Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beavertrapping)
It is imperative to check primary sources.
As a medical/biochemistry researcher I find
too many times that the tertiary resource barely
resembles the primary source-sometimes not
even a distant cousin.
LongWalker, I must be a pedantic fool. I found your
"natural thesis" on the mocs quite delicious. Thanks for
burning up your week's spare time.
Victoria
Ft. Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:53:49 -0500
From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references
I am gratified that some of my posts have generated discussions of
citing references, using more than one reference, and using first-hand
references. It is ironic that for my informal research on rendezvous
food, I was one of the very few on the list who bothered to cite my
references. Citing is proper even when the references are second or
third hand. Then at least the reader can judge the value of the
information. This is infinitely superior to spouting opinion or
supposition as fact. And even far better than stating "fact" and not
mentioning resources. And don't get me started about the unending chit
chat and personal communications on the list.
I am flattered by being the "lightning rod" for this discussion. But
make no mistake - I am not a historian. I would tremble if anyone
accused me of doing serious research. Come to think of it, I am just a
buckskinner trying to do better. I have no time to seek out the
original sources other than those on Dean Rudy's web site. I didn't
even have that when I informally researched rendezvous food. So give me
a break if I only cite the books I have purchased. I would much rather
cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent years researching the subject
than add to the excess of speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won
the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri."
In the hope of encouraging worthwhile contributions to the list, I
remain.
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
Jim Colburn wrote:
>
> Washtahay-
> At 11:52 PM 9/26/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >I, too wish specific references would be shared on this list.
> Wouldn't that be cool? Wow, a list we could share serious research and
> references on! I've gotten the feeling that the list isn't really
> interested in that, preferring to rely on anecdotes and possibly faulty
> repetitions of other peoples' work. An analysis of list traffic would
> indicate this is more of a chat list than a list ofr serious research-and
> if that is what the members want so be it.
>
> >many times
> >people write tomes with no backing documentation. Doesn't mean they are not
> >right, but if they aren't, the risk of others saying "I read it on the Net,"
> >becomes too great.
> I don't think its that much of a factor. Most people seem to be just
> looking for confirmation for their pre-conceived notions.
>
> >
> >References also help judge the value of the info. For example, quoting
> >Bernard DeVoto as documentation for bringing porter (beer) to a Rocky
> >Mountain fur trade event is suspect at best. You'd be better off tracking
> >down Miller's words, then go from there. Just because a tertiary resource
> >made it to publication, doesn't automatically make them correct. Primary
> and
> >secondary will most always be more "correct." . . .
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:50:13 -0400
From: "Laura Glise" <lglise@bellsouth.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Pancakes
12:30 p.m. PST
I'm glad we got on this discussion regarding food. It raises a question concerning a term I lifted from the drudy list of definitions. That word is "feastcakes" for pancakes.
I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I'm not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) I know that terms in the dictionary can be misleading. I had Russell refer to himself as a "bossloper," and Lanney pointed out to me bossloper was a modern-day term referring to the fur trade period. And suggested I refer to Osborne as a "lost Maine boy."
See what I mean? Honest mistake on my part but a mistake nonetheless.
So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset.
> I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes."
(I'
> m not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind
you.)
A while back when we were discussing the autobiography of Gurdon Hubbard, I
may have made mention of pancakes. He noted that on Sunday of each week, the
voyaguers of the Illinois Brigade were treated to pancakes and maple syrup,
instead of their regular regimen of tallow and corn. Perhaps they considered
them "feastcakes" as they ate them only once a week as part of their Sunday
feast. Just conjecture....but plausible as they were consumed rather
infrequently and were a feast compared to the regular daily ration.
Dave Kanger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:26:08 -0500
From: James A Lindberg <jal@sgi.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Summer Camp Outpost Program
I'm posting this from the Scouts-L list, hopefully some of you can help
him.
>Hi All
>
>I'm new to the List.
>
>Am looking for info and ideas for the council summer camp outpost area
>program. We have available an Indian village, trapper village and 1840's
>homestead. Looking to really improve the program for the year 2000. Any
>feedback will be much appreciated
>
>Thanks
>
>Jack Reece
.Scoutmaster, Troop 89
>WB 92-37 "Tail-Slappin" Beavers
>
>jackreece@mindspring.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:43:11 +0000
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes
Laura Glise wrote:
> I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." <snip>
> So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset.
Laura,
My vote goes to using the term "feastcakes". It would also be a good
reason to put a glossary in the back of your book. <G>
>
> What would I do without all of you?
As to your last question, there are many ladies that in a fit of
exasperation with us would say, "You would do just fine!", but I submit,
it wouldn't be as much fun. <G> We do have our uses even if just for
comic relief! Can't wait for the book to be done. I remain......
Impatiently,
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
P.S. Do you want me to keep you posted on our various little treks and
trips around WA. so you can try out your kit? I apologize but I didn't
think to mention the camp we just had over in Eastern Idaho the
17th/19th, for the whole Brigade. Several gals there and you would
surely have been welcome.
------------------------------
Date: 27 Sep 1999 14:44:43 -0700
From: turtle@uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references
> I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent
> years researching the subject than add to the excess of
> speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won
> the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri."
> .......................
>
> Glenn Darilek
Glenn,
Many well known historians (the Hanson's), teachers and museum personel (Denver Museum of Natural History for one), only use DeVoto as a last resource, over the years many of his statements and research has had flaws; wrong dates, locations, etc. We have only used Bernard as a second source in several museum and historical papers sumitted in our research do to these problems.
Agreed he was there in some cases, the question has always been: was his writings changed when edited, or where they incorrect when written ? If he is the only one you have for a reference, that's all one can do, but most (not all) look a little further in their research.
Take care - we leave as friends,
Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec.
State College, Pennsylvania
___________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:09:20 -0600
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes
Laura,
Why not leave the term in? Sounds like a good fur trade expression that is just not in use today. Give a note on a explanation, if you feel the least bit uncomfortable with it. But to me, colorful words, expressions and even attitudes can make what ever you are writing only better. We have lost alot of the "old" ways of talking and writing. (And maybe some of it is for the better.) If you worried that your
readers may misinterpret it, find a way to solve the dilemma. But use it if you can.
Laura Glise wrote:
> 12:30 p.m. PST
>
> I'm glad we got on this discussion regarding food. It raises a question concerning a term I lifted from the drudy list of definitions. That word is "feastcakes" for pancakes.
>
> I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I'm not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) I know that terms in the dictionary can be misleading. I had Russell refer to himself as a "bossloper," and Lanney pointed out to me bossloper was a modern-day term referring to the fur trade period. And suggested I refer to Osborne as a "lost Maine boy."
>
> See what I mean? Honest mistake on my part but a mistake nonetheless.
>
> So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset.
> > I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent
> > years researching the subject than add to the excess of
> > speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won
> > the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri."
> > .......................
> >
> > Glenn Darilek
>
> Glenn,
>
> Many well known historians (the Hanson's), teachers and museum personel (Denver Museum of Natural History for one), only use DeVoto as a last resource, over the years many of his statements and research has had flaws; wrong dates, locations, etc. We have only used Bernard as a second source in several museum and historical papers sumitted in our research do to these problems.
>
> Agreed he was there in some cases, the question has always been: was his writings changed when edited, or where they incorrect when written ? If he is the only one you have for a reference, that's all one can do, but most (not all) look a little further in their research.
>
> Lee "Turtle" Boyer
Hey guys,
If you recall about a year ago there was some dicussion about DeVoto and a mistake about location, time, etc. on one of the artists on the Upper Missouri, got quite lengthy between Clay Landry, Allen Chronister, Buck Conner and several others. They found several errors, depending on what book they where referring to, pretty interesting how one editor varied from another telling the same story.
"May the spirit be with you"
D.L."Concho" Smith
Livingston, MO.
Historical Coordinator - Missouri
___________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: 27 Sep 1999 17:14:09 -0700
From: Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references
> If you recall about a year ago there was some dicussion about DeVoto and a mistake about location, time, etc. on one of the artists on the Upper Missouri, got quite lengthy between Clay Landry, Allen Chronister, Buck Conner and several others. They found several errors, depending on what book they where referring to, pretty interesting how one editor varied from another telling the same story.
>
> D.L."Concho" Smith
_______________________________________
That was on the AMM list, not the Hist list Concho, it was a discussion about location, time and confussion on DeVoto's statements to the press. I'll share a little of that very long discussion that covered a week or more.
Please excuse the ? that for some reason where originally ', some of them change when saving this to a file in Windows.
Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:18:35 -0600 (MDT)
Clay,
One of the brothers of the AMM has sent me a fax on our dicussion of Alfred Jacob Miller, a copy of a page of
the[ revised and enlarged first edition ] of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" by Marvin C. Ross. (The one I
have is the [ standard first edition ] of the same, and my page number for the quote showed earlier was on XII ).
Page XIX
DeVoto believs that Miller made this excursion with Stewart in 1938, [22] but could not find evidence to support that view. It is true that John Crawford added this footnote to a letter to Stewart from New Orleans on October 11, 1838: ?
Miller is expected here soon. I think he got your letter, his pictures, etc. are here at his old quarters ib Chartres Street; what process he has made I cannot say, but I fear he seems rather lazy.?
[23] (the rest of this information I did not receive as it continues on the next page.)
[22] "Across the Wide Missouri", 359. (In a review of the first edition of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller"
published in the new York Herald-Tribune, July 22, 1951, DeVoto pointed out correcting that "I was mistaken
in saying that he believed Miller went with Sir William Drummond Stewart to the Far West again in 1838".)
[23] From a letter in the Missouri Historical Society. Clay, I guess it depends on which edition of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" you have for reference is how one would consider the facts. But when looking at the statement from "Artists of the West" it seems to have muddied the waters, then DeVoto?s remarks in the New York Herald-Tribune
probably was an attempt to clear what was said before.
(On August 10, 1951 the New York Herald-Tribune quoted Mr. DeVoto as questioning his information in a statement, ? After additional research by one of my aids, these sketches
and drawings may have been copies of other artists works, used for reference by Mr. Miller?. According to the reporter, Bernard was still puzzled by the information of his earlier statement.)
By now everyone is probably tired of my findings and I?m not sure what the purpose continuing on with this would do, so Clay lets go with DeVoto?s last statement in the New York Herald-Tribune of August 10, 1951 for now until additional information becomes available.
Thats what makes research so interesting, there's additional information that changes history over and over
again as its found. The more you look at one little part the more it changes like this Miller thing. As Clay stated
earlier "Alfred Jacob Miller was never on the Upper Missouri River-he went to the Horse Creek rendezvous in
1837 and returned via ..............".
Then you read the other statements by DeVoto from the New York Herald-Tribune, then you wonder did he go with Stewart in 1838 ?
I'm now looking at information where the hell Stewart was in 1838 and what was recorded about his moves, never ending no matter which way you go in your research. But the bottom
line is as Clay Landry or others will agree I'm sure, do the research, then do more and so on. That is what is the interesting part of our sport, and Clay thank you for your time and hope to visit with you soon.
Buck
**********
Buck,
Sorry for the delay in reaponding to your post on Stewart and Miller's where-abouts in 1838. I spent the lst
few days down on the Powder River getting my cabin ready for hunting season-won't be long!!
Your findings and discussion on DeVoto's statements were very interesting. Seems that even the "Great" historians get cross wired! It is relatively easy to find out were
Stewart was located the summer of 1838-where all good mountaineers would be- on the way to Rendezvous-waugh!
The missionaries who traveled with the Dripps rendezvous caravan to the Wind river Rendezvous of 1838 wrote; "Next to the guide was the wagon of Capt Stewart with four mules attached. The owner of this outfit was an English Gent. traveling for pleasure,,," -- Cushing Eells.
Stewart headed back to St. Louis in August as was in St. Louis by September 1838. He had received the news of his brother John's deathe and was making plans to return home.
According to Ron Tyler, in his book on Alfred Jacob Miller, Miller was moving his studio from New Orleans to Baltimore in July of 1838.
Wonder where ole Bernard got his original idea that Miller and Stewart where on the upper Missouri river? Go figure!
Clay
Aux Ailments de Pays!
**********
Clay,
How high up the Missouri do Bodmer's paintigs go? Can you identify the exact location of many of the paintings on the landscape?
Do you think it would be possible to do an analysis of vegetation trends along the Wild and Scenic Missouri
from the art of Point, Bodmer, and others?
Dave
**********
Dave
Bodmer and Prince Maximilian went all the way up to Fort McKenzie in 1833-located at the mouth of the Marias and Missouri. One of his paintings is of two Indian tribes at war just outside the walls of the Fort, whilest the white guys look on form behind the walls.
In looking at the Bodmer art I doubt that you can tell much about the grass and shrub species along the river........
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado
Aux Ailments de Pays!
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------------------------------
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