute observation.
''well behaved women never make history''
- - Eleanor Roosevelt.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Croatan response
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Stefely <saddles@hotmail.com>
> To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com>
> Date: January 25, 2000 2:15 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Croatan response
>
>
>
> >History is just that - history. Better to study and learn from it than
> hold
> >it over anyone's head as some sort of sword of Damocles.
>
>
> One thing I've noticed from my meager learning is that it has only been a
> very few select individuals with certain personality traits throughout
> history which have primarily caused history as we know it to occur as it
> has. The rest of the population of the planet has only been "along for the
> ride".
>
> >J.D. also made another astute observation in the organized, militaristic,
> >destructive force of the Iroquois.
>
> Not only that, but the entire "league of nations" as it was known was
> nothing more than a military alliance formed for the advantage of member
> tribes, to the disadvantage of non-member tribes. It is interesting to
note
> that the animosity between some of the member tribes before the formation
of
> the league continued on after formation. But the benefit of being united
> greatly outweighed the differences they had.
>
> >I realize that this subject is off topic, but I wanted to commend J.D.
and
> >to remind folks that history is history. One should learn from it but
> >unless one was personally involved in it (i.e. recent history) there is
no
> >reason to feel guilty about it or use it to garner pity.
>
> Better yet, it would be wise to try and look ahead to determine what will
> people be saying in the future about our times, and critisizing us for our
> inaction, indifference, or partisipation in. Lets try and leave a legacy
our
> descendants will be proud of.
>
> northwoods
>
>
>
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> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:36:43 -0700
From: tetontodd@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for books
Jill,
I have acopy of Larocques journal if you'd like to borrow it.
Todd
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:14:03 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter Mocs
Hello Capt. Lahti',
Sorry I had to step away from the campfire for awhile but it give me time to
further consider the conversation about mocs particularly winter mocs in
relation to the mountain man from 1800-1850 inclusive. Your right in your
post. I am inordinately proud of the state that give birth to the American
Mountain Men. Montana, Wyoming and Idaho are at the core of that movement
from the time of John Coulter and his sojourn 1807-1808 that defines the
extent of his winter camp and set the standard for furture mountain men to
set their mark in experience.
I think the type of moc worn closer to 1800 is represented on page 50 item D
and then by item C on the same page. For any of you who have the Crazy Crow
Trading Post you can see a picture of both types of mocs side by side. A
3rd moc A on the same page shows a 1850 style that can be used with 12 ought
beads and be authentic for the period by documentation through Fort Union
Trading Post. Prior to 1850 8 ought beads and bigger were in use.
Both of the early style mocs can be obtained in kits with patterns for under
20 bucks and a catalogue can be obtained at 1 800 786 6210 or email
crazycrow@texoma.net
This is a good source for some mountain man supplies. And a good place to
start for the beginning mountain man who wants to learn to make their own
foot gear. It is a big step in going from a first pair of everyday mocs to
winter mocs but practice will allow the maker to scale the operation and get
a good looking fit.
Badgerhole
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 02:46:30 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Winter Mocs
Where did you get your information on beads?
John...
At 10:14 PM 1/25/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello Capt. Lahti',
>
>Sorry I had to step away from the campfire for awhile but it give me time=
to
>further consider the conversation about mocs particularly winter mocs in
>relation to the mountain man from 1800-1850 inclusive.=A0 Your right in=
your
>post.=A0=A0 I am inordinately proud of the state that give birth to the=
American
>Mountain Men.=A0 Montana, Wyoming and Idaho are at the core of that=
movement
>from the time of John Coulter and his sojourn 1807-1808 that defines the
>extent of his winter camp and set the standard for furture mountain men to
>set their mark in experience.
>
>I think the type of moc worn closer to 1800 is represented on page 50 item=
D
>and then by item C on the same page.=A0 For any of you who have the Crazy=
Crow
>Trading Post you can see a picture of both types of mocs side by side.=A0=
=A0 A
>3rd moc A on the same page shows a 1850 style that can be used with 12=
ought
>beads and be authentic for the period by documentation through Fort Union
>Trading Post.=A0 Prior to 1850 8 ought beads and bigger were in use.
>
>Both of the early style mocs can be obtained in kits with patterns for=
under
>20 bucks and a catalogue can be obtained at 1 800 786 6210 or email
>crazycrow@texoma.net
>
>This is a good source for some mountain man supplies.=A0 And a good place=
to
>start for the beginning mountain man who wants to learn to make their own
>foot gear.=A0 It is a big step in going from a first pair of everyday mocs=
to
>winter mocs but practice will allow the maker to scale the operation and=
get
>a good looking fit.
>Badgerhole
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:57:55 -0700
From: Don Born <dborn@d20.co.edu>
Subject: MtMan-List: gloves
I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the
hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was
wearing on his hands during the winter?
Cheers,
Don
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:12:44 PST
From: "Kevin Pitman" <kpmtnman@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves
I am not sure on the accuracy part, but I have seen several pair of beaver
fur mittens kined with red trade wool and elk hide palms. Run a strip of
rawhide across the shoulders and you have a pair of "idiot" mittens.
YMOS,
Kevin
>From: Don Born <dborn@d20.co.edu>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@xmission.com
>Subject: MtMan-List: gloves
>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:57:55 -0700
>
>I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about the
>hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was
>wearing on his hands during the winter?
> Cheers,
> Don
>
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:47:27 -0600
From: "Anne MacDonnald" <sabella3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gloves
the next question.... ::laughing::
did his mom teach him to do this? [sorry, I just had to do this]
to be honest, it seems like a logical thing... and it is what I did in
colorado, when I Lived there in the high country...
I had a pair of down ski mittens... later I made a pair fo brain tan
mittens, and lined them with wool mittens, worked much better.... In fact,
I too had a braided leather strip, I used to pull the leather ones off, to
do things that required a bit of dexterity... mostly, though I sat on my
horse and shivered.
. Run a strip of
> rawhide across the shoulders and you have a pair of "idiot" mittens.
>
> YMOS,
> Kevin
>
>
>
> >From: Don Born <dborn@d20.co.edu>
> >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> >To: hist_text@xmission.com
> >Subject: MtMan-List: gloves
> >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:57:55 -0700
> >
> >I've learned a lot from all the post about winter moc's but what about
the
> >hands. Does anyone have any good info. on what the western trapper was
> >wearing on his hands during the winter?
> > Cheers,
> > Don
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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