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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #420 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, December 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 420 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: talking turkey -áááááá MtMan-List: OT-Cross Canada Solo Kayak Trip -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Packs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packs -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: talking turkey -áááááá MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. -áááááá MtMan-List: Buckskinner? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packs -áááááá Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs -áááááá Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs -áááááá MtMan-List: aphisamores ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:39:57 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT john cramer---your posting was outstanding---concure with mr crocket---I hope that doesnt make me a radical but I gave a total of 34 years to this country in the military both in the active and reserves and crockets story really hit home especially since I spent 6 years in washington dc in the pentigon---nuff said thanks for such a good historical posting - ---i am in the process of forwarding it to my congressman and other parties who should appreciate it--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 00:32:17 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT Hawk, Thanks for your comments but it is Mr. Crockett and Mr. Bunce who's words= are deserving of praise.=A0 Certainly a view of the Constitution popularly= poo-pooed by every good intention.=A0 Plain thinking and common sense; whatever= happened? Bye the bye, since we're OT; I've been using that Turkey call you made; finally.=A0 Works good - nice size; it's handy in a pouch.=A0 Been chatting= a few long beard birds up; ain't got one in range, in season --- yet.=A0 Nice, the broad range of tones, yelps and chatter you can coax out of it.=20 It talks turkey.=20 A term that meant something to Mr. Crockett and Mr. Bunce. Principled men. John... At 07:39 PM 12/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >john cramer---your posting was outstanding---concure with mr crocket---I >hope that doesnt make me a radical but I gave a total of 34 years to this >country in the military both in the active and reserves and crockets >story really hit home especially since I spent 6 years in washington dc >in the pentigon---nuff said thanks for such a good historical posting >---i am in the process of forwarding it to my congressman and other >parties who should appreciate it--- >=A0=A0=A0 "HAWK" Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:33:31 -0800 From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: talking turkey - ----- Original Message ----- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:32 PM Subject: The mention of turkey call. While squirrel hunting in Southeast Ohio "turkey not in season" and setting under a tree, I heard a turkey off in a distance. The bird was coming my way. I patiently waited. Closer, closer it came. Around a bend in the path came a nice looking tom. It was still coming towards me. The tom stopped and turned to look sideways and then I gave a cluck with my turkey call. I`m not sure what I said, but you could see the dirt fly as the ole tom left the area. I thought I was good at useing a turkey call. While at work and playing with my turkey call I call in several of my coworkers. No hesitation on their part they just came straight in. My mistake, I guessed a turkey was a turkey. Forgot to take inconsideration domesticated and wild. Although some of these domestic one talk as if they are wild. (GGGGGGGGG) (VBGGGGGGG) > > Bye the bye, since we're OT; I've been using that Turkey call you made; > finally. Works good - nice size; it's handy in a pouch. Been chatting a few > long beard birds up; ain't got one in range, in season --- yet. Nice, the > broad range of tones, yelps and chatter you can coax out of it. > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 09:48:21 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg <jal@sgi.com> Subject: MtMan-List: OT-Cross Canada Solo Kayak Trip Although this is a modern adventure, I thought some of you might be interested. Jim >Ilya Klvana, a wildlife biology student at McGill University, completed >his cross-Canada solo kayak journey on November 26. Starting in mid May >in Prince Rupert, BC in his hand made kayak, Ilya crosed continental >divides, snowfields, 135 portages and turned 21 along the way. His >daily journals and many photographs from the trip are available at >http://www.mcgill.ca/kayak/ >Congratulations Ilya!! We're proud to be one of your sponsers. >-- > For the most comfortable way that you can carry your canoe > or kayak and gear, check out http://www.knupac.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 08:56:35 -0700 From: "Sickler, Louis L" <louis.l.sickler@lmco.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Packs Mick, Here is a compilation of what was on this list a while back..................... Allen, I have experimented with many different styles of carrying way too much stuff. I have found several methods which work well. Depending on length, type of trek, etc... some work better than others. On a 1-2 day trip a simple haversack works well. I become annoyed at too many straps criss-crossing my body. Canteen, haversack, shooting pouch, powder horn, bed roll strap...TOO many darned straps. I use a belt pouch for shooting bag. I can carry a small powder horn in it. If I'm carrying a comfortable camp I use a back pack ,with bed roll tied on top of it. Recently I have made myself a set of saddle bags, with matching pommel bags. I made it so the pommel bags tie to the saddle bags. I like this arrangement as it gives me two larger bags, and two smaller bags- all in one unit. I don't have a horse, so I carry them over my shoulder. At a walk in event I carry this set over one shoulder, and my bedroll strap over the other shoulder. Pistol, axe, knife, pouch are all on my belt. Longer gun is in my mitts. Tom Nichols , in Ca., makes a neat rawhide box back pack. I have one of them and it works quite well. It is a 19" x 12" x 8" rawhide box with shoulder straps. The hair is left on against your back. My favorite is the saddle bags, because it's easier to organize ones gear with the 4 different bags. I'm interested in hearing of others set ups.... Hardtack =========================== Allen, when it comes to carrying my equipment, I always seem to be changing what I use. If going on a short walk into a camp or a rendezvous, a cloth pannier set up (one piece) is used with smaller bags in it. My bedroll is always separate. I agree with most, a horse makes the carrying easy- but then you need to take care of the horse. When in a hiking mode, two haversacks are used. One for the food/ cooking items, one for changes of clothes (sox/ maybe extra shirt/ stocking hat and misc. needs).I find that the haversacks are close to what is called the "possible bags" and they do expand if needed. =================================== Allen, I forgot to mention that my pack is 14" wide x 17" tall x 4" deep. This is my second one, first was even bigger. Made it with a heavy hemp canvas as I felt it was more authentic than cotton canvas. Bottom of the pack is completely reinforced with a piece of leather extending an inch up the front and back. Strap attachments are reinforced on the top with a piece of leather on the inside of the pack. After construction I waterproofed it with a mixture of boiled linseed oil and powdered paint in a burnt sienna color. The bag is slightly stiff, but completely impervious to rain and snow. I made sure the linseed oil was neutralized before using by boiling it with some limestone added, then testing it with ph testing strips. Todd Glover ================================================ As to "tote'n that bale", I have run the gamut from pack basket to bedroll. In-between I've used simple rucksacks and back boards with a pack attached. They all seem to have their good points and short comings. Some things I've learned the hard way and others I've learned from listening to others (and I'm still listening) but for my money....... The bottom line for me is simply that I do not have regular access to a horse or pack animal. So whether the NW Co. boys or HBC lackeys or Rocky Mt. Company hired hands or even the few free trappers, had horses to carry their gear or not, I don't! So given my physical infirmities (Old Age plus dissipation and abuse) and my need to hump my camp on my back, I am for working on a lighter and lighter load. The bigger my carrying container is, the more junk I can carry and the closer to the road I camp. That's not what this is supposed to be about so I eliminated the pack basket early on as being clumsy and capable of carrying too much stuff. One of my camp mates, Crawdad, carries one and we let him cause he always brings in a big roast marinated in some secret sauce stored in a pot in his pack basket. He is a good sharer too. Now that Lee fella is a strong young man and can get away with carrying half the contents of his garage. <G> I can't (He'll break down eventually <G>). Next I tried the back board with attached pack bag. That works fairly well and I still use it if the load is needing to be on the heavy side (because of the need for another blanket or whatever). It is made of cedar uprights and oak cross bucks all rawhided together with wide leather shoulder straps. It has canvas bands across at the top and bottom to keep the wood parts off my back. It is fairly comfortable to carry. I also have a rucksack/knapsack with attached shoulder straps made very similar to what Teton Todd describes. It's made of heavy linen canvas, waterproofed with bee's wax and about 14" wide by 16" tall give or take. It is not gusseted so it is a simple envelope with a button down flap and strengthened like Teton's with leather across the bottom and top back. At the moment it resides on the pack frame. It can be removed and used as a rucksack and has been but I found that carrying things like a rolled up blanket, coat and what have you made the load somewhat clumsy and it works better with a heavy load if it is mounted on the pack frame. By itself it makes a great day pack and with warm weather camps and just the one blanket it works fine. Any heavier load and it goes back on the pack frame. I agree with that aspect of Hardtacks offering. Pack frames are the most comfortable for fairly heavy loads. Much more so than the pack basket. I also have a haversack with one cross body strap that I am trying to go through and lighten up as to it's normal contents. It is close to the same size as the ruck sack but wider than tall and otherwise made the same of the same materials. It seems to work good by itself as a day pack and this fall I used it with a separate bed roll slung to the same shoulder with some success going into our fall hunting camp (hopefully the site of the AMM 2000 Western). I didn't find that arraignment as troublesome as I have heard it to be. Using the bed roll and single cross body strap to carry my food sack, pots, extra mocs, wool tam and little else, rolling it long and tight and belting the shoulder strap to each end made it ride across my back without the expected tendency to slide around in front. I wore the haversack on the same shoulder but let it hang on the side rather than in back. I carried a canteen on that same side and my shooting pouch and horn on the other side. My belt contained my camp hatchet, knife, waterproof fire kit, and camera. I walked with Tulle in hand. It wasn't an unworkable load. I don't carry a pistol because I find them to be too heavy for the utility they offer. Incidentally I load myself in the reverse order of stuff I can get along without and still survive. So first I put on the belt with it's stuff, then the pouch and horn and I like a standard sized neck knife under everything and tucked in my shirt front. Then I put on the haversack, the canteen and finally the bedroll or back pack or rucksack. If I need to shed stuff in a hurry, I can flip off down to the bare minimum fairly quick. I am presently carrying some parched corn/jerky and some small items like an extra fire kit and meds in my haversack. There are still some things in my whole outfit that need a second and third look at to see if I really need them. But though I have been doing this for quit a few years I am coming to the realization that my enjoyment of this activity is not measured by how many "toys" I can get into camp but how easily "I" can make it into camp. That means leaving lots of "toys" at home and just carrying the necessities. Things change when I get to use the bateau, sled or am unbelievably lucky enough to find a horse wandering around that will let me catch and pack it. So for what it's worth, that's the way I do it. I know that historically our idols had horses to pack their stuff. And I am aware that there is a dearth of references to "packs" of any kind. Most of us aren't mounted. There is no sense, as far as I can see, in pretending that I am a Mt. Man looking for my horse and carrying all the stuff that a regularly mounted person would carry "in case I find my horse". I'm afoot and likely to remain so. Perhaps I'm not a full fledged Rocky Mt. Trapper because of that. But I do like playing this game and I do like camping with my friends and if that means adapting the ways of another group of frontiersmen (read long hunter) then that is what I will have to do. The ranks of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper were filled with former eastern frontiersmen and such folks were in the Rockies perhaps even before Lewis and Clark. Sorry for the editorial. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ============================ In Muzzleloader Magazine, May/June 1996 is pictured an oil painting by A.J. Miller showing two trappers, one with a knapsack with shoulder straps and his blanket tied on top. In the next issue, on page 38, a reader speculated that the pack may have been a military item or copy of one, since it was like their 1830's dragoon regiment packs. One story of a mountaineer carrying a pack was written by Henry Brackenridge who heard it from Manuel Lisa...." This man[John Colter] with a pack of 30 pounds weight, his gun and some ammunition, went upwards of 500 miles to the Crow nation" JILL ======================================================== Hope this helps. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: The Sweeneys [SMTP:angus@lostsierra.net] > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 9:28 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Packs > > Hello List, > > Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally by > canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during > the > 1820-1840 era. All the info I can find on packs refer to the type used > during the French and Indian War, were these still being used? Any info > would be greatly appreciated. See you down the trail. > Mick > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1999 08:04:34 -0800 From: Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packs On Sun, 05 December 1999, The Sweeneys wrote: > > Hello List, > > Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally by > canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during the > 1820-1840 era. All the info I can find on packs refer to the type used > during the French and Indian War, were these still being used? Any info > would be greatly appreciated. See you down the trail. > Mick MICK, MANY WILL QUOTE THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF BACKPACKS, HAVERSACKS, PACK BASKETS, SADDLE BAGS, ETC. (ACCORDING TO LAST SIMILAR QUESTION ON THE SAME). THE ONE ITEM NOT MENTIONED BEFORE AND ONE I HAVE FOUND WORKS VERY NICE WHETHER ON HORSE, OR WATER VESSIL IS A PORT-MAN-TOU (EXCUSE THE SPELLING). WITH THIS UNIT AND A BEDROLL I CAN CARRY EVERYTHING OTHER THAN SHOOTING BAG, CANTEEN AND SMALL HAVERSACK WITH DAY RATIONS - ALL OF WHICH ARE HUNG FROM THE SHOULDERS IN A CROSSED ARRANGEMENT. BOTH THE BEDROLL AND THE PORT-MAN-TOU LAY SIDE BY SIDE EQUALLING THE LOAD IN A CANOE, PLUS THE MAN-TOU IS EASY TO RETRIEVE ITEMS FROM. FOR SHORT DISTANCES IT'S NOT BAD TO CARRY BEDROLL ON ONE SHOULDER AND THE PORT-MAN-TOU ON THE OTHER WHEN MOVING INTO A CAMP WITHIN A 1/2 MILE OR SO FROM IRON MULE. OTHERWISE I USE A PAIR OF LARGER HAVERSACKS WITH BEDROLL ROLLED AND TIED ENDS TOGETHER TO BE CARRIED OVER SHOULDER LEAVING HANDS FREE FOR RIFLE, ETC. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 06:48:51 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: talking turkey JOHN--- sounds like you got them real tree turkeys at the office-(GBG)--you should have made a purr or a feeding call---(best guess) the yelp will make them hit the road almost ever time---any light sound would also probably been ok------not good in a tight turkey situation one thing also if the turkey spotted you they will not be long for the world and out of the area---real spooky at times---fast movement will put them in the air and off to no mans land--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 1999 07:06:01 -0800 From: Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> Subject: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. Members, Over the last few years we have seen a few members author several books, tapes, etc. of which have been interviewed from time to time. We have a few of these folks still with us and several have moved on to other lists for one reason or another. One gentleman that is a regular on the Hist_list with wonderful references, great documented information and so on - is Dr. John L. Allen. John is a student of Lewis & Clark and has traveled in their footsteps in an attempt to experience these gentlemen's lives and the lives of the Corps of Discovery members, as has several of us done over the years. Dr. Allen wrote a book about these gentlemen and their adventure, yet I have never seen anything about this great resource book, well written, with 47 maps and a wealth of information on this event. This is a "must" have book for any reenacter's library that's involved in the development of land west of the Mississippi, western travel, the fur trade or westward movement. The name of this book is: "LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST" by John Logan Allen. Dover Publications, Inc., New York # 0-486-26914-0 (pbk.) Originally published in 1975 and now the Dover edition, published 1991 is a gem that I, myself have over looked for some unknown reason, now found and feel that you too, should be made aware of this important information and guide that follows these captains across this great country. This book focuses on Lewis and Clark's epic journey of 1804-1806, following the expedition over the Rocky Mountains to the coast with information on the maps, plants, wildlife, etc. - wait until you see the detail on these maps. This would be a great Christmas present, pick one up for that special person or for yourself (that's a must do). John have you written anything else, I hope this wasn't the only one, brother you did an excellent piece of work. I started reading your book last night and had to be told to go to bed (like a kid), hope this short review is with your approval, you should be very proud of this, I'm proud we the folks on this list know you through this list. Thank you for making my day, this is great reading. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 09:20:28 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg <jal@sgi.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Buckskinner? Here are a couple of replies from soc.history.living, I replied to someone wondering what a Buckskinner was and got the second reply, thought you might find it humerous. Jim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:25:42 -0500 From: "John L. Allen" <johnlallen@uconn.cted.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. Thanks for the kind words, Buck. Your recommendation and review made MY day. And yes, I've written a bunch of other stuff--but most of it consists of fairly dry articles in professional journals, along with some textbooks and atlases designed for college students. One thing that might be of interest is a 3-volume work on North American Exploration (University of Nebraska Press,1997) that covers exploration from the first Norse contacts around 1000 AD down to the end of the 19th century. The third volume contains two lengthy chapters on the explorations of the Canadian and American fur trade in the 19th century. I'm now in the finishing stages of a book on the explorations of the Rocky Mountain fur trade from 1806 to 1845 (beginning with John Colter and concluding with the travels of John Charles Fremont, the "Pathfinder" who was guided by former members of the fur trade). This is a logical "sequel" to the Lewis and Clark book and will use pretty much the same techniques for examining the mountain men's knowledge of western geography of the West, what kinds of maps they made, and how their geographical information got passed on to other Americans by the middle of the 1800s. Conventional historical "wisdom" is that the mountain men didn't impart much formal information. I disagree with that and have located a considerable number of published maps and descriptive essays in geography books, travel narratives, newspapers, magazines, government documents, etc. from the first half of the 1800s that relied heavily on information from mountain men. Hopefully, the book will go to the publisher this coming spring and will be available about a year after that. I'll keep the list posted on this since this is a book that will be directly of interest to most of you. Thanks again for your review. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net - ----- Original Message ----- From: Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> To: Dean Rudy's "hist_list" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; American_Mountain_Men <ammlist@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 10:06 AM Subject: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. > Members, > > Over the last few years we have seen a few members author several books, tapes, etc. of which have been interviewed from time to time. We have a few of these folks still with us and several have moved on to other lists for one reason or another. > > One gentleman that is a regular on the Hist_list with wonderful references, great documented information and so on - is Dr. John L. Allen. John is a student of Lewis & Clark and has traveled in their footsteps in an attempt to experience these gentlemen's lives and the lives of the Corps of Discovery members, as has several of us done over the years. > > Dr. Allen wrote a book about these gentlemen and their adventure, yet I have never seen anything about this great resource book, well written, with 47 maps and a wealth of information on this event. This is a "must" have book for any reenacter's library that's involved in the development of land west of the Mississippi, western travel, the fur trade or westward movement. > > The name of this book is: > "LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST" by John Logan Allen. > Dover Publications, Inc., New York # 0-486-26914-0 (pbk.) > > Originally published in 1975 and now the Dover edition, published 1991 is a gem that I, myself have over looked for some unknown reason, now found and feel that you too, should be made aware of this important information and guide that follows these captains across this great country. > > This book focuses on Lewis and Clark's epic journey of 1804-1806, following the expedition over the Rocky Mountains to the coast with information on the maps, plants, wildlife, etc. - wait until you see the detail on these maps. > > This would be a great Christmas present, pick one up for that special person or for yourself (that's a must do). > > John have you written anything else, I hope this wasn't the only one, brother you did an excellent piece of work. I started reading your book last night and had to be told to go to bed (like a kid), hope this short review is with your approval, you should be very proud of this, I'm proud we the folks on this list know you through this list. > > Thank you for making my day, this is great reading. > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:11:31 EST From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. Dear John and Buck, I am glad to see your interest in books about mountain men. I am going to look for your book, John. I am looking forward to the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade book. I just finished a novel on Robert Campbell : Irish Mountain Man: The Story of Robert Campbell. It will be available in January. I hope you will look at him when you are working on the fur trade at that time. I wrote his biography for my Ph.D. dissertation-- and I have tried to make it readable for the general public and keep honest with the history. His journals ran into the hundreds of pages and I have had access to over of his personal 300 letters. Campbell and Sublette really kept the small fur trapper in business and helped them obtain a fair price for their goods when others (like Chouteau) tried to take advantage of them. It's interesting to know that Jim Bridger did not trust banks-- he had Campbell take care of all his finances! Campbell understood the code of the mountain man and kept true to his friends-- mountain men and Indians-- all his life. It was really refreshing to find such a man in history. Good luck. Keep me informed as to where I can get your book when it is finished. I am developing a course on the American West for the college where I teach. Stephen Huss (Huss931@aol.com) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 09:38:06 +0000 From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packs The Sweeneys wrote: >=20 > Hello List, >=20 > Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally= by > canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during= the > 1820-1840 era. Brothers, I passed along to some of my companions what we have already contributed to this discussion and these are a couple of the answers I received. I think you may find them of interest and worthy of further discussion. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' First from Gary Lentz. Chief Clerk, Touche Valley Fur Co. and Ranger for Lewis and Clark State Park, Waitsburg, WA. "I recently did some research and communications with other L&C historians on this subject. I found that Captain Lewis ordered several cloth items that could be used for making packs. The packs, when carried on horseback, were usually affixed to a simple pack saddle made by Patrick Gass or one of his assistant carpenters. The pack saddles are similar to those still being made today using an double X arrangement that all sorts of bags, packs and other items could be affixed to. Scientific instruments were always carried in wooden cases purchased with them in Philadelphia. The cloth items that were purchased from Israel Whelen in Philadelphia on June 15, 1803, are interesting. They include 107 yards of 7/8 brown linen, 46 1/2 yards of 7/8 (Russia) Flanders sheeting, 10 yards of 7/8 Country Linen 3/ "To making the brown Linen into 8 tents, with eyelet holes, laps, etc., Thread, etc. " Of interest to the packer would be the purchase of "Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags. Thread & cord". All of the linen and sheeting, 150 yards, was oiled. The bags and tents were numbered as any good military expedition would do. Probably came in handy when trying to find specific items, also. Any bag that was carried in a keelboat, pirogue or canoe could also be carried on the pack saddle with some extra cordage. On a trip a few years ago I carried two 40 pound bales of supplies wrapped in two 5X14' pieces of 10 oz cotton canvas (Lewis used this size for shelter halves and ordered 40 yards of material to make them up) tied to a pack saddle. There is no doubt that the packs could have been much heavier. Lewis listed on his initial inventory of supplies needed that these pieces of material were not only for shelter halves but "connected at pleasure in order to answer the several purposes of Tents, covering to Boat or Canoe, or if necessary to be used as sails." No doubt while on the overland parts of the journey they could also be used as wrappings for other articles and fastened to a pack saddle. It is also interesting that Lewis ordered at least "2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes" along with his cloth purchases. We often hear re-enactors saying that pieces of linen from the period must not have such items but only had linen or webbing ties to be "authentic". I seem to remember seeing Revolutionary War era shelter halves that were made so that they could be put together with these items. For what its worth, consider this my addition to the dearth of information on the subject." G. Lentz Chf. Clrk. TVFCo - - Secondly from Ron Petrie, Member of the Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade, AMM, presently posted in the Philippine IS. Cap'n Rog, "I enjoyed reading the pack information and thought I would add the following; I have a book ( a collection of American fiction from Harpers Magazine) that has a painting reproduced on the jacket that is not identified other than to say that it is from the "Bridgeman Art Library". It is a scene of 3 men by a woodpile in front of a log cabin, circa 1840. 2 of the men are obviously settlers and the third appears to be just passing through and is swapping news. He is wearing a hunting frock and has a powder horn slung over his shoulder. His back action percussion rifle is laying against the log he is sitting on and next to it is shown his pack. It is a pillow case sized bag that appears to be coarse fabric (but could possibly be leather) that has shoulder straps attached. The strap is blue fabric about 1 =BD " wide and maybe 4 or 5 feet long, the center of it being tied around the neck of the bag and the ends are tied to the bottom corners. The bottom corners appear to have a pebble (or some such) inserted inside to prevent the strap from sliding off. What is not shown in the painting is any sort of bedroll or blanket, unless it is stuffed in the pack. There really are damn few period references to packs and even fewer of them depicted in period artwork, so I was quite interested to see this one. I made one of these up out of some coarse and sturdy linen. It works quite well (as long as the bag is loaded with soft items on the side that will be against your back) and will hold a fair amount of plunder. =20 I should probably reproduce the painting and send it in to the T&LR. Others might find it of interest as well." Ron Petrie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:48:14 -0800 (PST) From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com> Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" What Is he refering to ??? G.R.N. - --- Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> wrote: > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:17:34 -0700 > From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccs > Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Lou- > Great input! No matter if the references agree > with me or not, that is how > we all learn. And even decide on what to wear, use > and put on. The Denver Art > Museum does have some Indian Mocs with thin rawhide > soles, a little later than > we portary, but still around. > I do agree that some times a hard sole is nice to > have, there have been camps > where it has taken a year or more to get all the > prickly pear needles out of the > mocs and not have the sox stay in the mocs when you > pull your foot out. I find > the side seam to be my favorite, all moc styles have > their pros and cons (hard > soles being they are so slippery in wet grass and > when wet all the way through). > And even the side seams take regular restiching to > redo the front stiches from > scuffing and dragging of the feet. > > mike. > Sickler, Louis L wrote: > > > Ho the list, > > > > Here are a few references I found regarding > rawhide soled moccasins, or even > > entire mocs being made of rawhide. I'm at work, > so I can't cite page > > numbers from hard copy books. These are on Dean > Rudy's web page, for your > > reading pleasure. > > > =================================== > > Ruxton's 'Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains > > > > Each tribe of Prairie Indians has a different > method of making moccasins, so > > that any one, acquainted with the various > fashions, is at no loss to know > > the nation to which any particular one belongs > whom he may happen to meet. > > The Arapahos and Cheyennes use a "shoe" moccasin, > that is, one which reaches > > no higher than the instep, and wants the upper > sideflaps which moccasins > > usually have. I always used Chippewa moccasins, > which differ from those of > > the Prairie make, by the seam being made up the > center of the foot to the > > leg, and puckered into plaits. This, which is the > true fashion of the > > "Forest Indian," (who, by the by, is as distinct > in character and appearance > > from him of the "plains" as a bear from a > blue-bottle) attracted the > > attention of the Arapaho warriors, and caused a > lively discussion amongst > > themselves, owing to the novelty of the > manufacture. They all surrounded me, > > and each examined and felt carefully the unusual > chaussure. > > > > Towards the latter end of April green grass began > to show itself in the > > bottoms, and -myself and two others, who had been > wintering in the mountains > > for the benefit of their health, made preparations > for our departure to the > > United States. Pack-saddles were inspected and > repaired, apishamores made, > > lariats and lassos greased and stretched, mules > and horses collected from > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:43:24 +0000 From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs George Noe wrote: > > In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" > What Is he refering to ??? George, Not claiming to be a horse person but I believe the term describes the blanket or blankets that are used under the saddle to protect the horse's back. Osborne Russell mentions laying a couple of them on the ground and rolling up in his blanket next to a good fire to make it through a very cold night. I think he spelled it differently with an "e" as in "epishamor". I can't find it in his journal, (which I just got through reading) my dictionary or the pc's dictionary so I am not sure how it is spelled. Buy I am pretty sure it is a saddle blanket. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 16:40:35 -0700 From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: aphisamores Asphismores are saddle blankets. But they also were fur on hides folded two ways to fit under the saddle. The most common way I read about to fold these were make it in thirds (both ways). It is harder to describe than do. Take the hide or blanket and fold it long ways so that a third of the blanket covers the middle section from both sides. Now take the upper third and fold it over the middle section and then the lower third. Some times you have adjust it to work better under the saddle. This sometimes is too tall to work properly. Since it can cause the saddle to slip because of the height. But a thin, small hide works well like that. R Lahti wrote: > George Noe wrote: > > > > In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" > > What Is he refering to ??? > > George, > > Not claiming to be a horse person but I believe the term describes the > blanket or blankets that are used under the saddle to protect the > horse's back. Osborne Russell mentions laying a couple of them on the > ground and rolling up in his blanket next to a good fire to make it > through a very cold night. I think he spelled it differently with an "e" > as in "epishamor". I can't find it in his journal, (which I just got > through reading) my dictionary or the pc's dictionary so I am not sure > how it is spelled. Buy I am pretty sure it is a saddle blanket. I > remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #420 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.