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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, December 22 1999     Volume 01 : Number 432



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Very Well Spoken!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing
-áááááá MtMan-List: pre Christmas poem
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question, thoughts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:14 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays

Hello the to all on the list.  Just wanted to pass on my joy this A.M.
Yesturday was the last day of Black Powder Deer season here in western N.Y.
I have been hunting with a fine inexpensive cap lock Hawkens style for over
10 years.  I use it during shot gun season as well as Black Powder and it has
served me well.  But as my family and I recreate the French and Indian War
and Rev War period of the great fur trade era I have a 50 cal flinter that
had not gotten a deer.  I decided this year to only use it during Black
Powder season to see if I could make it earn its keep.

Well yesterday about 3:30 P.M. I was on top of a ridge and 8 deer crossed
down way ahead of me.  I waited and as luck would have it they came across
the ridge in my direction about 75 yards below me.  I compete a lot at camps
with this gun so I know I can hit at that distance so I let the first three
cross thru my only shooting lane and when the next past I pulled the trigger.
 As I had been out for over 2 hours and the air was moist there was a slight
hang fire.  But after decending to the deer trail I could clearly see that I
had a good arterial hit.  Now I have seen a deer that I shoot thru both lungs
and the heart run over a 1/3 of a mile so I new I would have a tracking job
on my hands before dark.  I followed the blood trail for over an hour threw
the leaves (most of the snow we had was gone) and at dusk my tri-focal
glasses and old eyes lost the trail.  So I hiked back to my house and got a
bite to eat, drink, flash lights and dry boots I was not going to waste a
deer and especially not the first with my flintlock.  My 14 year old, just
got his trappers license and has just started to hunt squirrels, had never
been out deer hunting (not of age in this state).  But he volunteered his
young eyes and a third flash light to help me.  I spent the time walking out
to where I had last seen the blood trail telling him how to track by walking
slowly to the side of the trail and marking the last blood before moving on
so you can retrace and start over if you loose the spot.  We walked (bent
over) up and down the gulleys and over the streams and with each pace Nathan
got better and better at spotting the blood drops in the leaves.  And soon he
was leading the search with me reminding him to move slow and not over heat
(the temperature was in the low teens with a good wind chill factor).  I had
to laugh as I watched my son follow the drops of blood so intently that he
did not even see my flash light on the dead deer 5 feet in front of him as he
tracked.  I remembered I did that with the vary first deer I ever shot, one
more step and I would have tripped over him.

Well he and I dragged the deer out to a clear place and field dressed it then
he went to get some assistance form a fellow hunter, mountain man, re-inactor
and damn good friend, who got dressed in his wooleys and helped us get the
biggest doe (we hunt for meat not wall hangings) I have ever shot out of the
gulley.  That same friend/brother taught my wife and I how to skin and
butcher our own deer and we were soon putting that skill to use as I had her
hung skined and packaged before Midnight.  Working under the beautiful
solstice moon.

But the reason I am writting this to the list is that on this beautiful
Winter Solstice ( first Full Moon/Solstice in 133 years) is to let you all
know that I find it wonderful to know that we/I can still learn and teach.  I
learned that with the flinter I need to pull the trigger a hair earlier so I
don't need to track so long.  But I also proved to myself that I can and will
make meat for my family with the same style of gun my fore fathers did.  And
my son found his place in the woods last night.  Nathan was so proud of his
ability to follow that blood trail and help his father.

So to everyone on this list, I have learned from everyone of you, and I would
hope that as that full moon rises tonight, we all remember that if we truely
beleave that the skills we have, and are learning, are important that we all
pass them on to as many people as we can.  Because as we do we can see
ourselves in the eyes of those we teach, as they trip over the deer.  And
remember also to always be willing to learn as than so you can grow as well.

Enjoy the solstice, Christmas, the New Year.  I remain

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:15:54 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing

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Wynn and Grethen,
    Lacing (depending on how you describe it) is both approved and
frowned upon. Having made three prize winning outfits (2 men and a
ladies') using only ties. Small left over pieces on leather cut into
what predates fringe, and tied though the leather about half to three
quarters of inch a part. But, was probably used more for repairs than
complete outifts in the fur trade peroid. Unless it is under survival
conditions. When you can turn out a outfit far faster than using real
sinew and unless you are close, you will never know. These outfits still
in use today and they are quite nice looking. If you are talking about
using the leather strips in a long running lace, no not at all. Many
outfits were made with the long lacing during the early days of
buckskinning and are not used today.
                                                          mike.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

>   Ronald Schrotter wrote:
>
> Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying
> sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced
> several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is
> authentic and looks good too.
>
> Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And is
> lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of
> the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial
> leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my
> intention. I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know.



- --------------AB9C529E6ADB1EA888F47034
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<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Wynn and Grethen,
<BR>    Lacing (depending on how you describe it) is both
approved and frowned upon. Having made three prize winning outfits (2 men
and a ladies') using only ties. Small left over pieces on leather cut into
what predates fringe, and tied though the leather about half to three quarters
of inch a part. But, was probably used more for repairs than complete outifts
in the fur trade peroid. Unless it is under survival conditions. When you
can turn out a outfit far faster than using real sinew and unless you are
close, you will never know. These outfits still in use today and they are
quite nice looking. If you are talking about using the leather strips in
a long running lace, no not at all. Many outfits were made with the long
lacing during the early days of buckskinning and are not used today.
<BR>
mike.

<P>Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <STYLE></STYLE>
Ronald Schrotter wrote:

<P>Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying
sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced several
inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is authentic
and looks good too.

<P>Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And
is lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was
of the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial
leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my intention.
I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know.</BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:28:25 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Very Well Spoken!

On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:58:52 -0500 (EST) [e-mail] (JON
MARINETTI) writes:
> No pilgrim JOINETH the AMM Brotherhood, only he that is CALLED of
> God
> the Great Spirit Father by an authorized AMM hiveranno?

Jon them are the unadulterated real words from the big maker ---lest we
forget his presence and his artwork that he created---the maker walk with
you in the new year and may you always have shining times past present
and future---



    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:10:59 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4C5C.76513940
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please don't think that your question was the cause of the recent heat.  =
Sometimes a thread will lead to some unexpected areas.  This phenomon is =
common on this list and you should not think that you caused a problem. =
Never hold back on a question for fear of where the original question =
will lead.  I hope your  question was answered to your satisfaction.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:02 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing


  Ronald Schrotter wrote:=20

  Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying =
sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced =
several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is =
authentic and looks good too.=20

  Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And is =
lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of =
the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial =
leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my =
intention. I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know.=20


- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4C5C.76513940
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Please don't think that your question was the cause of the recent=20
heat.  Sometimes a thread will lead to some unexpected areas.  =
This=20
phenomon is common on this list and you should not think that you caused =
a=20
problem. Never hold back on a question for fear of where the original =
question=20
will lead.  I hope your  question was answered to your=20
satisfaction.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 21, =
1999 11:02=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Lacing =
leather=20
  clothing</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>Ronald Schrotter wrote: </P>
  <P>Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by =
tying=20
  sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced =
several=20
  inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is authentic =
and=20
  looks good too. </P>
  <P>Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And =
is=20
  lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of =
the=20
  understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial =
leather being=20
  acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my intention. I =
admire the=20
  AMM and jus wanted to know. </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4C5C.76513940--


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:16:00 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: pre Christmas poem

So come, good men who toil and tire,
Who smoke and sip the kindly cup,
Ring round about the tavern fire
Ere yet you drink your liquor up;
And hear my simple songs of earth,
Of youth and truth and living things;
Of poverty and proper mirth,
Of rags and rich imaginings;
Of cock-a-hoop, blue-heavened days,
Of hearts elate and eager breath,
Of wonder, worship, pity, praise,
Of sorrow, sacrifice and death;
Of lusting laughter, passion, pain,
Of lights that lure and dreams that thrall...
And if a golden word I gain,
Oh, kindly folks, God save you all!
And if you shake your heads in blame...
Good friends, God love you all the same.

Last stanza Prelude
from Ballads of a Bohemian

Robert Service


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:38:20 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question, thoughts

what you say has much merit. Especially that "those three things do not a
mountain man make." Amen.
- -----Original Message-----
From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question, thoughts


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Cunningham <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, December 20, 1999 10:51 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question
>
>
>>I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. Both round and edible,
but
>>totally different. As well bring a prehistoric man here and try to make
>>comparisons with today's life styles. But your point is well taken.
>
>
>Since you bought it up, why don't we continue with that line of thinking
for
>a moment. I believe it may strike to the heart of the matter I have raised
>by asking what I did. We aren't so much comparing apples to oranges as we
>are comparing apples from now to apples from back then.
>Many people agree that the first people to inhabit and live off the land
>that the mountain men subsequently explored and mapped lived approx. 13000
>years ago and subsisted , as far as we know, primarily by hunting large
>paleo fauna like mammoths with spears. Some folks speculate, and there is
>circumstantial evidence, that they first traveled into north America via
the
>Bering strait and Alaska through an ice free corridor that may have
existed.
>Now what is interesting is that it has been accepted by many professionals
>that these first people traveled over, explored, most certainly mapped, and
>exploited the resources of,(some even think to the extinction of species),
>practically the entire continent in , what I consider, to be a very short
>time frame.
>Like 200 years. Two hundred years for small bands of individuals to travel
>over and explore most of the continental U.S.
>Can any similar comparisons be drawn to later time periods? Like the period
>from 1800-1850 for example? The scenario is interestingly similar. Small
>groups of men with vast amounts of unknown territory in front of them. New
>places to live with more game and possibly easier pickins.The pale hunters
>may not have been after beaver pelts but to say that they also had an
>economic incentives ,just as the fur trade provided later individuals,
would
>be a fair statement.
>The influx of people from the eastern U.S. in the 19th century caused
>numbers of certain species to decline in exactly the same way many
>archeologists think the demise of certain paleo animals occurred. The early
>pioneers were effective hunters.
>My whole point is this. I can't help but to believe that the very first
>pioneers and trail breakers,  who first explored the regions that the later
>fur trade encompassed were the same in many respects as the the folks that
>made the push to explore the same regions during the fur trade.
>Certain peculiar traits of human nature transcend race and time. The
>physical and moral qualities of the mountain men that I grew up reading
>about, and that made them my personal role models, were nothing new. These
>qualities were nesasary to them having been successful in there endeavors.
>Yes, I think the "spirit of the mountain man" has been around for a long,
>long time.
>Just as it is carried on by certain individuals today. Thankfully.
>The positive values that these mountain men, pioneers, explorers ,or
>whatever name you give them, these qualities that were "the most" important
>factor in the success or the failure of the tasks they chose to undertake,
>are what needs to be carried on.
>I believe that some of the present day folks who are carrying on the
>traditions I have been speaking about come from a wide range of social and
>economic conditions. I also believe that they don't all participate in
>living history or that the epitome of carrying on these traditions lie in
>that act. Maybe I am just trying to reconcile the fact that I don't, or
>can't, participate in an organization like the AMM, for example. However I
>don't feel like less of a man for it.
>It seems to me that a lot of folks kind of compete with each other to see
>who can dress in the most period correct fashion. Or have the most period
>correct outfit.
>Or be the most knowledgeable on period topics from first hand accounts.
>These are all admirable goals and  an interesting way to pass the time.
>But those three things combined do not a mountain man make. Its more than
>that.
>
>I sincerely  hope everyone the best of holidays,
>northwoods
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:57:37 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays

Congrats on makin Meat *grins*

I envy you your time with your son. Due to lawsuite over my mothers will,
etc... I no longer claim to have a son. It sounds like you are doing a great
job of raising him and teaching the lad.  Well done :)

Ad Miller



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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:23:10 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

What an interesting question-- how would the mountain men act today.  In my
research I found that the men like Bridger, Smith, Campbell, Sublette, and
others all shared many common traits:
    They loved to see new things and new places;
    They wanted to be free-- without restrictions by convention or government;
    They loved excitement;
    They had a well developed sense of honor;
    They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed;
    They were loyal;
    They were self-sustaining as much as  possible;
    They were symbiotic with nature;
    They believed in God-- as they understood God to be;
    They were restless;
    They had self-confidence;
    They were proud;
    They were helpful to newcomers, but, "did not tolerate fools" very well;
    They were patriotic and interested in politics (many discussions around
the Campbell, Sublette, Bridger campfires centered on Andrew Jackson, George
Washington, and Henry Clay's new ideas about the West);
    They worked hard and played hard;
    They were competitive;
    They had all the failings that all  humans have.

    With these credentials, they could be businessmen today (I certainly
would do business with them!); they could be entrepreneurs in many ways.
They are not likely to work a nine-to-five job, however.

    Steve Huss ([e-mail])


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:38:40 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

Steve, I think your post pretty well sums up the nature of the mountain man.
Wanting to see what was over the next hill or in the next valley is a big
one.  Thanks and Happy Holidaze.  W H Fuller

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:51:29 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

I agree totally that they shared many of these traits.
And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain
individuals.
For the benefit of us all.

Happy holidays!
northwoods

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question


>What an interesting question-- how would the mountain men act today.  In my
>research I found that the men like Bridger, Smith, Campbell, Sublette, and
>others all shared many common traits:
>    They loved to see new things and new places;
>    They wanted to be free-- without restrictions by convention or
government;
>    They loved excitement;
>    They had a well developed sense of honor;
>    They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed;
>    They were loyal;
>    They were self-sustaining as much as  possible;
>    They were symbiotic with nature;
>    They believed in God-- as they understood God to be;
>    They were restless;
>    They had self-confidence;
>    They were proud;
>    They were helpful to newcomers, but, "did not tolerate fools" very
well;
>    They were patriotic and interested in politics (many discussions around
>the Campbell, Sublette, Bridger campfires centered on Andrew Jackson,
George
>Washington, and Henry Clay's new ideas about the West);
>    They worked hard and played hard;
>    They were competitive;
>    They had all the failings that all  humans have.
>
>    With these credentials, they could be businessmen today (I certainly
>would do business with them!); they could be entrepreneurs in many ways.
>They are not likely to work a nine-to-five job, however.
>
>    Steve Huss ([e-mail])
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 99 16:06:37 -0700
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

         Reply to:   Re: MtMan-List: question
Well said.  Damn well said.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Huss931 wrote:
>What an interesting question-- how would the mountain men act today.  In =
my =
>research I found that the men like Bridger, Smith, Campbell, Sublette, =
and =
>others all shared many common traits:  =
>    They loved to see new things and new places;
>    They wanted to be free-- without restrictions by convention or =
government;
>    They loved excitement;
>    They had a well developed sense of honor;
>    They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed;=

>    They were loyal;
>    They were self-sustaining as much as  possible;
>    They were symbiotic with nature;
>    They believed in God-- as they understood God to be;
>    They were restless;
>    They had self-confidence;
>    They were proud;
>    They were helpful to newcomers, but, "did not tolerate fools" very =
well;
>    They were patriotic and interested in politics (many discussions =
around =
>the Campbell, Sublette, Bridger campfires centered on Andrew Jackson, =
George =
>Washington, and Henry Clay's new ideas about the West);
>    They worked hard and played hard;
>    They were competitive;
>    They had all the failings that all  humans have.
>
>    With these credentials, they could be businessmen today (I certainly =
>would do business with them!); they could be entrepreneurs in many ways.  =
>They are not likely to work a nine-to-five job, however.  =
>    =
>    Steve Huss ([e-mail])
>    =
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:47:49 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

> I agree totally that they shared many of these traits.
>  And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain
>  individuals.  For the benefit of us all.

To better clarify......these are two quotes from this month's American Hunter.

"The chase is among the best of all national pastimes;  it cultivates that
vigorous manliness for the lack of which in a nation, as in an individual,
the possession of no other qualities can possibly atone."  Theodore
Roosevelt, 1893

"The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I think
has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport
shooting culture."
Bill Clinton, 1999

The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from today's
society.  Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these
attributes to our own sons and daughters.  People of hard working stock, who
can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers,
farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black, the
American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their lives
and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive.  This
"vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into.  I think
we are losing our toughness as a nation.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:28:39 -0500
From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

I agree with you 100 percent

I asked my wife if she was worried about y2k and you know what she said?
"worry, why worry you can start a fire with rocks and a file, you spend all
your time in the woods, you hunt and skin your critters, you make all your
rendezvous clothing, you can purify water and you spent 7 years in the USMC,
I'm not worried about anything".  She then told me that all the neighbors
want to come over if there is any problems.

Yes America is getting very soft.


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question


> > I agree totally that they shared many of these traits.
> >  And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain
> >  individuals.  For the benefit of us all.
>
> To better clarify......these are two quotes from this month's American
Hunter.
>
> "The chase is among the best of all national pastimes;  it cultivates that
> vigorous manliness for the lack of which in a nation, as in an individual,
> the possession of no other qualities can possibly atone."  Theodore
> Roosevelt, 1893
>
> "The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I
think
> has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport
> shooting culture."
> Bill Clinton, 1999
>
> The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from
today's
> society.  Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these
> attributes to our own sons and daughters.  People of hard working stock,
who
> can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers,
> farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black,
the
> American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their
lives
> and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive.
This
> "vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into.  I
think
> we are losing our toughness as a nation.
>
> Dave Kanger
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:02:51 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question


>The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from
today's
>society.  Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these
>attributes to our own sons and daughters.  People of hard working stock,
who
>can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers,
>farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black,
the
>American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their lives
>and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive.  This
>"vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into.  I think
>we are losing our toughness as a nation.
>
>Dave Kanger

I'll second that observation...
Your comparison of Roosevelts quote and Clintons more recent statement is a
good example of the sad state of the powers that would control us if they
were able.
And I agree that the "vigor" you mentioned is not as prevalent as it once
was.
I think that is to be expected as a result of the industrialization of this
country.
As much as I ponder over what direction further developments in this country
may take us, I still have no idea what the future has in store.
Whatever happens, I do know that I will sincerely try to do my part by
attempting to follow and live by the traits that were earlier mentioned.

Happy holidays to everyone!
northwoods


>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:17:39 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

>"The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I
think
>has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport
>shooting culture."
>Bill Clinton, 1999


You had my attention until the last name... I thought you were talking about
men... not traitors, etc...

Ad Miller


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:22:29 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

My Father raised me that the way a man lived up to his family name, and a
man's word were the two most important things in his life.  I visited his
grave last week in Texas.  All the things he worked for he didn't take with
him -- but the things he stood for live on in the children he raised.

The things mountaineers stood for live on in the pages of printed books in
our libraries, but I suggest, they live on more completely in the way we live
our lives -- and in the way we raise our children.

Young men and women do not become heroes and American patiots watching
television, they become heroes by listening to the stories we share with them
about the lives of American patiots.

Merry Christmas.
Dick Summers


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:50:39 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question

Thank you for that Frank. I get the same kind of response here. And thank
you all for the messages that have shown up today: messages from Capt.
Lahti, Dave Kanger, Buck Conner, Dick Summers, Ad Miller, and Northwoods
especially. You made my evening, restored my desire to stay hooked up to the
list, and reminded me that there are some patriots left - men I can identify
with. Thank you all.

Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank V. Rago <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question


>I agree with you 100 percent
>
>I asked my wife if she was worried about y2k and you know what she said?
>"worry, why worry you can start a fire with rocks and a file, you spend all
>your time in the woods, you hunt and skin your critters, you make all your
>rendezvous clothing, you can purify water and you spent 7 years in the
USMC,
>I'm not worried about anything".  She then told me that all the neighbors
>want to come over if there is any problems.
>
>Yes America is getting very soft.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:47 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question
>
>
>> > I agree totally that they shared many of these traits.
>> >  And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain
>> >  individuals.  For the benefit of us all.
>>
>> To better clarify......these are two quotes from this month's American
>Hunter.
>>
>> "The chase is among the best of all national pastimes;  it cultivates
that
>> vigorous manliness for the lack of which in a nation, as in an
individual,
>> the possession of no other qualities can possibly atone."  Theodore
>> Roosevelt, 1893
>>
>> "The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I
>think
>> has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport
>> shooting culture."
>> Bill Clinton, 1999
>>
>> The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from
>today's
>> society.  Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these
>> attributes to our own sons and daughters.  People of hard working stock,
>who
>> can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers,
>> farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black,
>the
>> American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their
>lives
>> and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive.
>This
>> "vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into.  I
>think
>> we are losing our toughness as a nation.
>>
>> Dave Kanger
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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