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hist_text-digest        Friday, October 1 1999        Volume 01 : Number 384



In this issue:

-áááááá Fwd: Re: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
-áááááá MtMan-List: Copper And  Water
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Copper And  Water
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Copper And  Water
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: illness from copper pot
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: and the pot called the kettle?
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: 1964 (Way Off Topic); NOT
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots

Friends On the list:
 Here is a comment from a friend of mine.
 He is a matalurgist, and has a buisness as a welding
consultant.
 Hope it gives some insite on COPPER.
 George

- --- "Melvin D. Swift" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> From: "Melvin D. Swift" <[e-mail]>
> To: "George Noe" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:17:53 -0500
>
> REPLY FROM MEL SWIFT....
>   THERE ARE MANY GRADES OF
> COPPER.  SOME GRADES CONTAIN
> SUCH ALLOYING ELEMENTS AS ZINC
> AND LEAD.  THE SAME IS EVEN MORE
> TRUE OF BRASS, OR BRONZE.
>    I WOULD NOT USE COPPER, BRASS
> OR BRONZE FOR COOKING OVER AN
> OPEN FIRE.  I HAVE SEEN BRASS
> OUTGAS ZINC FUMES OVER AN OPEN
> FIRE WHICH IS SCARY.
>    WHY EVEN USE ANY OF THESE METALS WHEN ONE DOES
> NOT KNOW
> THE ORIGIN.  ALSO THE SOLDER USED
> MAY CONTAIN LEAD.
>    A LOT HAS TO DO WITH THE TEMPERATURE.  HOUSE
> PLUMBING
> SELDOM REACHES THE TEMPERATURES FOUND IN AN OPEN
> CAMP FIRE.  BUT EVEN ON HOUSE
> PLUMBING THEY RECOMMEND THAT
> YOU LET THE WATER RUN FOR ABOUT
> 10 TO 20 SECONDS TO FLUSH ANY
> MATERIAL OUT THAT MAY HAVE GONE
> INTO SOLUTION.
>    PRIMATIVE DOES NOT APPLY TO ME
> WHEN MY HEALTH IS CONCERNED.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
> To: Melvin Swift <[e-mail]>
> Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 9:48 AM
> Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
>
>
> >    Mel;
> > What is your input on this ?
> > G.R.N
> >
> >--- [e-mail] wrote:
> >> From: [e-mail]
> >> To: [e-mail]
> >> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 07:29:25 -0700
> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots
> >> Reply-to: [e-mail]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Lee,
> >>
> >> Good question hoss.  I have used a copper pot for
> 20
> >> some years but it never has
> >> made me sick or anything, and I've cooked
> everything
> >> available in it.
> >>
> >> With this concern about copper maybe we should
> take
> >> a look at the waterlines
> >> throughout our modern homes...why doesn't that
> kill
> >> us all dead?
> >>
> >> There ought to be someone on this list who could
> >> tell us if it's the copper or
> >> the stuff it gets soldered together with that
> makes
> >> the difference eh?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >=====
> >George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
>
> >Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the
> skyline.
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> >
>
>


=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:44:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]

In a message dated 99-09-30 17:05:37 EDT, you write:

<< OK, it's off topic, casted lead whatevers for ever, now what do I due, not
selling the front stuffers. Are there any signs that will tell me I need help
? >>

Next time you have a physical, have your Dr. request a "heavy metal" test as
part of his normal lab work.  It's done on the blood, so while you're getting
jabbed for the colesterol test & such, 1 more little tube full won't hurt any
more.  The test not only picks up lead, but various other heavy metals like
cadmium, mercury, & others we as ball casters, outdoorsmen, & reenactors may
come in contact with.  I have it checked about every 5 years or so.

NM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:22:41 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots

Lee
About the only thing that is safe to use with pure copper is drinking =
water.  I have seen many top quality copper canteens and at least one =
big samovar looking water can and none were tinned.  However, as Buck =
said, anythng acidic (including coffee) will react with untinned copper =
with adverse health effects. =20
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff

- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Buck <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots


> On Wed, 29 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > Lee Newbill wrote:
> > >=20
> > > Yo Cap'n
> > >=20
> > > Can you use the copper trade pots without tinning the insides?  =
And if so,
> > > what can they be used for?
> >=20
> > Lee,
> >=20
> > Not that I am aware. I thought the reason for tinning copper was to =
keep
> > bad tastes out and keep the chemicals/metals in the copper that can =
hurt
> > you from getting in your food. I think it is relatively safe to use =
them
> > for drinks and none acidic foods. Hope that helps. I remain....
> >=20
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
>=20
> Lee,
>=20
> What the Cap. has stated is correct, this way you don't have to worry =
about acidic foods like tomatoes, etc. that will poison you.
>=20
> Later,
> Buck Conner
>=20
> AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
> _____________________________
>=20
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account =
http://www.uswestmail.net
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:43:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Copper And  Water

 I have a friend (AMM member} that has a beautiful
Copper water cistern that holds about three gallons of
water.
 At one of our camps, another friend that is a very
talanted ( And High dollar) coppersmith, was looking
it over.(A Comunity living history weekend)
 After he looked inside (all of the bluegreen Film
covering it) he came over to me and said " its very
nice, but DON"T let your grandkids drink out of it!"
 His Mother babyset all of our g. kids since they were
babys untill they started to school.
 He helped raise them !!!
 MY 00.02 cents
 George

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:01:02 -0500
From: "Texan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: screening for metal toxicity[OFF TOPIC]

Blood screening for heavy metals is valid
only if there has been MAJOR exposure in the
last 30 days. The body has a protective mechanism
of the blood that pulls metals out of the blood
and sequesters them in the tissues within
30 days of exposure.

Blood testing is good when there is a constant
exposure to metals.  I would suggest more frequent
testing than once every 5 years if involved in lead
"stuff" on a regular basis.  There is a difference
between major exposure on a regular basis
and chronic low level exposure both in symptomology
and test results. There are other test for heavy
metals-one is invasive, the other is not.  I'll pass on
that data off list at [e-mail]

Victoria

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:11:26 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Copper And  Water

That is good information. I know of a woman who has such a cistern and I =
will tell her what you have said.  She has grandkids, too.
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
To: hist_ text <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 9:43 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Copper And Water


> I have a friend (AMM member} that has a beautiful
> Copper water cistern that holds about three gallons of
> water.
>  At one of our camps, another friend that is a very
> talanted ( And High dollar) coppersmith, was looking
> it over.(A Comunity living history weekend)
>  After he looked inside (all of the bluegreen Film
> covering it) he came over to me and said " its very
> nice, but DON"T let your grandkids drink out of it!"
>  His Mother babyset all of our g. kids since they were
> babys untill they started to school.
>  He helped raise them !!!
>  MY 00.02 cents
>  George
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> George R. Noe< [e-mail] >                          =20
> Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:31:19 +0000
From: R Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots

John C. Funk, Jr. wrote:
>
> P.S.
> Coffee is highly acidic !!  As might be tea???

John,

Valid point but neither is as acidic as tomatoes or cooking such foods
in bare copper containers. Drinking coffee and tea from a copper mug I
think is one thing, making coffee or tea in a bare copper pot is
another. I have never seen the corrosion in the copper mug from drinking
like one can find in a copper container that has had acidic food cooked
in it or left to stand for a long time. Like Angela pointed out, the
simple solution is to tin the copper and be done with it, in other words
quit worrying about it. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:50:14 -0600
From: Bill Klesinger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Copper And  Water

The blue / green you see in or on copper pipes is caused by oxidation,
Water and oxygen. it will form in almost all copper pipes with normal
water flow. If you don't see it, in pipes it is a sign that the water
flow through the piping is flowing at a rate that is approaching pipe
erosion.

I would be more worried about that, than seeing Blue / Green in my
pipes, or any containers.

Copper cook ware that dose not have a good tin lining should not be used
for cooking foods. But any copper  container that is only used for water
carrying or heating water is fine.(copper tea pots unlined for years).


source:
I have been doing plumbing for the last 20+ years.

Bill Klesinger, Solar Engineer

George Noe wrote:

>  I have a friend (AMM member} that has a beautiful
> Copper water cistern that holds about three gallons of
> water.
>  At one of our camps, another friend that is a very
> talanted ( And High dollar) coppersmith, was looking
> it over.(A Comunity living history weekend)
>  After he looked inside (all of the bluegreen Film
> covering it) he came over to me and said " its very
> nice, but DON"T let your grandkids drink out of it!"
>  His Mother babyset all of our g. kids since they were
> babys untill they started to school.
>  He helped raise them !!!
>  MY 00.02 cents
>  George
>
> =====
> George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
> Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots

Hallo Again...

The reason I sent the first original post, is that I've noticed that just
about all the antique trade pots I come across, are not tinned.

I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pots
to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off
over the years?

Regards

Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho
Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders
[e-mail] : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 00:06:20 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: illness from copper pot

In a message dated 9/30/99 4:43:11 PM EST, [e-mail] writes:

<<
      In one of the back issues of T&LR as fellow got sick from his copper
 pot. He remembered from his military training, took a bone and burned it in
 the fire and chared deeply, then ground fine added water and drank it.  In a
 few hrs. he felt ok.
  >>
Charcoal sure does work.
I been there and made myself the medicine from burnt wood.
I made a thick past and ate it like pudding.
Then drank just enough water to wash it down.
I slept like a baby.
Sure beats the over the counter stuff.
Most drug stores now carry char caps and I carry them in all my packs.
Bob
Wilderness Elite

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:07:12 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots

Acid is not the only problem with untinned brass and copper pots.

Nearly 20 years ago I nearly killed Hawk Boughton and his mess with an ol=
d
trick to cook beans I learned from an old cowboy.  At elevation in the Ro=
ckies
beans cook very slow.  If you add a large dollop of baking soda to the fi=
rst
water they cook much faster.

Hawk tried it on a brass pot he'd been cooking in for years,  thorough co=
oking
left him with a bright shiny clean pot and green beans.  Fortunately no o=
ne
ate
any.

I would question the safety of an unlined canteen when today we have a mu=
ch
more acid rain.

If a pot isn't tinned -- don't use it if you want to be perfectly safe.  =
Doc
Grandee seemed to think it took fairly heavy concentrations of copper sal=
ts to
cause a real problem.  Back when we discussed this in the early 80's.  In=
 any
case it isn't as deadly as lead and mercury.

While we're on the subject of safety I suggest one good use for modern bo=
iled
linseed oil.

After you cast your lead ball lay it out on a boiled linseed saturated cl=
oth,
place a second saturated cloth over and roll around to fully coat the bal=
l.=20
Allow to air dry a few days.

Lead ball stored in a leather pouch will quickly oxidize, the white powde=
r
is a
deadly poison which too easily is absorbed from under your fingernails, a=
nd
into the eyes, mouth and nose which you inevitably touch while out in the
woods
where hand washing is usually at best inconvenient.

By coating with linseed the lead is sealed and offers a lesser problem.

John...


At 08:31 PM 9/30/99 +0000, you wrote:
>John C. Funk, Jr. wrote:
>>=20
>> P.S.
>> Coffee is highly acidic !!=A0 As might be tea???
>
>John,
>
>Valid point but neither is as acidic as tomatoes or cooking such foods
>in bare copper containers. Drinking coffee and tea from a copper mug I
>think is one thing, making coffee or tea in a bare copper pot is
>another. I have never seen the corrosion in the copper mug from drinking
>like one can find in a copper container that has had acidic food cooked
>in it or left to stand for a long time. Like Angela pointed out, the
>simple solution is to tin the copper and be done with it, in other words
>quit worrying about it. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:57:04 -0600
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots

Guys,
    As having previous experience with cooking vegetables in a untinned pot- don't let anyone fool you. The cramps and nauseous
feelings stay with you for a while. You are better off not using those pots for any cooking.
                                        mike.

Buck wrote:

> On Wed, 29 September 1999, R Lahti wrote:
>
> >
> > Lee Newbill wrote:
> > >
> > > Yo Cap'n
> > >
> > > Can you use the copper trade pots without tinning the insides?  And if so,
> > > what can they be used for?
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > Not that I am aware. I thought the reason for tinning copper was to keep
> > bad tastes out and keep the chemicals/metals in the copper that can hurt
> > you from getting in your food. I think it is relatively safe to use them
> > for drinks and none acidic foods. Hope that helps. I remain....
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
>
> Lee,
>
> What the Cap. has stated is correct, this way you don't have to worry about acidic foods like tomatoes, etc. that will poison you.
>
> Later,
> Buck Conner
>
> AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
> Aux Ailments de Pays!
> _____________________________
>
> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 01:09:36 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: and the pot called the kettle?

Seems all of us have ended up with something pretty close for a pot.=A0 I=
 found
an old tin lined heavy brass pot weighs 1.35 lbs.=A0 5-3/16" deep X 6" di=
ameter
3/16" wire bail, double riveted (later soldered over) ears.

Most truly old pots I've seen were tinned, buckets were not.  The stuff t=
hat
has come out of India since the late '50's often is not.  A few years and=
 to
the untrained eye many of these look old.

I carry a second small pot specifically for coffee that packs inside the
larger
one, it too is tinned as is my 10 gallon copper coffee pot.=A0 Nobody has=
 one
bigger!

May get around to making a wood or copper pot lid someday -- not essentia=
l
equipment.=A0 The small tinned copper plate I carry works well enough.

All my stuff is old, how old is too hard too say, it is all correct to th=
e
techniques of manufacture and style of the period.

I use my pot to make recipe, render fat, cook food and drink whatever is
available.=A0 Handy drum to make medicine and music.=A0=20

I make do with coffee, rolled oats, dried beans, sometimes parched corn,
pinole
or corn meal, wild rice on occasion, cone/brown sugar, salt, baking soda,
pepper, dried fruit, usually some smoked meat, and not much else.=A0 I ca=
rry
more
coffee than anything else.  Anything that smells like a wild onion
generally is
and ain't killed me yet.

Tea is for unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers.=A0 Herb tea can c=
ure
what
ails you; peppermint, red clover and rose hips is right tasty and nutriti=
ous.

If you live on the trail (unless you're rich and can forward supply) you =
must
be able to resupply staples as you wander.  Hence my carry bags are sized=
 to
common store sizes like a pound of beans.  I make do with only what was
available as can be readily supplied in todays markets.  In many ways it
limits
your larder, and may be the most authentic way to do it. =20

I am weak, I do consider Lorna Doones a fair substitute for shortbread.  =
Yummy
with coffee in the morning.

John...

Now we've weighed & measured our pots, what's next?=A0 Our bellies?


At 06:12 PM 9/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> Buck,
>>=20
>> Well I thought I did. My biggest pot is as big as yours but deeper. MI=
ne
is,
as I said, about 5.5" by 5.5". I carry a smaller pot inside to cook in. T=
he
larger pot makes water for drinking. Not big on carrying enough water on =
my
person for a week! Since we are at it I would be curious as to what and h=
ow
much food you carry for a weekend (3 and 2) or a week (7
>> and 5 ). I may be eating too good...........I am always
>> Capt. Lahti'
>___________________________________________________
>
>Cap,
>I usually figure a cupped hand-full of:
>
>corn meal (per person)mixed with Hanava sugar,=20
>wild rice (same measurement per person),
>barley-pearled (same measurement per person),
>split peas (same measurement per person),
>fruit [dried apples or peaches](same measurement per person),
>dried meat strips broken into 3" pieces (same measurement per person),
>parched corn w/local nuts (same measurement per person),
>tea (same measurement per person, lasts for 3-4 days) a little on the we=
ak
side last day.
>_____________________________
>
>This has worked for a 5 day outing, moving around camp, scouting, etc. b=
ut
only lasts about 3 hard days of paddling (hard work will use up your supp=
lies
very fast).
>_____________________________
>
>With blue corn meal - sugar added, wild rice, split peas, barley, fruit,
meat,
blue parched corn and tea each person can eat until they satisfy the hung=
er
pains, yet can add to his diet with foraged items also. We have found tha=
t we
get along just fine with this and have brought some supplies back if the
foraging was good. I know several that do with much less, but they are al=
ways
playing camp dog too.
>
>I have found that in the last few years food is the last thing I worry a=
bout,
bad but true, I'm usually so happy to be on the ground and away from norm=
al
life, eating a meal is very low on my list. Would rather be scouting the =
area
or just being with old friends in camp.
>_____________________________
>
>Hope this makes sense, answering this as the little woman is telling me =
I'm
late for a meeting.
>
>
>Later,
>Buck Conner
>
>AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
>Aux Ailments de Pays!
>_____________________________
>
>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account
<http://www.uswestmail.net/>http://www.uswestmail.net
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 01:23:28 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: 1964 (Way Off Topic); NOT

Pat,

Not to mention JazzMaster basses.  My brothers got two.

I have no argument with and enjoyed what you wrote.

The point of studying history is to learn something that may be of value =
yet
today.=A0 The study of history strictly for it's own sake is a fool's err=
and.

This tells us of what you've learned and how that learning happened.=A0 L=
ife
experience is of value no matter what some "scholars" may say.

To follow a thread that began in relation to something absolutely of the
period
through the end conclusion of the discussion is absolutely what we should=
 be
doing.

If nothing beyond our period of discussion is allowed utterance; we ain't
likely to learn much that is useful.

Purist can sometimes become like a religion.=A0 Ain't no fanatic like a r=
eformed
sinner.=A0 There are life lessons to be learned in this so called hobby.=A0
This is
more than just interesting.

Pat was very revealing of his philosophy and I thank him for it, it is a
philosophy from a purposeful life.=A0 A life that learned from history.  =
I am
grateful for the time and thought his response required.  I would encoura=
ge
him
to write more.

*******************************
begin OT commentary unrelated to anything Pat said:
it refers to a continuing issue recently revisited.
_______________________________________________________

Sometimes those who demand additional documentation only sound lazy.=A0 W=
e
are at
least as much a learn by doing bunch; as we are careful keepers of footno=
tes
and bibliographies.=A0 Sometimes the practical lessons get lost in the cr=
ies for
more documentation.=A0 Those who spend endless hours seeking information =
rightly
get a little proprietary when others want all easy answers -- chapter and
verse.=A0 It is speculation that raises questions that need better answer=
s,
it is
what spurs research.=A0=20

Before just jumping in and asking questions I would suggest everyone who
hasn't
read the archives Dean maintains; please do so, NOW, as many of these thi=
ngs
have been discussed in excruciating detail oft before.  Then ask about wh=
at is
still not understood.  This is how we can grow.  Many questions are unask=
ed.

end OT commentary
___________________________________________________________

John...


At 11:51 AM 9/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>WARNING: this essay is way off topic, my only excuse being that we are
>interested in history here, and many of us share a feeling of lost value=
s
>which we are trying to preserve, which were involved in the events descr=
ibed
>below.=20
>=A0=A0 I never previously thought of 1964 as a watershed year, possibly =
since I
>graduated high school that year, and assumed that succeeding changes wer=
e
>more a matter of my expanding perspective than real-world events, but ma=
ny
>changes were underway which culminated in the "counterculture" of the la=
te
>60's. I remember the mid-sixties as the first era where "kids my age" we=
re
>making music for our own peer group (the Beach Boys, etc). At the same t=
ime,
>icons of popular design such as automobiles had just achieved a certain
>elegance and classic design which was gradually lost as the decade wore =
on.
>
>=A0=A0 The Fender Stratocaster reference below pertains to the "pre-CBS =
era" --
>Leo Fender sold his pioneering electric guitar company to CBS for big bu=
cks
>after fighting years of chronic illness (only to find a cure shortly
>thereafter!). This marked a change from a "hardware orientation" (how ca=
n we
>make a better guitar at lower cost) to a "profit orientation" (how can w=
e
>make the same products cheaper and sell them for more). New "marketing
>experts" tried to simulate progress by jazzing up the product appearance.
>This trend culminated in the ill considered release of many bad new desi=
gns
>which would never have been approved by Fender's admittedly autocratic
>management style. This whole episode represented "corporate America"
>destroying an art form by trying to milk it for money (and ironically lo=
sing
>their shirts). Although I can't clearly link this to 1964, it was during
>this period that many great American businesses seemed to be switching f=
rom
>"engineering companies" which were driven by real world facts of materia=
ls,
>tooling and production runs, to "professionally managed" companies opera=
ted
>by graduates of big business colleges, who claimed that the product was
>immaterial, and management technique was all. This was the age of
>"diversification" and the theory that bigness would automatically mean
>success.
>=A0=A0 Kennedy's assassination obviously poked a big hole in the feeling=
 that
>sleek, stylish American liberal governance was making the world a better
>place. The mid-sixties would be the last period where we could unabashed=
ly
>look forward to a brighter tomorrow, with big comfortable cars gliding o=
ver
>swift freeways to expansive suburban homes with lawns and color TV's. In
>hindsight, it is possible to see that the seeds of destruction had alrea=
dy
>been sown. Many villains can be identified, but the common thread was a =
move
>away from voluntary free enterprise and a respect for real facts, and
>towards solutions by government force and wishful thinking. These excess=
es
>brought forth many over-reactions and mis-directed responses, the result=
 of
>which was a massive loss of faith in human reason and freedom. At the sa=
me
>time, the culture of the fifties really did have many embedded
>irrationalities and injustices, which provided fodder for the revolution=
s of
>the sixties. some of which were long overdue. Many might debate this, bu=
t I
>seriously doubt that the "buttoned down" culture of the fifties could ha=
ve
>spawned the bearded, buckskinned mountain men of the last several decade=
s.=20
>=A0=A0 Many of us who lived through that period are now in a position to
>maturely reflect on the wins and losses. I would not be where I am today
>(technical head of a major professional audio company) had I not been
>"liberated" by the heady feeling of new music, new art forms, and new
>attitudes of the sixties. At the same time, there is much "recovery" fro=
m
>the pitfalls of hedonism and mystical thinking. If there is any value to
>this tract, it is to encourage some philosophical reflection and an atte=
mpt
>to improve the values of enlightened self-preservation which we can pass
>down to our descendants.=20
>Respectfully submitted
>Patrick Quilter.=20
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mill, Kirk [<mailto:[e-mail]%5D>mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 9:26 AM
>To: '[e-mail]'
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Can anyone say for sure why 1964 was such a benchmark year?=A0 The last =
silver
>money, the last good Winchesters, and the last of the best of a whole lo=
t
>more.
>
>and the last good Stratocasters (I know some of you know what I am talki=
ng
>about)
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 01:27:12 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges

Pat,

Now that you mention it I am aware that some early bridges spoke of steel=
, I'm
not sure exactly what that meant.=A0 Hadn't really thought about it until=
 you
brought it up, don't know about early skyscrapers either.=A0 Don't presen=
tly
have
time to search the questions out.=A0 I can only hope to provide a few clu=
es so
others can seek out the answers they need.=A0 I'm a strong advocate that =
we
should each seek our own path of study.=A0=20

If I remember right the first encounter I had with this information is in
Beeler's book "The Art of Blacksmithing."=A0 I have had it confirmed by s=
everal
smiths since then.=A0 It may have been a different book, we are dealing w=
ith my
mental junkpile.=A0 Ain't important enough to me to go look.

It may have been a cost issue where most were of iron as it was cheaper u=
ntil
the manufacture of steel became cheaper through economies of scale.=A0 Th=
at
might
coincide with '64.

Corrosion resistance may only be a modern rumor unrelated to why iron was=
, at
least mostly, used.=A0=20

I think it was at Conner Prairie a long time ago when I first heard the
corrosion resistance theory.=A0 I've pretty much gone with it but, steel =
having
been mentioned does raise the question.=A0 Was that the issue?

The original point is that if you can get ahold of some pieces of bridge
erected before 1964 most likely they are wrought iron.=A0 Wrought Iron is
preferred for much historic iron work.=A0 The first query was as to the
traditional way.

I was trying to encourage the real traditional way rather than the sort o=
f
traditional way.

I'd be willing to trade for a few hundred pounds.=A0=20

John...

At 10:28 PM 9/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>My childhood "Big Book of Bridges" made a distinction between "iron" and
>"steel" bridges. I managed to remember the name of the Eads Bridge in St
>Louis, which is easily found on the Web. According to the Boise State
>College Civil Engineering web site (and several other less rigorous
>resources) it was built in the 1870's and was "the first major bridge to=
 use
>steel". Iron bridges, of course, go back to the early 1800's if not soon=
er,
>in England. I agree that wrought iron is more corrosion resistant. There=
 is
>a famous uncoated wrought iron pillar in India which has stood for 2500
>years with only minor corrosion around the base. Could wrought iron have
>been used in smaller local bridges where thinner gauges and chancier
>maintenance were factors? Or was it called something like "black steel"
>which was mentioned on another large St Louis bridge?
>Pat Quilter
>PS, I was high school class of 1964.=20

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #384
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