> The reason I sent the first original post, is that I've noticed that just about all the antique trade pots I come across, are not tinned.
>
> I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pots to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off over the years?
>
> Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Lee,
I got several pots that where from the 1850 to 1870 period when the government put the Indians on the reservations, two are not tinned and one is, same with a couple of pans made of brass - tinned and not tinned. Asked Hanson about this and from what he found, it depended on the government contract, supplier, pricing and quality as to how heavy a material the items was made from.
Tin was cheaper than brass or copper, so he felt that it was possible a tinned brass or copper pot (lighter guage brass or copper material) could bring as much $$$$ as a same weight item that wasn't tinned. Thus the tinned pot, pan item was cheaper and would show more profit for the trader, health issues wasn't a problem in those days.
It's only been since WWII that we have been really worried about what we use to drink from, eat on or cook in, look at the amount of pewter our grand folks used for those special events.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:03:29 -0600
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots
Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pots
>to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off
>over the years?
Copper fragments found at archeological digs of pre-1821 Canadian fur posts
are often (I dare not say "always"!) tinned. I agree with John Kramer that
an "antique" pot that's completely untinned might not actually be an
antique. There's one exception, though--if I recall correctly, copper &
brass "preserving pans" used for making jams & jellies were not tinned
because the sugar mixture in the pans got hot enough to melt the tin.
(Anyone gotten a burn from a hot sugar mixture? Yow!) These pans are quite
large, though.
I just read a great book on fake Canadian antiques, _Canfake_ by Royal
Ontario Museum curator emeritus Donald Webster (ISBN 0-7710-8905-8). I would
recommend it to anyone interested in buying antiques--although his examples
are Canadian, the principles of fakery he discusses apply to antiques
everywhere, and fakery is very widespread. He also devotes a whole chapter
to discussing modern reproductions (including the ROM's museum
reproductions) as "future fakes". It's fun to read, with stories of all
kinds of scams & fakes from Webster's years at the ROM.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
agottfre@telusplanet.net
It is startling how much someone who has handled an ax for years can learn
in a millisecond from mishandling an ax. --David Gidmark, _Birchbark Canoe_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:58:11 -0500
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: skunked!!
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:49:02 EDT
>From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Skunked !!!!! Help Please!!!
>
>The yellow spots sound like skunk. Their scent (skunk oil) is a deep yellow
>color. I have removed several skunks from homes to out of banks, without
>them spraying. Just lucky I guess. Contact me off list for help.
>
> TrapRJoe
Nothing personal, but why do people ask for off list responses to questions
that concern us all. I am sure we all can benefit from information and
advice on wild animal encounters. Please post to the list all relevant
responses on what to do when skunked. I had a close encounter with a skunk
last Friday night on a fur trade solo. It would have been nice to know
what to do just in case.
Thank you
HBC
****************************************
Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
****** Living History . . . Because It's There ******
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:35:14 -0700
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges
It sounds like you know all about this, but for the benefit of the list (and
budding blacksmiths), the published advantages of wrought iron are:
- --Ductility (also shared by mild steel)
- --Ease of forge welding (mild steel requires flux to cut the oxide layer;
wrought iron could be forge welded readily when brought up to welding heat,
which also implies a slowness of oxidation)
- --Corrosion resistance (I believe this has to do with low carbon content;
the carbon in mild steel acts as electrolytic centers which galvanically
accelerate corrosion -- ie, oxidation, when moist)
On the other hand, wrought iron has a pronounced "grain" due to the drawing
and folding process used in manufacture, which needs to be accounted for
when making objects.
I've banged a few items out on my friend's forge; perhaps one of us will be
lucky enough to acquire real wrought iron someday.
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer [mailto:kramer@kramerize.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 11:27 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges
Pat,
Now that you mention it I am aware that some early bridges spoke of steel,
I'm
not sure exactly what that meant. Hadn't really thought about it until you
brought it up, don't know about early skyscrapers either. Don't presently
have
time to search the questions out. I can only hope to provide a few clues so
others can seek out the answers they need. I'm a strong advocate that we
should each seek our own path of study.
If I remember right the first encounter I had with this information is in
Beeler's book "The Art of Blacksmithing." I have had it confirmed by
several
smiths since then. It may have been a different book, we are dealing with
my
mental junkpile. Ain't important enough to me to go look.
It may have been a cost issue where most were of iron as it was cheaper
until
the manufacture of steel became cheaper through economies of scale. That
might
coincide with '64.
Corrosion resistance may only be a modern rumor unrelated to why iron was,
at
least mostly, used.
I think it was at Conner Prairie a long time ago when I first heard the
corrosion resistance theory. I've pretty much gone with it but, steel
having
been mentioned does raise the question. Was that the issue?
The original point is that if you can get ahold of some pieces of bridge
erected before 1964 most likely they are wrought iron. Wrought Iron is
preferred for much historic iron work. The first query was as to the
traditional way.
I was trying to encourage the real traditional way rather than the sort of
traditional way.
I'd be willing to trade for a few hundred pounds.
John...
At 10:28 PM 9/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>My childhood "Big Book of Bridges" made a distinction between "iron" and
>"steel" bridges. I managed to remember the name of the Eads Bridge in St
>Louis, which is easily found on the Web. According to the Boise State
>College Civil Engineering web site (and several other less rigorous
>resources) it was built in the 1870's and was "the first major bridge to
use
>steel". Iron bridges, of course, go back to the early 1800's if not sooner,
>in England. I agree that wrought iron is more corrosion resistant. There is
>a famous uncoated wrought iron pillar in India which has stood for 2500
>years with only minor corrosion around the base. Could wrought iron have
>been used in smaller local bridges where thinner gauges and chancier
>maintenance were factors? Or was it called something like "black steel"
>which was mentioned on another large St Louis bridge?
>Pat Quilter
>PS, I was high school class of 1964.
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 12:19:24 PDT
From: "Patrick Goltl" <pgoltl@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives
i'm a newcomer to the list and also somewhat of a greenhorn.
i have kind of an odd question regarding the carrying of knives. aside from
the usuall belt/sheath knife and patch knife, are there any accounts of
additional knives being carried as weapons in an unconventional manner?
shoulder sling under arm or on the back? other?
i hope my question makes sense? i've never seen or heard of anything like
this, so i thought i'd throw it out to the experts.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 1 Oct 1999 13:12:03 -0700
From: Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wearing of extra knives
On Fri, 01 October 1999, "Patrick Goltl" wrote:
> i'm a newcomer to the list and also somewhat of a greenhorn. i have kind of an odd question regarding the carrying of knives. aside from the usuall belt/sheath knife and patch knife, are there any accounts of additional knives being carried as weapons in an unconventional manner?
> shoulder sling under arm or on the back? other.........
Look at Madison Grants book on pouches, his book on powder horns, and knives, they show additional knives. Some are folders that are carried in the pouches and haversacks or bedrolls, while several are attached to the back of the shooting pouches or haversacks, personal liking.
Lewis or was it Clark, carried a large knife over his shoulder instead of a hawk. Dennis Miles (on this list)does the same and could give you more information on what works with his testing of this method of carry.
I have seen guys carrying boot knives, but have never really seen anything to documenation for the fur trade, earliest reference I could find was the Civil War, several Officers used this as a way to carry extra protection.
St.Vrain wore a vest as did Marino Medina that had a sheath on the inside, where a small knife was carried out of sight for protection. Several others took up this practice like Tom Tobin and Kit Carson.
Never saw any of the "Hollywood baloney" recorded of fur trade era folks carrying a knife in the middle of their back between the shoulder blades. Wouldn't that be a mess if you got dumped off your horse and landed on your back, which seems to be the normal position we end up in after a crash !!!
I'm sure we will see much comment on this subject.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:17:34 EDT
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: skunked!!
An off list request was so I could put her or him in contact with a trapper
in their area. Not everyone want their exact location known to every one
with a computer. Skunk are fairly easy to trap and are not bad to spray if
handle with ease. I took three out of a business here, one at a time.
Loaded each in the back of the pickup and then went to the coffee shop. Had
coffee with people walking back and forth right by the pickup with the skunk,
( alive ) in the back. Know one ever knew. No smell or noise on the skunks
part. If I gave details to every type of conditions I could think of, I
could publish it in book form. I have taken dozens of skunks out of homes
and business and even more from around homes, without a scent being given
off, but, then maybe I'm just lucky.
If you have questions I will be happy to answer on line, but if you want
a trapper at your home, I'm not going to take the chance of endangering you
with who know who.
TrapRJoe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:25:24 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots
Angela,
You do keep me thinking and remembering. Actually there are several more
"exceptions" to the every pot is tinned.
Large double wall apple butter pots weren't tinned. Even today chocolate=
pots
in candy factories aren't tinned; the last one I was in was using copper.=
The
copper is scrubbed bright so there is no oxidation to mix with the candy.
I happen to own a very large old brass pot that isn't tinned. My old cop=
per
wash basin isn't tinned.
Probably as many exceptions as rules. There is a lot of the India/Pakist=
an
stuff floating around. Most every antique shop is certain it's ancient. =
Some
of it actually looks pretty good.
John...
At 09:03 AM 10/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pot=
s
>>to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off
>>over the years?
>
>Copper fragments found at archeological digs of pre-1821 Canadian fur po=
sts=20
>are often (I dare not say "always"!) tinned. I agree with John Kramer th=
at=20
>an "antique" pot that's completely untinned might not actually be an=20
>antique. There's one exception, though--if I recall correctly, copper &=20
>brass "preserving pans" used for making jams & jellies were not tinned=20
>because the sugar mixture in the pans got hot enough to melt the tin.=20
>(Anyone gotten a burn from a hot sugar mixture? Yow!) These pans are qui=
te=20
>large, though.
>
>I just read a great book on fake Canadian antiques, _Canfake_ by Royal=20
>Ontario Museum curator emeritus Donald Webster (ISBN 0-7710-8905-8). I w=
ould=20
>recommend it to anyone interested in buying antiques--although his examp=
les=20
>are Canadian, the principles of fakery he discusses apply to antiques=20
>everywhere, and fakery is very widespread. He also devotes a whole chapt=
er=20
>to discussing modern reproductions (including the ROM's museum=20
>reproductions) as "future fakes". It's fun to read, with stories of all=20
>kinds of scams & fakes from Webster's years at the ROM.=20
>
>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>agottfre@telusplanet.net
>
>It is startling how much someone who has handled an ax for years can lea=
rn
>in a millisecond from mishandling an ax.=A0 --David Gidmark, _Birchbark =
Canoe_
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:34:50 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots
Buck,
I forget the exact date but back in the 1600's the British passed a law
prohibiting the use of lead in pewter used for food service. I don't rem=
ember
if that was the source of the term Britannia Metal.
Of course there have been the unscrupulous in all periods of history but =
some
of the problems with lead have been long known.
If in doubt one of the home lead test kits on the market can confirm or d=
eny
the presence of lead in pewter as well as in glazes on pottery, or paint =
on
walls. Many coffee cups from the Orient still offer a significant hazard.
John...
At 07:52 AM 10/1/99 -0700, Buck wrote:
>
>It's only been since WWII that we have been really worried about what we=
use
to drink from, eat on or cook in, look at the amount of pewter our grand =
folks
used for those special events.
>
>Later,
>Buck Conner
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:44:56 -0600
From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: and the pot called the kettle?
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> wrote:
>Tea is for unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers...
Yes. Please pass the teapot, since you're not using it. <g>
Your obliged & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
It is startling how much someone who has handled an ax for years can learn
in a millisecond from mishandling an ax. --David Gidmark, _Birchbark Canoe_
------------------------------
Date: 1 Oct 1999 13:57:00 -0700
From: Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots
On Fri, 01 October 1999, John Kramer wrote:
>
> Buck,
>
> I forget the exact date but back in the 1600's the British passed a law
> prohibiting the use of lead in pewter used for food service. I don't remember
> if that was the source of the term Britannia Metal.
>
> Of course there have been the unscrupulous in all periods of history but some
> of the problems with lead have been long known.
>
> If in doubt one of the home lead test kits on the market can confirm or deny
> the presence of lead in pewter as well as in glazes on pottery, or paint on
> walls. Many coffee cups from the Orient still offer a significant hazard.
>
> John...
John,
It seems that several of these TV programs (Steve & Norm) etc, are always worried about lead paint, even as late as the 20's and 30's paints. It's like you say we knew about it, yet it still keeps popping up.
In the communications business we still have unbelievable amounts of lead wrapped cable in the ground, vaults and in man holes. It's only been the last 15-20 years that we started to write jobs, to remove it and still no rubber goods- gloves, coveralls, etc. to remove "white" lead (in that bad of a condition) but it still holds air pressure in the case.
The same goes with other industries having it laying around, I picked up some really nice clean 6" X 8" X 3" lead bars that came from a melt down in one of our subs being taken apart at the Navy yard in San Diego a few years ago, the dealer claimed you won't glow ?? Paid 15 cents a pound.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
_____________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:07:19 -0500
From: "Tommy" <tedge@nex.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Auction
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF0C27.09C00420
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, Tommy
I make Knives
http://www.nex.net/tedge
pictures of grandbabies
and knives can be seen at
http://easyfoto.com/edward
- -----Original Message-----
From: gemini <gemini@socket.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 07:18 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Auction
=20
=20
=20
Tommy wrote:=20
=20
Anyone know of any rondvoos this weekend in Arkansas, Texas, =
Missouri or Tenn. Thank you, Tommy=20
=20
=20
Rendezvous at Greenville, Mo, 573-6246290, St. Charles, Mo also=20
has a Rendezvous, and one at Rocheport, Missouri.
rendezvous at Greenville, Mo is that in Clay county or =
Wayne county?
has a Rendezvous, and one at Rocheport, Missouri.
- ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF0C27.09C00420
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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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