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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:53:21 EST
From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question
In a message dated 12/20/99 northwoods@ez-net.com writes:
<< If some of the famous people of the mountain man era where alive today, >>
Probably trade the brown leather and horse fer black leather and a hog.
Longshot
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:11:59 -0800
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
Ratcliff wrote:
>
> Don't worry, Mr Colburn, it isn't likely that you will be asked to participate in our little "fraternity initiation", not in my party anyway. <snip> He left this world the same way he lived in it....full of himself and completely unaware of the low regard in which he was held by all with whom he came in contact. I always wondered what color the sky was in his world.
Brother Ratcliff,
You take the words right out of my mouth! I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:03:25 -0800
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
Jim Colburn wrote:
>
> Washtahay-
> one of these days I will learn not to try to have discussions on this
> topic. As you wish this to be continued on the list, here goes...
Jim,
Perhaps that is not the lesson you should learn. I submit, from what I
have seen you write, that what you need to learn is how to have
discussions on this topic. I read down through your resume and find no
mention of communication skills. Your resume is quit impressive and you
obviously have much to offer but you seem to lack the ability to offer
it in such a way that it will be absorbed by your lesser's. I'm
wondering what is behind the contentional/confrontational tone of your
musings? Have you been snubbed by members? Have your thoughtful and
graciously offered suggestions been rejected? Have you been
misunderstood and rejected as a child? It's a mystery.
Another question comes to mind. Why haven't you joined the organization
and made good faith efforts to change what you see wrong from within?
That seems to be a fairer way of dealing with the shortcomings you have
observed and I must admit do or have existed. There is much about other
organizations I am familiar with, but do not belong to, that I think
amiss. I don't go to their meetings and criticize or belittle them. If
I'm not willing to join and be part of the solution then I should keep
my council to myself and not be an ineffectual noise in the trees.
An example in point, and I quote: "It was so tempting to write a letter
comparing this kind of conduct to college fraternity initiations, poking
fun at anyone who would put up with this. But I won't."
What about that statement by you do you not find insulting?
I was tempted to write a letter telling you what an pompous ass I
thought you were (and had proven yourself to be) and include my
observations as to the lack of breeding or specifically the lack of
legitimate parentage I suspected you might suffer under. But I won't. So
don't be offended. You simply misunderstand me. Yea right!
I'll quote you one more time:
"Need I keep repeating this? As I said, I am seeking an
"organization that
> combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for serious historical
> recreation, and frequent time in the field". It has been my experience
> that the AMM-at least what I have seen of it-is not the group I am seeking."
You have hit the nail on the head. This is not the organization for you.
Not at this time. It does not meet your requirements and you should not
have anything more to do with it until it measures up. You are over
qualified. Too skilled, too learned, too independent, too accomplished.
The AMM is looking for men of good will who want to learn even if they
are already knowledgeable, who want to share even if they have little to
offer but themselves, who want to be part of a "brotherhood" and family
of like minded individuals even if they and the "brotherhood" are not
perfect but only trying to be. The AMM is looking for men who wish to
challenge themselves beyond where they have already gone. You've all
ready done it all. I am saddened that I must inform you that in my
considered opinion you do not fit in that category at this time. With
increased maturity, perhaps. But Jim, not right now. Sorry. I remain...
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
P.S. I got the joke about Clemen's comments. It was feeble.
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:06:11 -0600
From: farseer <farseer@swbell.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Archives?
AGGHHH!! My hard drive went under, and I lost a number of posts I'd been
savin for future reference. Is there an archive someplace? I dimly
recollect seeing mention of one. Any help would be appreciated.
todd
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Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:07:19 -0800
From: "Wayne & Terri" <wharper@sinclair.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
Brother,
If I remember right that is the best way to learn how to do it right or
learn you ain't doing it right and have to ask someone to show you the right
way.
3-strings
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:11:36 -0800
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
Tim Nevins wrote:
>
> I would like to talk to learn more about the AMM I am located in Central
> Califoria and was wondering if there was someone here locally I could talk
> more about it with
Tim,
If no one has come forth, by now you should know that any of a number of
us will chat with you off line. Just pick someone you feel comfortable
and ask them what you want to know. I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:37:10 -0800
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
northwoods wrote:
> So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a
> "brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a
> good one.
Northwoods,
Where does this question come from? I think it has pretty much been
clearly stated that the AMM does not require this. Was this question by
you put out before that was made clear? Thought it was made clear that
it is not even a mandatory requirement. Not to say that some folks may
actually think it is but that's not what it say's or how it reads. And
why the confrontational comment about "it being compared to a college
initiation? Is the concept of "your ball, your rules" so hard to
understand and accept with grace? Perhaps you aren't the guilty one. I
may have misunderstood you. Sorry.
>
> The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of people who we admire
> that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. <snip> But I often think that to
> truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices
> would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to
> dress like them.
The AMM, like similar organizations try's to take it beyond that. Such
organizations, invariably have a few joiners in amongst the doers.
Hardly fair to paint every member or even the organization with the same
brush because of a few (perhaps even not just a few).
And going on "camping trips "for a few months of the year
> don't quite cut it either.
Probably not. I'm fortunate to be fairly young for being retired. I
could go pretty near year round if I cared to. Not practical and not
something I personally want to do. I like going with a friend or two and
they all aren't retired like me. I have my own limitations as most of us
do and that probably keeps me from getting out any more than I do but
I'm not untypical of my fellows in this outfit. I get on the ground
probably 4 to 6 times a year, winter, spring, summer, and fall. I an my
companions do it as best we know how and as best as modern constraints
will allow. I don't see that as an apology, just a statement of fact. If
you get on the ground and do it more realistically than I do, more power
to you. You are to be envied.
> Some folks will never understand what it would have been like to have lived
> back then.
I suspect that the truth be known, none of us understands what it was
like to have lived back then. I don't think it is possible in a
practical way to do that in this age. You can come close but you can't
completely experience what they experienced and even more important, as
hard as you might try, you can not think the same thoughts the same way
as they did. I don't know of anyone who can totally forget what they
know as a modern man and then immerse themselves in another age.
I would compare it to certain archeologists today who spend a lot
> of time trying to analyze data and doing research and simply don't spend any
> time seriously trying to understand what it would have been like to be in
> the shoes of the person or persons they are studying.
That is probably the point where re-enactors and your archeologists part
company. One knows the history but the other knows the feel of the
ground better and perhaps some history too.
> How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with
> no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the
> only life they know.
Probably not many. As has been eloquently pointed out all ready it is
not something that even the mountain man did by choice. So why is it
even brought up? Confrontational?
> I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get
> carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there
> undertaking.
I think sometimes folks forget that no matter how involved in this sorta
thing you get or no matter how knowledgeable you are, we are still just
big boys playing "cowboys and indians" out in a much bigger field and
with much more deadly weapons than we did when we were kids. It needs to
be taken seriously but not too seriously. This is for the fun of it. I
remain...
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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