Getting back to the tipi dwelling thing. Computer crashed again and just got back on. We are here to stay for a while. ;-}
I do not have the journals describing only rocks were used to place on the covers of tipis, but I am looking up the ones I can after seeing them quoted. But lets look at another way this could be done.
Playing Devils' advocate here, so bear with me.....
What about pegs and rocks. I have hundreds of pictures of tipis dating from the 1860s' to 1920s', they all show pegs. These are from the Denver Historical Society to Nebraska to Kansas and to Montana. Don't have Canadian. But they are all taken when there is no snow severe weather. I have seen tipi rings out West. But I never thought to see if there were possibly peg holes between the rocks. When I was up at Paradise Valley in 78, I pegged my tipi down and had to leave several of the pegs in the ground when I couldn't get them out. Don't worry, I broke them off even with the surface so no injury
might happen to someone tripping over them. Now the point is, when I went back in 88 for the next National at The Valley, I was able to find my sight and what was left of the pegs were still there and some holes from the pegs I did retrieve.
That ground out there is not forgiving. You do leave your mark.
I could see the ladies setting up a tipi with pegs (if they have them) and then putting rocks in-between to cut out the cold wind.
This would seem more stable. There is not written documentation of this happening...but a thought.
But what is documented, is that all the tipi photos of Buffalo hide tipis does show peg holes.
Saw Larry Belitz Buffalo hide tipi at National Pow wow. It was definitely warmer in that lodge than any of the canvas lodges.
So the skin hide appears to keep the wind out better than canvas..so the lining may not have been as necessary.
For another question.....I own a 10', 15' and 17' lodge. The ten foot does not need a lining for a fire. I do sometimes put in a 2' lining just to get the wind off my back and keep the cold out.
The Elk robe hides I was referring to in another post, along with a buf. robe, do not have fur on and therefore are light weight to put up on the poles and act as a make shift little lining in the tipi.
The 15' I put a partial lining in to draw the fire up. Do not always have to put in a full lining. The 17' I use a full lining. My linings are in 3 sections.
Many of my old time pictures show "calico", paisley and flowered material used for linings. Then we have the Muslin white lining. The "fitted" lining is a more modern article.
Unfortunately most the information is after the 1850s.
There are also some sketch book drawings of the Sioux and Kiowa showing interiors of tipis. These are very rare. The "Pictorial History of the Oglala Sioux" is a good one. Now these are still after the Fur trade era, but deal in their past history.
Ewers, in the "Plains Indian Paintings" shows a lovely Blackfoot lining that appears to be before 1850. It is at the Smithsonian.
I am trying to get information on that for my own mental stability.
Unfortunately, the artist and writers of the past were more interested in person and his or her clothing to draw good pictures about tipis. It just didn't seen to be of interest as it is now. Darnit. And why couldn't Catlin and the others spend some time drawing better pictures of tipis???
Linda Holley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:30:38 +0000
From: R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tipi Dwelling
Linda Holley wrote:
>
> Getting back to the tipi dwelling thing. Computer crashed again and just got back on. We are here to stay for a while. ;-}
>
> I do not have the journals describing only rocks were used to place on the covers of tipis, but I am looking up the ones I can after seeing them quoted. But lets look at another way this could be done.
>
> Playing Devils' advocate here, so bear with me.....
Linda,
Thanks for the additional insight. Very interesting and thought
provoking observations to add to the mix. <G> I remain......
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:49:00 -0700
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <J2Hearts@norcalis.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs
CT,
Some great thoughts. I'll check out those references. Have pursued
Miller's paintings with a magnifying glass; some items are fairly clear,
others are sort of left to speculation. I tend to think that the military
type of that era were most prevalent. I have seen some with "vertical"
rowels and some with "horizontal" rowels, mostly from dime to nickel size
diameters.
Thanks for your input.
john Funk
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <CTOAKES@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 5:51 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Spurs
> In a message dated 8/26/99 8:15:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> J2Hearts@norcalis.net writes:
>
> << Many came from the east .........what
> design spurs would those folks have used? Rev. War designs, typical
English
> stuff.....what? >>
>
> If you can get a copy of "The Book of The Continental Souldier by Harold
L.
> Peterson thru inter library loan you will find the information you need
on
> pages 215 -216. But to quote: "Revolutionary spurs might be made of
iron
> for the simpler types, but brass was commonn and silver was used for
better
> specimens. Sometimes the arch es were hinged, but usually they were
solid.
> The combination of one stud and one buckle was common for attaching the
strap
> that passed over the instep, while two studs were usual for the lower
strap.
> Sometimes, however, there were simply double loops at the ends of the arms
> for straps to be sewed fast or otherwise attached. George Washington, for
> one, had silver spurs with such loops from which short lenghts of chain
held
> both buckles and studs. The mecks might be straitht but more often curved
> slightly downwards. " Many had Rowels in a star shape or wheel with
> serrated dege and many had just a straight shank ending in a blunt end.
And
> if fact from the illustrations I have seen and played with (I own an
original
> 1700's set that I ride in) they were not much different than the modern
> english riding spurs available today as far as the neck/shank designs
> available. It should be remembered that the modern english riding
equipment
> has a long military history that keep styles consistant even into modern
> times.
>
> In the "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution"
by
> George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic on page 249 you will find pictures
of
> several styles of original spurs ranging from silver to tinned iron. If
you
> were to look at illustration #5 and then go to a Dover (modern english
> equestrian) catalog you could order that spur today and be correct as long
as
> you use leather spur straps.
>
> Sorry this reply took so long but we have spent more time camping the last
> few weeks than we have at the computer.
>
> Your humble servant
>
> C.T. Oakes
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:54:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Jim Bridger's height
Laura:
"about six feet in height" according to the book Jim Bridger by J.CECIL
ALTER, p.268.
- -----------------------------------------
The American Indian: the only surviving descendents of Ephraim and
Manasseh the sons of Joseph - one of the 12 sons of Jacob [Israel].
They are all the Tribe of Joseph, no matter what Sub-Tribe they may be
called.
- -----------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:02:23 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
Dang!! Good stuff.
thanks
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Huber <huberfam@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>; <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk throwing.
> There seems to be two questions going on here. 1.) Was a tomahawk =
ever
> thrown at Rendezvous? (Apparently as a "sport" as we do it today) 2.) =
Was a
> tomahawk ever used as a thrown weapon in battle? (The responses seem =
to be
> towards that unasked question.) I know of no documentation of =
tomahawk
> competitions at rendezvous but there are several accounts of Indians =
using
> the thrown tomahawk as a weapon of war. The battle ax is an ancient =
weapon
> going back to European and Asian warfare. The Franks designed a =
"throwing
> ax" that has been reproduced, so the military application is in the =
records.
> My favorite example of a thrown tomahawk used in American warfare was =
the
> Cherry Valley battle of Nov. 11, 1778. A combined force of Tory forces
> under the command of Walter Butler, Senecas under Litle Beard and =
Mohawks
> under Joseph Brant attacked the American soldiers and civilians of =
Colonel
> Ichabod Alden. A fort named after the Colonel was the main defense of =
the
> area but of little use to the farmers or, for that matter, to the =
American
> commander. Allan Eckert in his book "Wilderness War" offers this =
account:
> "Colonel Ichabod Alden had run out the front door, heading towards the
> main road and fort. All the attackers were pretty much occupied and,
> incredibly, at first no one saw the commander escaping. He was =
halfway
> down to the road before one of the Mohawks with Brant suddenly =
shouted,
> "There goes the Coronel!" Instantly he and several others raced after =
him,
> but by now Alden had a great head start. Seeing what was happening,
> Brant...tomahwak still in hand,...was off,...angling diagonally =
through the
> woods in an effort to cut off Alden before he could reach the fort./ =
At the
> fort the log gate was still being held open a man's width to allow him =
entry.
> Alden might have made it had he continued running without breaking =
stride.
> However, hearing the sound of pursuit and looking over his shoulder, =
he
> observed Brant chasing him and at this he commited his final act of
> stupidity. He abruptly stopped and leveled his flintlock pistol =
toward the
> Mohawk war chief.
> In that same instant Brant, still thirty feet distant, threw his =
tomahawk.
> Before the trigger could be squeezed, the blade caught Alden in the =
center
> of his forehead and killed him. Those in the fort could see what was
> happening, but due to its poor and unfinished construction, they were
> unable to shoot well without badly exposing themselves.
> Ignoring the scattered bullets,...Brant ran up to Alden, jerked the
> tomahawk out of the officer's head and scalped him."
> Of couse, this is a dramatized account of the incident but it was well
> known at the time. Eckert gives "Annals of Tyron County" by William
> Campbell and "The Letters of J. N. Clyde" as documented sources. =
There is
> at least one other such account in this book of a thrown tomahawk =
bringing
> down a fleeing man. =20
> Like others, I found the idea of throwing away one's weapon foolish =
and,
> therefore, unpracticed. But research continues to educate me of this =
time
> I love so well. Now, I hope, it can educate others.
>=20
> "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
> =20
> At 07:32 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Douglas Hepner wrote:
> > Well I probably woudn't throw mine at an enemy in a defensive =
situation
> >but I have been known to throw mine at a rabbit if I can get close =
enough.
> >I reckon if I was in Blackfoot country and didn't want them boys to =
know I
> >was there or if I didn't want to waiste my ammo on a rabbit, I might =
> As a wee pup, I worked the tobacco fields of New Bern,
> North Carolina...
> ahh, the glory days of working from sunup to sundown for
> $2.00 an hour!
>
In Lancaster Pennsylvania we where getting $ .75 an hour in the early 50's, and we worked our tails off, think you where over paid Lee.
> Anyhow... we harvested the leaves as they started to
> change color, not the plant... we'd often hit a field
> 4 - 5 times before the field was stripped
> and ready to replant. We usually took the leaves 3-4 at
> a time off a plant, then moved on to the next.
>
We would do the same.
> Even before harvesting, we'd "sucker" the plants, that is, > walk the rows and remove all the off shoots so that only
> one main stem remained.
same process in PA.
> After harvesting, the leaves were sewn into loose bundles,
> hung over a stick in a barn (hence the name stick-barn),
> and allowed to dry until they were a golden yellow color.
same process in PA.
> They did not dry brittle, but had more of a leathery
> texture when we took them down to bag for market.
> They were tied loose so that air could circulate around
> them. About two weeks in the NC summer was sufficient to
> do the job.
>
This was when we would twist them into the small "twists", then they are left hanging for another period of time, for length of time I have forgotten now guys.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________
The AMM Journal.
The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403
ATTN: Jon Link
Subscription rate for the T&LR is $20 for
a year - qtr issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov.
_____________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
> I've lurked a long time but as a Kentucky tobacco farmer I feel I must come forward on this subject. The process we use now is to cut
> the plant when it is mostly a rich yellow and then spear it on a tobacco stick (usually four stalks at a time if it is big tobacco) and hang
> it in an airish place for it to dry. When it gets a nice shade of brown and it has some moisture to it (not krinkly) then we take the leaves
> off and bale them now. I chew it and grow my own and make my own twists so the way I go about it is I take a handful of leaves and tie then
> together at the top and let them cure some more after they are stripped always making sure they are moist. I taste every hand until it has
> the flavor (strength) I'm comfortable with and then I fix some with honey sprinkled on over a pot bellied stove and the rest I just twist and
> chew straight. As far as time goes, most people here in central Kentucky have already got their tobbacco hanging in the barns. It's not
> rained here since June 24. I have got to kill 17 rattlers this year, I guess their coming off Mammoth Cave Park looking for water. Please
> forgive me for my grammatical and spelling errors, I'm a farmer not a professor.
> Robert Bigbear
>
Hey Big Bear,
Thank you for the information, I knew there had to be a grower out there somewhere. You mentioned rattlesnakes, they're having the same problem with them in central Pennsylvania with no rain for a long period.
Good luck.
Later,
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________
The AMM Journal.
The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403
ATTN: Jon Link
Subscription rate for the T&LR is $20 for
a year - qtr issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov.
_____________________________________
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
Tobacco is a weed and like most weeds it dosen't need a whole lot of water to survive. However, it does need more water than it got in my part of Kentucky this year to be healthy. It can grow in most soils (its not particularly fond of clay, however)
but the soils must be of a certain pH for a monetary crop (hence the need for fertilize). The most remarkable thing about the plant to me is how it loves the heat. Too much can burn the plant up, but otherwise warm weather really helps it with the right
amount of water. The plants I grow for my own use have no pesticides, herbicides, or fertilize applied. I plant them in sandy soil totally disregarding pH and baby them along. If it don't rain enough I can add water. The way I have the soil fixed in the
mound then excess water can run off without killing the plant. For some reason too much water just stunts the growth. I usually produce four stalks like that, and after preparing them I put the old stalks back on the sandy ground to decompose. These four
I make my twists out of for myself and two old timers that prefer this to store bought but don't grow it any more themselves and it is usually enough to get us through the whole year as we don't eat the stuff like some chewers I know. :) The only other
advice I have to offer is to just plant by the signs. My grandfather taught me and I will teach it to my kids. They really work. This is why I hate to post anything. I'm just too long winded.
Your most hon. svn't.,
Robert Bigbear
Ratcliff wrote:
> Hey Robert
> Great stuff....stop lurking and jump in more often. I don't use tobacco, but if I did, I would really feel good about using what I had grown myself. What conditions are required for tobacco to grow...at least well enough for a person's private needs?
