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hist_text-digest      Thursday, December 9 1999      Volume 01 : Number 421



In this issue:

-áááááá RE: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: moccs
-áááááá Re: [Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book.]
-áááááá Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ?]]
-áááááá MtMan-List: Winter Mocs
-áááááá MtMan-List: Moccasin & Foot (Arch Support?)
-áááááá MtMan-List: OT U.N. coming for your guns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Winter Mocs
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Packs
-áááááá MtMan-List: 1831 Newspaper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1831 Newspaper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin & Foot (Arch Support?)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion

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Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 18:36:10 -0600
From: Farseer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs

I've heard the term "epishmore" used to describe a horse blanket as well,
but as to the spelling?  Can't help there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of R Lahti
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 4:43 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs
>
>
> George Noe wrote:
> >
> > In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores"
> >  What Is he refering to ???
>
> George,
>
> Not claiming to be a horse person but I believe the term describes the
> blanket or blankets that are used under the saddle to protect the
> horse's back. Osborne Russell mentions laying a couple of them on the
> ground and rolling up in his blanket next to a good fire to make it
> through a very cold night. I think he spelled it differently with an "e"
> as in "epishamor". I can't find it in his journal, (which I just got
> through reading) my dictionary or the pc's dictionary so I am not sure
> how it is spelled. Buy I am pretty sure it is a saddle blanket. I
> remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:02:21 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccs

George:

If you're looking for something interesting to read and print out to save, go
to the Drudy website and look up terms and definitions compiled by Mr. Walt
Hayward and another gentleman whose name I can't recall.  You'll find a
concise and enjoyable dictionary of the era we all respect.

Dick Summers

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Date: 7 Dec 99 21:44:35 EST
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book.]

Thanks Buck for the review, sounds like Santa will be bringing me another=

gift, and thank you John for your comments, looks like I will have to go =
to
the book store this weekend. If you have to stay in when the weather is b=
ad,
why not read something worthwhile like Buck has mentioned and then add to=
 the
library with that set of books John has told us about, can wait for the n=
ew
one.

Later
Concho Smith
Locks Bank, PA.

- ----------------------------------
"John L. Allen" <[e-mail]> wrote:
Thanks for the kind words, Buck. Your recommendation and review made MY d=
ay.

And yes, I've written a bunch of other stuff--but most of it consists of
fairly dry articles in professional journals, along with some textbooks a=
nd
atlases designed for college students.

One thing that might be of interest is a 3-volume work on North American
Exploration (University of Nebraska Press,1997) that covers exploration f=
rom
the first Norse contacts around 1000 AD down to the end of the 19th centu=
ry.
The third volume contains two lengthy chapters on the explorations of the=

Canadian and American fur trade in the 19th century.

I'm now in the finishing stages of a book on the explorations of the Rock=
y
Mountain fur trade from 1806 to 1845 (beginning with John Colter and
concluding with the travels of John Charles Fremont, the "Pathfinder" who=

was guided by former members of the fur trade). This is a logical "sequel=
"
to the Lewis and Clark book and will use pretty much the same techniques =
for
examining the mountain men's knowledge of western geography of the West,
what kinds of maps they made, and how their geographical information got
passed on to other Americans by the middle of the 1800s. Conventional
historical "wisdom" is that the mountain men didn't impart much formal
information. I disagree with that and have located a considerable number =
of
published maps and descriptive essays in geography books, travel narrativ=
es,
newspapers, magazines, government documents, etc. from the first half of =
the
1800s that relied heavily on information from mountain men. Hopefully, th=
e
book will go to the publisher this coming spring and will be available ab=
out
a year after that.

I'll keep the list posted on this since this is a book that will be direc=
tly
of interest to most of you.

Thanks again for your review.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT 06268
860/487-1346
[e-mail]


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Buck <[e-mail]>
To: Dean Rudy's "hist_list" <[e-mail]>;
American_Mountain_Men <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 10:06 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book.


> Members,
>
> Over the last few years we have seen a few members author several books=
,
tapes, etc. of which have been interviewed from time to time.  We have a =
few
of these folks still with us and several have moved on to other lists for=

one reason or another.
>
> One gentleman that is a regular on the Hist_list with wonderful
references, great documented information and so on - is Dr. John L. Allen=
=2E
John is a student of Lewis & Clark and has traveled in their footsteps in=
 an
attempt to experience these gentlemen's lives and the lives of the Corps =
of
Discovery members, as has several of us done over the years.
>
> Dr. Allen wrote a book about these gentlemen and their adventure, yet I=

have never seen anything about this great resource book, well written, wi=
th
47 maps and a wealth of information on this event.  This is a "must" have=

book for any reenacter's library that's involved in the development of la=
nd
west of the Mississippi, western travel, the fur trade or westward moveme=
nt.
>
> The name of this book is:
> "LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST"  by John Loga=
n
Allen.
> Dover Publications, Inc., New York  # 0-486-26914-0 (pbk.)
>
> Originally published in 1975 and now the Dover edition, published 1991 =
is
a gem that I, myself have over looked for some unknown reason, now found =
and
feel that you too, should be made aware of this important information and=

guide that follows these captains across this great country.
>
> This book focuses on Lewis and Clark's epic journey of 1804-1806,
following the expedition over the Rocky Mountains to the coast with
information on the maps, plants, wildlife, etc. - wait until you see the
detail on these maps.
>
> This would be a great Christmas present, pick one up for that special
person or for yourself (that's a must do).
>
> John have you written anything else, I hope this wasn't the only one,
brother you did an excellent piece of work. I started reading your book l=
ast
night and had to be told to go to bed (like a kid), hope this short revie=
w
is with your approval, you should be very proud of this, I'm proud we the=

folks on this list know you through this list.
>
> Thank you for making my day, this is great reading.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
> _________________________________
> Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html
> Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/
> AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html
> _________________________________
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.ne=
t
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=

>


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------------------------------

Date: 7 Dec 99 21:51:39 EST
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ?]]

I wonder why you didn't get a response to the "Silver Haired Gentleman" c=
rack
or "old coot" slamp Dennis, he must have missed them but that's OK. --- "=
I'm
tellin'" --- .

You do any good with Mrs. Jager in PA ??

Later
Concho Smith
Locks Bank, PA.


[e-mail] (Dennis Miles) wrote:
Concho Wrote:
Why didn't you mention this at Thanksgiving when I was at your
place,apparently more than one
turkey at the table, right Dennis M. ?

>>Concho, as much as I would like to chime in on this, I won't.. You see,=
 Buck
is patiently
waiting for a knife, and I don't wanna rile the ol' coot.. If you catch m=
y
drift..<G>
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 20:37:50 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Mocs

Hello the List,

And now another question,

What do you use for Winter moccasins?

I have 2 sets I use.  The first is a set of side seams from vegetable tanned
hide, just below knee height.  I use wool liners, also cut in a side seam
style, with an extra layer of wool blanketing under the sole.  I've used
these for about 4 years now, with great results.  They've been in -15 degree
weather and still served well.  Finally this fall I added 2 more layers of
wool blanketing under the sole, as the originals got packed down from much use.

My other set is hair-in buffalo.  They are wonderful, and I mainly use them
for sleeping in during really cold weather.

Looking forward to your replies,

Allen Hall in Fort Hall country
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:35:54 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Moccasin & Foot (Arch Support?)

Would appreciate hearing modern and ancient camp's experiences
(non-Indian trapper and/or American Indian).  How do the arches hold up?
knee strain?  Did they make their own from a small piece of bunched-up
sock wool sewn to buckskin?

- -----------------------------------
from Michigan Territory
- -----------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:47:12 -0700
From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: OT U.N. coming for your guns

U.N. coming for your guns
Private groups, governments team up
to restrict use, ownership of firearms

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19991207_xex_un_coming_yo.shtml



[e-mail]
Lewis Fork Free Trappers
www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html



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Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 19:57:35 +0000
From: R Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Mocs

Allen Hall wrote:
>
> Hello the List,
>
> And now another question,
>
> What do you use for Winter moccasins?

Allen,

I have one pair of brain tanned elk in the pucker toe style with a
leather and trade wool insert in the vamp. They come up about 8" or so
and wrap part way. I wear wool socks inside blanket booties made like
the pack liners with two layers of blanket on the bottom and one on the
sides. I haven't experienced as cold a weather as you but they seem to
do a good job of keeping my  feet warm and dry. I put an extra layer of
leather on the bottoms for wearability.

Jon writes:

Would appreciate hearing modern and ancient camp's experiences
(non Indian trapper and/or American Indian).  How do the arches hold up?
knee strain?  Did they make their own from a small piece of bunched-up
sock wool sewn to buckskin?

- -----------------------------------
from Michigan Territory
- -----------------------------------

Jon,

I don't think that was a consideration or a problem. Man evolved to walk
without arch supports, many aboriginal peoples don't use arch supports
and we probably do only because we walk on hard flat surfaces and eat
way too many biscuits with butter and honey on them. <G> I am up to 250
and after a couple days don't have any foot problems (arch). I make my
mocs with enough leather on the bottom to ignore the rocks pretty much
and so never get tender feet.

I guess if a fella has a foot problem that keeps him from wearing moc's
the answer is an unobtrusive insert with arch support. No one is going
to know and I sure as hell don't care. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 16:48:19 +0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Packs

On page 74 of Donald Jackson's Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, is
a list of items that Lewis thought would be essential for the expedition.
Here he states wanting "Materials for making up various articles into
portable packs
     30 sheepskins taken off the animal whole without being split on the belly
and dress'd only with lime to free them from the wool; or otherwise about
the same quantity of Oil Cloth bags well painted"  (Rawhide bags or painted
oil cloth)
     "Raw Hide for pack strings"
    "Dress'd letter(leather) for Hoppus-Straps"
    "Other packing"
(Parens mine)
Jackson desribes the 'hoppus' straps may have been 'hoppas' an indian term
for knapsack
He also lists awls, saddler needles and theread as being taken
later on page 90 we see a paid invoice for
"107 yds of 7/8 brown linen
461/2 yds of 7/8 (Russia) Flanders Sheeting
10 yds 7/8 Country linen
To making the brown linen into 8 tents, with
Eyelet-holes, laps, &c. Thread &c.
To making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags.  Thread & Cord.
2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes
Oiling of all the linen & sheeting
numbering all the bags & Tents"
I've speculated that the Russia sheeting must have been heavier than the
brown linen else why would he not have it all made of the same matierial.
I've also wondered about the 7/8.  Again I've speculated that this was the
width of loom woven cloth or 7/8 of a yard wide or 31.5 inches wide.  A
fairly standard width of cloth at the time. and two widths sewn together
would be about 5 feet.  Dividing the yardage up by the 8 tents would give
you 40.125 feet per tent, which when two are sewn together is 2 5 by 10 ft
sections held together with hook and eyes.  (About the size of most diamond
flies).
One thing I don't understand is shy the Eyelet-holes?  I always saw hook and
eyes as external sewn on attachments.  Any ideas?  Also there is no mention
of his receiving his "rawhide casings" just the Russsia sheeting bags.

Regards Rick




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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 11:24:43 -0700
From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 1831 Newspaper

Ho the list,

This on e-bay right now! Look under American Fur Company

They're asking $10.00 now, auction closes in 5 days.

NEW YORK AMERICAN, Aug.5, 1831. Short back page report FROM MISSOURI - The
Steamboat Yellowstone arrives at
     St. Louis, from her trip up the Missouri - THE YELLOWSTONE IS OWNED BY
THE AMERICAN FUR COMPANY, and
     left this place (St. Louis) on the 15th of April last, for the purpose
of proceedings as far up as the mouth of the
     Yellowstone--2000 miles--CARRYING GOODS FOR THE INDIAN TRADE with which
the Company annually supplies the
     traders in its employ--owing, however, to the low stage of the water in
the Missouri, the Yellowstone was unable to proceed
     beyond Fort Tecumsch, the mouth of the little Missouri, 1,300 miles
above St. Louis. Etc. THE YELLOWSTONE BRIUGHT
     DOWN A FULL CARGO OF BUFFALO ROBES, FURS AND PELTRIES, BESIDES 10,000
POUNDS OF BUFFALO
     TONOGUES. Report from Arkansas on the prospects of a war between the
Osages and Pawnees. Complete 4 page issue in fine
     condition with foxing spots. Various edge tears, not touching the
contents listed. Add $3.50 for postage. Check out my other
     newspaper auctions.

This isn't in my realm of ability to purchase at the moment, but I thought
one of you out there would like to have this true relic from our period.
if not, sorry for wasting bandwidth.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

"Having been so long absent from the business of trapping and so much
perplexed and harassed by the folly of the men  in power, I returned again
to the woods, the river, the prarie, the camp and the game with a feeling
somewhat like that of a prisoner escaped from his dungeon and his chains."
    Jedediah Strong Smith


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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:10:23 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 Newspaper

Thanks for the heads up on the newspaper article.  I plan to bid on it!

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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 00:40:58 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin & Foot (Arch Support?)

At 10:35 PM 12/07/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Would appreciate hearing modern and ancient camp's experiences
>(non-Indian trapper and/or American Indian).  How do the arches hold up?
>knee strain?  Did they make their own from a small piece of bunched-up
>sock wool sewn to buckskin?

We are descended from lots of generations of folks that didn't need or
bother with this, and were on their feet more than us.  I doubt that they
used anything at all.

I know that usually my feet feel better after a good long time in moccasins.
This last summer I was on an extended (10 day) trip in side seams with no
extra sole, and I was fine.

Just my experience.......

Allen Hall from Fort Hall country


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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:45:12 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion

- --------------8CEC342D9004BC042A18D32F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,
 As per a request by a few of you I have worked up a copy of a EARLY
common French knife.
It can be seen a
www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Knives.htm
It is under the New Dec 9th along with two pics of the original.
Thanks
D
- --

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1


- --------------8CEC342D9004BC042A18D32F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hi all,
<br> As per a request by a few of you I have worked up a copy of a
EARLY common French knife.
<br>It can be seen a
<br><a href="http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Knives.htm">www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Knives.htm</a>
<br>It is under the New Dec 9th along with two pics of the original.
<br>Thanks
<br>D
<br>--
<br>
<br>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
<br>        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
<br> Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
<br>   <A HREF="http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1">http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1</A>
<br> </html>

- --------------8CEC342D9004BC042A18D32F--


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 15:59:07 +0000
From: R Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion

Dennis Miles wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>  As per a request by a few of you I have worked up a copy of a EARLY
> common French knife.

Dennis,

Now that's a fine looking knife. How come it wasn't up for auction? I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:42:18 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion

Cap't.
Cause I gots bills to pay.. And a National to save up for...
And thanks.. It is a fine feelin' sticker...
D

R Lahti wrote:

> Now that's a fine looking knife. How come it wasn't up for auction? I
> remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- --

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1



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