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hist_text-digest       Sunday, December 19 1999       Volume 01 : Number 428



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: linen thread
-áááááá MtMan-List: Doing it.  was brain tan
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
-áááááá MtMan-List: wide wale corduroy
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:51:25 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: linen thread

Ho the List,

I found some good linen sewing thread at Jas Townsend & Son
(http://www.jastown.com ) ...$6 for for 260yds on a wood spool...

Ymos,

Steve



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:59:15 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Doing it.  was brain tan

At 08:48 AM 12/19/1999 -0600, you wrote:

>So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a
>"brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a
>good one.

I consider that this requirement is part of the "doing" not the "talking".
Anyone can read about how to do it, and get an understanding.  But until
that hide comes out soft and nice, it's all hypothetical.

This requirement also stems from the surivial aspects of the primitive
skills.  If you were stuck, with this skill you could make clothing,
rawhide, etc.  Try chrome tanning out in the woods.......

>
>The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of  people who we admire
>that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. Personally I think
>the world would be a better place if more folks studied  history because I
>think  it puts the present in better perspective. But I often think that to
>truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices
>would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to
>dress like them. And going on "camping trips"for a few months of the year
>don't quite cut it either.

No one has said that this puts us in their shoes (or moccasins), but it sure
puts us a lot closer than not doing it.  And by reading the journals you
learn what they did and how them made it through.  Again, this is "doing"
and not "talking".

>How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with
>no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the
>only life they know.

First of all, how many of the old mountain men wintered alone.  Very few.  A
man alone in the Rockies was called "gone beaver" or today as a victim.
Even friendly tribes would rub out a lone man.  Wintering alone is pretty
much a Hollywood "Jerimiah Johnson" myth.

And I'm sure that there are folks that do it today.  But 1999 isn't 1829,
the conditions and all else is completely different.  How many of these
folks wintering use the tools and technology of the early 1800's?  And
finally, for them that do, good for them!

>I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get
>carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there
>undertaking.

Some do, sure.  Some don't.  But as you observed, it's their undertaking.......

What do you suggest is the way to go?

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:39:09 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

Washtahay-
At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Dennis wrote:
> We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it...
>Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground.

And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen wrote:
>Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round.  Not a lot
>of talking, just a lot of doing.
    Gentlemen, I am not questioning your time in the field.  However, it has
been my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members I have
met are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious historical
research".  The impression I have gained over the years is that this
something the majority of the members are not particularly concerned about.
 They have reached a "level of comfort" and see no need to progress
further.  In fairness, I have to admit that this impression is based on
everything from casual encounters to weeks in camp with AMM members,of whom
over the past twenty years I have only met maybe a hundred.

Dennis went on to write:
>And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM.  PERIOD.n And have on
>more than one occasion.
    I find that interesting; in more than one case my experience has been to
the contrary.  For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90) was
unable to deal with a medical emergency.
    After conversations with a number of former members (formally withdrawn or
just lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal.  Different
experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to human variance and
frailties.

>I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in
>the woods, both alone or with Brothers..
    Hope you had fun!  ;-)

>Mebby you should clarify your
>question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about requirements,
>those are bare minimums..
    Let me try to paraphrase my original question.  Would anyone aware of any
organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for
serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field please
contact me?


> And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join"....
    Well, regarding myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not
being willing to join any organization that would have me!
    Seriously, the AMM's requirements seem to do a good job of accomplishing
the multiple purposes of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing how
they work out as a member of the group on the trail, and allowing them to
gain field experience.  Applying the same requirements to experienced
people, rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me as being
similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to make sense, you just
have to do it".  The experience will be less meaningful for the experienced
person than the real pilgrim-what has the person with experience gained?
LongWalker c. du B.




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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:48:38 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

Jim,
    Would love to talk to you- talk to me off line.
                                                 mike.

Jim Colburn wrote:

> Washtahay-
> At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Dennis wrote:
> > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it...
> >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground.
>
> And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen wrote:
> >Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round.  Not a lot
> >of talking, just a lot of doing.
>         Gentlemen, I am not questioning your time in the field.  However, it has
> been my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members I have
> met are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious historical
> research".  The impression I have gained over the years is that this
> something the majority of the members are not particularly concerned about.
>  They have reached a "level of comfort" and see no need to progress
> further.  In fairness, I have to admit that this impression is based on
> everything from casual encounters to weeks in camp with AMM members,of whom
> over the past twenty years I have only met maybe a hundred.
>
> Dennis went on to write:
> >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM.  PERIOD.n And have on
> >more than one occasion.
>         I find that interesting; in more than one case my experience has been to
> the contrary.  For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90) was
> unable to deal with a medical emergency.
>         After conversations with a number of former members (formally withdrawn or
> just lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal.  Different
> experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to human variance and
> frailties.
>
> >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in
> >the woods, both alone or with Brothers..
>         Hope you had fun!  ;-)
>
> >Mebby you should clarify your
> >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about requirements,
> >those are bare minimums..
>         Let me try to paraphrase my original question.  Would anyone aware of any
> organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for
> serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field please
> contact me?
>
> > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join"....
>         Well, regarding myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not
> being willing to join any organization that would have me!
>         Seriously, the AMM's requirements seem to do a good job of accomplishing
> the multiple purposes of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing how
> they work out as a member of the group on the trail, and allowing them to
> gain field experience.  Applying the same requirements to experienced
> people, rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me as being
> similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to make sense, you just
> have to do it".  The experience will be less meaningful for the experienced
> person than the real pilgrim-what has the person with experience gained?
> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:07:34 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mr.. Colburn,
  Exactly what is your "experience" regarding the outfits and equipage =
of THE AMM members ?  How much "real research" have you done ?  Do you =
know what a AMM member's gear is supposed to emulate ?  Have you =
attended a AMM event ?  Or are you making these observations based on =
what you see at regular open rendezvous ?  Most us of carry the same =
stuff everyone else does when attending a rendezvous with the women and =
kids.  Granted, all AMM members do not carry museum quality gear, but to =
be sure, it is right for the time period.when they are at a AMM event.
  Your inference to Dennis' comment about trusting his life with any AMM =
member, seems to be that many AMM members are not trustworthy.  Sir, I =
consider that a insult.  To suggest that because a AMM member was not =
qualified to handle a medical emergency and therefore was not =
trustworthy is a ridicules assumption.
  You have been contacted by many folks who are members of an =
organization that pursues ongoing research and frequent time in the =
field, The members of THE AMM do just that.  As far as historical =
recreation, I don't know what you are looking for.
  You say you would not want to be a member of any organization that you =
could just join, Sir, you do not just join THE AMM.  You are invited to =
join.  Then you serve a appropriate time period as a pilgrim before =
gaining full membership, not to see if a person "fits in" but to gain =
the knowledge and experience expected of AMM members.  If you were as =
well informed as you think you are you would know that there are degrees =
of advancement in this organization and those are there to serve as a =
challenge for the more experienced members. =20
  You have had the benefit of access to the vast amount of knowledge =
available on this list  which is here for you to use due to the efforts =
of a AMM member, and yet you use it to refer to our requirements as " =
fratboy initiations".  Again Sir, I consider that a insult, and I feel a =
apology is in order, not to me but to our organization.=20
   Do not attempt to contact me off list because I will not respond, you =
opened this line of discussion on this list, so here it is.
Larry Pendleton AMM # 1572 Bossloper=20
 =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, December 19, 1999 11:57 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
   =20
   =20
    Washtahay-
    At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Dennis wrote:
    > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it...
    >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the =
ground.
   =20
    And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen wrote:
    >Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round.  =
Not a lot
    >of talking, just a lot of doing.
    Gentlemen, I am not questioning your time in the field.  However, it =
has
    been my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members =
I have
    met are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious =
historical
    research".  The impression I have gained over the years is that this
    something the majority of the members are not particularly concerned =
about.
    They have reached a "level of comfort" and see no need to progress
    further.  In fairness, I have to admit that this impression is based =
on
    everything from casual encounters to weeks in camp with AMM =
members,of whom
    over the past twenty years I have only met maybe a hundred. =20
   =20
    Dennis went on to write:
    >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM.  PERIOD.n And =
have on
    >more than one occasion.
    I find that interesting; in more than one case my experience has =
been to
    the contrary.  For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90) =
was
    unable to deal with a medical emergency. =20
    After conversations with a number of former members (formally =
withdrawn or
    just lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal.  Different
    experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to human =
variance and
    frailties. =20
   =20
    >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the =
mountains or in
    >the woods, both alone or with Brothers..=20
    Hope you had fun!  ;-) =20
   =20
    >Mebby you should clarify your
    >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about =
requirements,
    >those are bare minimums..
    Let me try to paraphrase my original question.  Would anyone aware =
of any
    organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts =
for
    serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field please
    contact me? =20
   =20
   =20
    > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just =
"join"....
    Well, regarding myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about =
not
    being willing to join any organization that would have me!
    Seriously, the AMM's requirements seem to do a good job of =
accomplishing
    the multiple purposes of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing =
how
    they work out as a member of the group on the trail, and allowing =
them to
    gain field experience.  Applying the same requirements to =
experienced
    people, rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me =
as being
    similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to make sense, you =
just
    have to do it".  The experience will be less meaningful for the =
experienced
    person than the real pilgrim-what has the person with experience =
gained?
    LongWalker c. du B.
     =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
    ----------------------
    hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Mr.. Colburn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  Exactly =
what is your=20
"experience" regarding the outfits and equipage of THE AMM =
members=20
?  How much "real research" have you done ?  Do you =
know=20
what a AMM member's gear is supposed to emulate ?  Have you =
attended a AMM=20
event ?  Or are you making these observations based on what you see =
at=20
regular open rendezvous ?  Most us of carry the same stuff everyone =
else=20
does when attending a rendezvous with the women and kids.  Granted, =
all AMM=20
members do not carry museum quality gear, but to be sure, it is right =
for the=20
time period.when they are at a AMM event.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  Your inference to Dennis' comment about =
trusting his=20
life with any AMM member, seems to be that many AMM members are not=20
trustworthy.  Sir, I consider that a insult.  To suggest that =
because=20
a AMM member was not qualified to handle a medical emergency and =
therefore was=20
not trustworthy is a ridicules assumption.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  You have been contacted by many folks who are =
members=20
of an organization that pursues ongoing research and frequent time in =
the field,=20
The members of THE AMM do just that.  As far as historical =
recreation, I=20
don't know what you are looking for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  You say you would not want to be a member of =
any=20
organization that you could just join, Sir, you do not just join THE =
AMM. =20
You are invited to join.  Then you serve a appropriate time period =
as a=20
pilgrim before gaining full membership, not to see if a person =
"fits=20
in" but to gain the knowledge and experience expected of AMM =
members. =20
If you were as well informed as you think you are you would know that =
there are=20
degrees of advancement in this organization and those are there to serve =
as a=20
challenge for the more experienced members.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  You have had the benefit of access to the =
vast amount=20
of knowledge available on this list  which is here for you to use =
due to=20
the efforts of a AMM member, and yet you use it to refer to our =
requirements as=20
" fratboy initiations".  Again Sir, I consider that a =
insult, and=20
I feel a apology is in order, not to me but to our=20
organization. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>   Do not attempt to contact me off list =
because I=20
will not respond, you opened this line of discussion on this list, so =
here it=20
is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Larry Pendleton AMM # 1572 =
Bossloper </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Jim Colburn <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, December 19, 1999 11:57 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    brain tan<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Washtahay-<BR>At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 =
- -0500,=20
    Dennis wrote:<BR>> We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, =
as you=20
    put it...<BR>>Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot =
of time=20
    on the ground.<BR><BR>And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen=20
    wrote:<BR>>Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all =
year=20
    round.  Not a lot<BR>>of talking, just a lot of =
doing.<BR>Gentlemen,=20
    I am not questioning your time in the field.  However, it =
has<BR>been=20
    my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members I =
have<BR>met=20
    are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious=20
    historical<BR>research".  The impression I have gained =
over the=20
    years is that this<BR>something the majority of the members are not=20
    particularly concerned about.<BR>They have reached a "level of=20
    comfort" and see no need to progress<BR>further.  In =
fairness, I=20
    have to admit that this impression is based on<BR>everything from =
casual=20
    encounters to weeks in camp with AMM members,of whom<BR>over the =
past twenty=20
    years I have only met maybe a hundred.  <BR><BR>Dennis went on =
to=20
    write:<BR>>And I would trust my life with ANY member of the =
AMM. =20
    PERIOD.n And have on<BR>>more than one occasion.<BR>I find that=20
    interesting; in more than one case my experience has been to<BR>the=20
    contrary.  For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90)=20
    was<BR>unable to deal with a medical emergency.  <BR>After=20
    conversations with a number of former members (formally withdrawn =
or<BR>just=20
    lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal. =20
    Different<BR>experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to =
human=20
    variance and<BR>frailties.  <BR><BR>>I personally spent =
better than=20
    3 months of last year in the mountains or in<BR>>the woods, both =
alone or=20
    with Brothers.. <BR>Hope you had fun!  ;-)  =
<BR><BR>>Mebby you=20
    should clarify your<BR>>question or ask it more specifically. If =
you are=20
    talking about requirements,<BR>>those are bare minimums..<BR>Let =
me try=20
    to paraphrase my original question.  Would anyone aware of=20
    any<BR>organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing =
efforts=20
    for<BR>serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field =

    please<BR>contact me?  <BR><BR><BR>> And I wouldn't want to =
be a=20
    member of a group that I could just "join"....<BR>Well, =
regarding=20
    myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not<BR>being =
willing to=20
    join any organization that would have me!<BR>Seriously, the AMM's=20
    requirements seem to do a good job of accomplishing<BR>the multiple =
purposes=20
    of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing how<BR>they work out =
as a=20
    member of the group on the trail, and allowing them to<BR>gain field =

    experience.  Applying the same requirements to =
experienced<BR>people,=20
    rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me as=20
    being<BR>similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to =
make=20
    sense, you just<BR>have to do it".  The experience will be =
less=20
    meaningful for the experienced<BR>person than the real pilgrim-what =
has the=20
    person with experience gained?<BR>LongWalker c. du B.<BR> =20
    <BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.xm=
ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:23:12 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

You are right again, Don.  A prospective member is judged by his heart =
and his attitude, not by his equipment and guns or how many requirements =
that may have already been met.  We take the measure of a man, not his =
plunder.
Lanney Ratcliff
#1585
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan


         Reply to:   Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
Where does it say that all requirements have to be met after being =
invited to join the AMM? =20
DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

R Lahti wrote:
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>> >> [e-mail] writes:
>> > And if we
>> >  waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and =
guns
>> >  in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not =
of made
>> >  it in our ranks.
>
>Dave Kanger offers:
>> >> If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted =
to join,
>> would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again =
during his
>> probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver.
>> >> Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again.
>
>Brothers and Friends,
>
>This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate
>member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where he
>was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to
>pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership thought
>he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that
>membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new to
>the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to continue =
to
>grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the
>Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on it
>such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond
>where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) and
>actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with AMM'ers
>in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what he
>wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt he
>was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to full
>membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to
>ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they would
>qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before I
>joined.
>
>Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head to
>Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to do
>what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do him
>in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would
>continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic
>requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a
>winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or old
>hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend time
>and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had not
>bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin the
>first time.
>
>I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one who
>had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic
>requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. As
>a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal clothing
>items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not ask
>for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my
>party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished
>mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to
>join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the
>requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just as I
>did. >
>A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for becoming =
a
>valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills =
and
>gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such a
>fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need to
>or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is =
BTW,
>no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has little =
in
>the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make it
>of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to get
>that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more
>importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as our
>guest. >
>BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade
>Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely no
>proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I
>think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing some
>period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in
>Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have called
>for a different approach. >
>I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" =
and
>strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will dry
>up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic requirements
>are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the
>newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM and
>cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain...
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti' #1719 >Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade
>AMM
>
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Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:04:30 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

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To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather clothes =
being required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first requirement =
for advancement beyond Pilgrim status:
"...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and HAND MADE =
accoutrements.  These must be researched for authenticity of the =
1800-1840 period and must be of a type which would have  been seen on =
men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains.
(a.)  Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other accoutrements that =
would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need =
not be hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today."

You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any kind, brain =
tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and accoutrements =
must be hand made by the man who wears them.  There are many references =
in Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and flannel shirts and =
traders' inventories commonly listed ready made fabric clothing.  While =
leather clothes were seen everywhere, the use of leather by Mountaineers =
was by no means 100% and is NOT required for membership in AMM.  =20
My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one pair of very =
wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, canton =
flannel and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool capote =
and an elk skin coat.  I have nothing against leather garments and I =
might one day brain tan enough hides to make some, but for now I am =
satisfied with what I have.....which meets AMM requirements.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
AMM #1585


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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather clothes =
being=20
required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first requirement for=20
advancement beyond Pilgrim status:</DIV>
<DIV>"...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and HAND =
MADE=20
accoutrements.  These must be researched for authenticity of the =
1800-1840=20
period and must be of a type which would have  been seen on men in, =
or=20
moving to, the Rocky Mountains.</DIV>
<DIV>(a.)  Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other accoutrements =
that=20
would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need =
not be=20
hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any kind, =
brain=20
tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and accoutrements =
must be=20
hand made by the man who wears them.  There are many =
references in=20
Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and flannel shirts and traders'=20
inventories commonly listed ready made fabric clothing.  While =
leather=20
clothes were seen everywhere, the use of leather by Mountaineers was by =
no means=20
100% and is NOT required for membership in AMM.   </DIV>
<DIV>My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one pair of =
very=20
wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, canton =
flannel=20
and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool capote and an =
elk skin=20
coat.  I have nothing against leather garments and I might one day =
brain=20
tan enough hides to make some, but for now I am satisfied with what I=20
have.....which meets AMM requirements.</DIV>
<DIV>YMOS</DIV>
<DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
<DIV>AMM #1585</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:59:33 -0600
From: "John McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: wide wale corduroy

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After reading Brother Lanney's missive about having wide wale corduroy ( =
totally period correct ) pants, it prompted me to ask if anyone on the =
list where I might find same in bulk yardage?  Thank you, in advance, =
for any information.  Long John

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<HTML><HEAD>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>After reading Brother =
Lanney's=20
missive about having wide wale corduroy ( totally period correct ) =
pants, it=20
prompted me to ask if anyone on the list where I might find same in bulk =

yardage?  Thank you, in advance, for any information.  Long=20
John</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:11:30 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan

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Lanney,
  To add to your well put comment, the trappers of that time did not =
wear leather by choice.  It was a neccessity because that's all they =
had. =20
Pendleton
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Sunday, December 19, 1999 2:58 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan
   =20
   =20
    To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather clothes =
being required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first requirement =
for advancement beyond Pilgrim status:
    "...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and HAND MADE =
accoutrements.  These must be researched for authenticity of the =
1800-1840 period and must be of a type which would have  been seen on =
men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains.
    (a.)  Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other accoutrements that =
would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need =
not be hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today."
   =20
    You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any kind, =
brain tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and =
accoutrements must be hand made by the man who wears them.  There are =
many references in Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and flannel =
shirts and traders' inventories commonly listed ready made fabric =
clothing.  While leather clothes were seen everywhere, the use of =
leather by Mountaineers was by no means 100% and is NOT required for =
membership in AMM.  =20
    My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one pair of =
very wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, =
canton flannel and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool =
capote and an elk skin coat.  I have nothing against leather garments =
and I might one day brain tan enough hides to make some, but for now I =
am satisfied with what I have.....which meets AMM requirements.
    YMOS
    Lanney Ratcliff
    AMM #1585


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lanney,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>  To add =
to your well=20
put comment, the trappers of that time did not wear leather by =
choice.  It=20
was a neccessity because that's all they had.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pendleton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Ratcliff <<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, December 19, 1999 2:58 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    brain tan<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV>To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather =
clothes=20
    being required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first =
requirement for=20
    advancement beyond Pilgrim status:</DIV>
    <DIV>"...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and =
HAND=20
    MADE accoutrements.  These must be researched for authenticity =
of the=20
    1800-1840 period and must be of a type which would have  been =
seen on=20
    men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains.</DIV>
    <DIV>(a.)  Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other =
accoutrements=20
    that would normally have required the work of a specialized =
craftsman need=20
    not be hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased=20
    today."</DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV>You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any =
kind,=20
    brain tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and=20
    accoutrements must be hand made by the man who wears =
them.  There=20
    are many references in Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and =
flannel=20
    shirts and traders' inventories commonly listed ready made fabric=20
    clothing.  While leather clothes were seen everywhere, the use =
of=20
    leather by Mountaineers was by no means 100% and is NOT required for =

    membership in AMM.   </DIV>
    <DIV>My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one =
pair of=20
    very wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, =
canton=20
    flannel and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool =
capote and=20
    an elk skin coat.  I have nothing against leather garments and =
I might=20
    one day brain tan enough hides to make some, but for now I am =
satisfied with=20
    what I have.....which meets AMM requirements.</DIV>
    <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
    <DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV>
    <DIV>AMM #1585</DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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